"There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood."

[CMike]

Do you know why the Hebrew Union College removed the word 'soul' from the Torah in its translation of 1962?


if thats what you believe, then Judiasm is no longer basing its beliefs and teachings on the Torah....which is very sad.

The word used in the Torah (nephesh) means the living person or animal. It doesnt mean a separate entity within the body of a living person.

Numbers 31:28 As a tax for Jehovah, you should take from the soldiers who went out into the battle one soul out of every 500, of the people, the herd, the donkeys, and the flock.
The 'one soul' in this case is clearly the living person or animal.

Joshua 22:5 Only be very careful to carry out the commandment and the Law that Moses the servant of Jehovah gave you, by loving Jehovah your God, by walking in all his ways, by keeping his commandments, by sticking to him, and by serving him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
Again the 'soul' in this case is the living person who eats and breaths.

1Kings 2:4 And Jehovah will carry out his promise that he made concerning me: ‘If your sons pay attention to their way by walking faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, there will never fail to be a man of your line sitting on the throne of Israel.’
Walking faithfully with all your heart and 'soul' shows that it is a living person being called a 'soul'
Living breath person. Not some mystical invisible spirit inside a living person.


And the most convicing verse in the Torah which proves the soul is the living breathing person is this:

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

The soul dies. It is not eternal.

Yup, and it's referring the soul.

We have a body and a soul.

 

[CMike]

Do you know why the Hebrew Union College removed the word 'soul' from the Torah in its translation of 1962? There was no Hebrew Union College translation. The New York Times article was referencing the (then) new Jewish Publication Society translation.

Furthermore, there is justification for the change in translation. I would point out that the late, revered, Aryeh Kaplan translated לנפש חיה as "living creature." Also Joseph Hertz, who was the Orthodox Chief Rabbi in Great Britain, and whose chumash was for years the chumash in the English speaking world, noted that "living creature" was, perhaps, a better translation than "soul."

It seems that Aryeh Kaplan disagrees with you.

The Real You

NAKED BEFORE GOD

Now imagine the mental activity of a disembodied soul standing naked before God. The reducing valve is gone entirely. The mind is open and transparent. Things can be perceived in a way that is impossible to a mind held back by a body and nervous system. The visions and understanding are the most delightful bliss imaginable (as per: "the righteous, sitting with their crowns on their head, delighting in the shine of the Shechina").

This is what Job meant when he said (19:26), "And when after my skin is destroyed, then without my flesh shall I see God."

But then, an individual will also see himself in a new light. Every thought and memory will be lucid, and he will see himself for the first time without the static and jamming that shuts out most thoughts.

Even in our mortal physical state, looking at oneself can sometimes be pleasing and at other times very painful. Certain acts leave us proud and pleased with ourselves. Others cause excruciating pain, especially when we are caught.

Imagine standing naked before God, with your memory wide open, completely transparent without any jamming mechanism or reducing valve to diminish its force. You will remember everything you ever did and see it in a new light. You will see it in the light of the unshaded spirit, or, if you will, in God's own light that shines from one end of creation to the other. The memory of every good deed and mitzvah will be the sublimest of pleasures, as our tradition speaks of the World to Come.

But your memory will also be open to all the things of which you are ashamed. They cannot be rationalized away or dismissed. You will be facing yourself, fully aware of the consequences of all your deeds. We all know the terrible shame and humiliation experienced when one is caught in the act of doing something wrong. Imagine being caught by one's own memory with no place to escape...

We are taught that the judgement of the wicked lasts 12 months. Even the naked soul can gradually learn to live with this shame and forget it, and the pain eventually subsides. It may be more than coincidence that 12 months is also the length of time required for something to be forgotten in Talmudic law. Thus, one mourns a parent for 12 months and says a special blessing upon seeing a close friend after this period of time.

(Of course, there is an exception to this rule. There are the nonbelievers and worst of sinners reckoned in the Talmud. These individuals have nothing else but their shame and have no escape from everlasting torment.)

