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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
As I said, "so to speak".
I look at it like, dropping a stone in a pond and all the ripples go out, there is a leading edge.
So with the universe expanding there could be a leading edge(so to speak) or it never expanded and has always been there.

No, that is definitely the *wrong* way to look at it.

The expansion of the universe simply means that the distances between things *inside* of it increase over time. When this happens, each individual point sees all the other points moving away from it.

Another technicality is that all points see the background radiation as evenly distributed across their sky, so each point sees the same thing as every other in broad terms.

There is no edge to the universe as a whole (as opposed to just the observable universe). All points see essentially the same thing, unlike what would happen at an edge.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
OK, that title was rather misleading.

They found they type of molecule that *would have been* the first type to appear. They didn't find it when it would have initially existed, but much, much later.

So, the prediction is that helium hydride would have been the first type of molecule that ever formed. They did NOT make the detection of that original formation.

Instead, they found this molecule in a much more recent event. But it was the first time this molecule had been detected in space.

I can see why that article would lead to confusion.
Yes, that was why I tried to explain a bit more in my post. The first molecule ever was probably not even formed there but was formed elsewhere first. This was just the first place where we could analyze the data from and definitely see the evidence for that molecule. If one read only the title it would be easy to get a wrong impression.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And nobody said that it does. But it is a first step in that direction: life could not exist without those amino acids existing first.
To be fair I have seen some laymen with a rather low scientific literacy rate make the error of claiming that the Miller Urey experiment "proved abiogenesis". And we know that is not ture, it only showed that one of the early steps was possible. Before that time it was likely that creationists were arguing that abiogenesis was impossible because the first step is impossible. Now adays I run into some creationists that think the only step in the last 70 years was the Miller Urey experiment and are completely unaware of all of the steps that have been solved.

And one "problem" of abiogenesis is that we may never know which pathway was taken because some of the problems of abiogenesis have been solved in more than just one way.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Without God in the picture it's just; Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.”

This is what is meant by theologies of despair in the Affirmations of Humanism. Your religion has taught you that nothing else matters but what it taught you. It's convinced you that your life is meaningless without belief in its god, and apparently you have accepted that.

3 What do people gain from all their labors at which they toil under the sun?

You might know firsthand had you not been taught that life is empty and meaningless without a belief in a god and an afterlife. You won't find the meaning of life in your holy book, nor by looking through the nihilistic lenses of a faith-based confirmation bias that shows you the empty world that you have accepted exists by faith. I went through life otherwise, and have enjoyed it. I have a rich collection of memories, of people and places, and of assorted accomplishments. This is what life can offer.

Ecclesiastes:"Moreover, when God gives someone wealth and possessions, and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil—this is a gift of God."

Here's another reason I wouldn't go to a holy book for guidance. Didn't you just say that life is meaningless? Didn't the book ask "What do people gain from all their labors at which they toil under the sun?" My answer is that they can gain much. Now the book calls financial success, and the health, freedom, and leisure necessary to enjoy them, a gift. I agree. These are among the things that give life meaning. Add love, beauty, and freedom from shame and remorse, and that's a pretty meaningful and satisfying life.

Then you don't get the book, because it's pointing to God as the only source of meaning. "Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind."

Meaning is found in fearing and obeying a deity? We have a duty to believe these things and do them? That is simply not true. My own life is testimony to that.

How are you going to convince people who find meaning without theism that they need theism for life to have meaning?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have yet to see you produce any evidence at all for abiogenesis. In fact no one on this thread has.

If you cared about the evidence, you'd have had it long ago. It's just a Google search away. I've learned long ago to not spend time trying to teach a person what he has a stake in not believing. It turns out, "show me the evidence" is an effort to make oneself look as if he evaluates evidence, or that the critical thinker lacks it if he can keep saying, "where's your evidence, where's your evidence" as you are doing now.

I have a nice list of links on abiogenesis organized by subtopics, which I've recopied dozens of times in these threads, with nary a creationist willing to look at it or comment on it, so I don't do that any more: inorganic matter to amino acids, amino acids to proteins, nucleotides to nucleic acids, RNA to primitive ribosomes, and lipids to cell membranes.

If you want to protest that your intentions have been mischaracterized here and your interest is sincere, then make the fist step. Find an article addressing evidence for abiogenesis from an academic source (creationist websites will not give one a scientific education), review it, and bring it back here to summarize what you learned and any questions you may have. Jack Szostek is a prominent molecular biologist who has made a couple of videos on the topic available on YouTube. We can start with that if you're interest is sincere. It will require an investment of time and attention.

As I said I don't care about evolution if you can't show why life exists. I have no interest in point A to B. It doesn't matter.