But even temporary torment is beyond our imagination. Nachmanides writes that all the suffering of Job would not compare to an instant in Gehenom. Rabbi Nachman of Breslov says the same of a man who suffered for years from the most indescribable torments: It is still better than a single burn in Gehenom. Mental torture cannot be compared to the mere physical...

WHAT THE DEAD THINK OF US

There is another dimension of immortality discussed in the Talmud (Brachot 18b). It asks: Do the dead know what is happening in the world of the living?

After an involved discussion, the Talmud concludes that they do have this awareness. The Kabbalistic philosophers explain that the soul achieves a degree of unity with God, the source of all knowledge, and therefore also partakes of His omniscience.

When a person dies, he enters a new world of awareness. He exists as a disembodied soul and yet is aware of what is happening in the physical world. Gradually, he learns to focus on any physical event he wishes. At first this is a frightening experience. You know that you are dead. You can see your body lying there, with your friends and relatives standing around crying over you. We are taught that immediately after death, the soul is in a great state of confusion.

What is the main source of its attention? What draws its focus more than anything else?

We are taught that it is the body. Most people identify themselves with their bodies, as we have discussed earlier. It is difficult for a soul to break this thought habit, and therefore, for the first few days, the soul is literally obsessed with its previous body. This is alluded to in the verse, "And his soul mourns for him" (Job 14:22).

This is especially true before the body is buried. The soul wonders what will happen to the body. It finds it to be both fascinating and frightening to watch its own body's funeral arrangements and preparation for burial.

Of course, this is one of the reasons why Judaism teaches us that we must have the utmost respect for human remains. We can imagine how painful it is for a soul to see its recent body cast around like an animal carcass. The Torah therefore forbids this.

This is also related to the question of autopsies. We can imagine how a soul would feel when seeing its body lying on the autopsy table, being dissected and examined.

The disembodied soul spends much of its time learning how to focus. It is now seeing without physical eyes, using some process which we do not even have the vocabulary to describe. The Kabbalists call this frightening process Kaf HaKela -- like being thrown with a sling from one end of the world to another. It is alluded to in the verse, "The soul of my master shall be bound up in the bundle of life with the Lord your God, and the souls of your enemies shall He sling out, as from the hollow of a sling" (1-Samuel 25:29). The soul perceives things flashing into focus from all over, and is in a state of total confusion and disorientation.

One of the few things that the soul has little difficulty focusing on is its own body. It is a familiar pattern and some tie seems to remain. To some extent, it is a refuge from its disorientation.

EARTHLY HABITATION

The body begins to decompose soon after it is buried. The effect of watching this must be both frightening and painful. The Talmud teaches us, "Worms are as painful to the dead as needles in the flesh of the living, as it is written, 'his flesh grieves for him' (Job 14:22)." Most commentaries write that this refers to the psychological anguish of the soul in seeing its earthly habitation in a state of decay.

The Kabbalists call this Chibut HaKever, the punishment of the grave. We are taught that what happens to the body in the grave can be an even worse experience than Gehenom.

The more one is obsessed with one's body during his lifetime, the more he will be obsessed with it after death.

This varies among individuals. The more one is obsessed with one's body and the material world in general during his lifetime, the more he will be obsessed with it after death. For the person to whom the material was everything, this deterioration of the body is most painful.

On the other extreme, the person who was immersed in the spiritual may not care very much about the fate of his body at all. He finds himself very much at home in the spiritual realm and might quickly forget about his body entirely...

Many of us think of death as a most frightening experience. Tzaddikim, on the other hand, have looked forward to it. Shortly before his death, Rabbi Nachman of Breslav said, "I very much want to divest myself of this garment that is my body."

 

[CMike]

In case anyone is interested.


What is a Soul? - Questions & Answers
What is a Soul?


By Yanki Tauber



The soul is the self, the "I" that inhabits the body and acts through it. Without the soul, the body is like a light bulb without electricity, a computer without the software, a space suit with no astronaut inside. With the introduction of the soul, the body acquires life, sight and hearing, thought and speech, intelligence and emotions, will and desire, personality and identity.