Are you expecting others to believe that you would suddenly take an interest in evolution if the abiogenesis pathway were worked out? You don't care about evolution or abiogenesis except to undermine them and substitute creationism.

Also, this is another one of those attempt to imply that there is reason behind your position - that if you only had abiogenesis data, that evolutionary data would become relevant to you.

I wish you could see the face you present in these discussions rather than the one you think project. You would stop ,making these arguments to people who know the science. You have zero chance of accomplishing anything except showing the folly of faith-based belief, and how it affects the ability to understand reality. The critical thinker thinks, there but for the grace of critical thinking go I, not, what a liberating way of evaluating reality that must be, and how can I follow in those footsteps.

Producing some of the compounds used in life like RNA and polypeptides, is not leading to life

But it is. So is showing how the monomers organized into long chain polymers. You will never learn this material if you assume before looking at it that it is impossible. That should be a conclusion based in a review of evidence, which you haven't done, not a faith-based premise made before looking at the evidence. Why do you think that an uninformed opinion can persuade others that have learned the material and disagree with you? Why would they defer to the judgment of somebody who steadfastly resists learning about that which he has rejected out of hand?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
That depends on *how* it is done in the lab. If it is done with minimal intervention except for bringing the original chemicals together, it *would* be evidence it could happen in nature.
Actually it would be evidence that it takes an intelligent being to create life and people have to borrow from already existing material to do that.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Nope I have asked multiple times and no one gave me any answers or mentioned any experiment.

"All RNA and DNA Base Types Are Found in Meteorites, Study Claims"

It is evidence that adds weight to the hypothesis, that the building blocks of life on Earth originally came from space. The simple fact is we don't yet have a full understanding, but none of the evidence we have supports the appeal to inexplicable magic and mystery in creation myths like Genesis.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
"All RNA and DNA Base Types Are Found in Meteorites, Study Claims"

It is evidence that adds weight to the hypothesis, that the building blocks of life on Earth originally came from space. The simple fact is we don't yet have a full understanding, but none of the evidence we have supports the appeal to inexplicable magic and mystery in creation myths like Genesis.
Or some may have come from space. At one time it was argued that they could not form naturally without life. Well that has been shown to be wrong.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
No, that is definitely the *wrong* way to look at it.

The expansion of the universe simply means that the distances between things *inside* of it increase over time. When this happens, each individual point sees all the other points moving away from it.

Another technicality is that all points see the background radiation as evenly distributed across their sky, so each point sees the same thing as every other in broad terms.

There is no edge to the universe as a whole (as opposed to just the observable universe). All points see essentially the same thing, unlike what would happen at an edge.

Our solar system has an edge/end. Our galaxy has an edge/and. Our universe may have an edge. Just because we cant see any edge of the universe doesn't mean there isn't one.
If it started expanding at a point, then went in all directions, its naive to think there isnt an edge. (Can't say end because its still expanding out and in itself
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
No, it hasn't. Wishful thinking. A few Amino acids don't equal life.

Amino acids are one of the first organic molecules to appear on Earth. As the building blocks of proteins, amino acids are linked to almost every life process, but they also have key roles as precursor compounds in many physiological processes.

It is very far from wishful thinking actually.

"Scientists at the University of Glasgow say they have taken their first tentative steps towards creating 'life' from inorganic chemicals potentially defining the new area of 'inorganic biology'."

That was in 2011, so your hand waving here is at least 11 years out of date. Time to find a new gap for your apologetics to insert magic into. Or will you deny this fact when it happens, like you do with species evolution?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Are you expecting others to believe that you would suddenly take an interest in evolution if the abiogenesis pathway were worked out?
Here's what I find extremely amusing about all this: you are trying to convince me to believe in miracles.
1. Something that I can't observe happening. 2. Something that we have never observed happening naturally in the world. 3. You believe it because it fits into your belief system. 4. You accept it only by faith because you cannot possibly observe it.

If you will not accept my miracles why would I accept yours?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Amino acids are one of the first organic molecules to appear on Earth. As the building blocks of proteins, amino acids are linked to almost every life process, but they also have key roles as precursor compounds in many physiological processes.

It is very far from wishful thinking actually.

"Scientists at the University of Glasgow say they have taken their first tentative steps towards creating 'life' from inorganic chemicals potentially defining the new area of 'inorganic biology'."

That was in 2011, so your hand waving here is at least 11 years out of date. Time to find a new gap for your apologetics to insert magic into. Or will you deny this fact when it happens, like you do with species evolution?
Here's what I find extremely amusing about all this: you are trying to convince me to believe in miracles.
1. Something that I can't observe happening. 2. Something that we have never observed happening naturally in the world. 3. You believe it because it fits into your belief system. 4. You accept it only by faith because you cannot possibly observe it.
 
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