Everything Has a Soul

In truth, not just the human being, but also every created entity possesses a "soul." Animals have souls, as do plants and even inanimate objects; every blade of grass has a soul, and every grain of sand. Not only life, but also existence requires a soul to sustain it--a "spark of G-dliness" that perpetually imbues its object with being and significance. A soul is not just the engine of life; it also embodies the why of a thing's existence, it's meaning and purpose. It is a thing's "inner identity, it's raison d'être.

Just like the 'soul' of a musical composition is the composer's vision that energizes and gives life to the notes played in a musical composition--the actual notes are like the body expressing the vision and feeling of the soul within them. Each soul is the expression of G-d's intent and vision in creating that particular being."1

Five Levels

But it is the human soul that is both the most complex and the most lofty of souls. Our sages have said: "She is called by five names: Nefesh (soul), Ruach (spirit), Neshamah (breath), Chayah (life) and Yechidah (singularity)."2 The Chassidic masters explain that the soul's five "names" actually describe five levels or dimensions of the soul.

Nefesh is the soul as the engine of physical life. Ruach is the emotional self and "personality." Neshamah is the intellectual self. Chayah is the supra-rational self--the seat of will, desire, commitment and faith. Yechidah connotes the essence of the soul--its unity with its source, the singular essence of G-d. For the essence of the soul of man is "literally a part of G-d above"3--a piece of G-d in us, so to speak.

Two Souls

The Chassidic masters speak of two distinct souls that vitalize the human being: an "Animal Soul" and a "G-dly Soul." The Animal Soul is driven by the quest for self-preservation and self-enhancement; in this, it resembles the soul and self of all other creations. But we also possess a G-dly Soul"--a soul driven by the desire to reconnect with its Source.

Our lives are the story of the contest and interplay between these two souls, as we struggle to balance and reconcile our physical needs and desires with our spiritual aspirations, our self-focused drives with our altruistic yearnings. These two souls, however, do not reside "side-by-side" within the body; rather, the G-dly Soul is enclothed within the Animal Soul--just as the Animal Soul is enclothed within the body. This means that the Animal Soul, too, is vitalized by the "part of G-d above" at its core. Ostensibly, the two souls are in conflict with each other, but in essence they are compatible.4

Choice

The Divine essence of the human soul is what sets the human being above and apart from all other creations, even the angels. The angel may be more spiritual, but the human being is more G-dly. No creation can possess true freedom of choice--a creation, by definition, has and consists of only what its creator has imparted to it; this is its "nature," and its every inclination and action will be dictated by that nature.

It is only in the human soul that the Creator imparted of His own essence. The human soul is thus the only truly "supra-natural" being (aside from the Creator)--a being that is not limited by its own nature. A being that can transcend itself; a being that can choose to not merely react to its environment, but to act upon it; a being whose choices and actions are therefore of true significance.

Why a Physical Life?

A soul is formed in the womb of supernal spiritual realms, where it acquires its distinct identity and mission. To fulfill this mission, it is dispatched to the physical realm, enclothed within an Animal Soul and equipped with a body. Here the G-dly Soul is challenged by the (apparently) conflicting needs and desires of the Animal Soul; here divine reality is obscured by the dense selfhood of the body and physical world. In this arena of hidden truth and perpetual challenge, the soul can fully express and actualize its divine power.5

Guidance & Nurture

The soul is provided with a compass and guidebook to navigate the challenge of physical life, and the resources to fortify it. The Torah is the divine "blueprint for creation" that guides and instructs the soul on its mission in life. The Torah is also "food for the soul": by studying Torah the soul ingests and digests the divine wisdom and is supplied with the divine energy to persevere in its mission and overcome its challenges.

Mitzvot

A mitzvah is a G-dly deed. Every time a soul performs a mitzvah--giving a coin to charity, putting on tefillin, lighting Shabbat candles--it acts as a "partner with G-d in creation" and brings G-d's presence into the world.

The mitzvot are all physical deeds--so the soul can perform them only while a resident of the physical world, invested within an Animal Soul and a body. Thus the duration of its physical life is the soul's only opportunity to perform mitzvot. Everything that comes before and after is just a prequel and sequel to the soul's greatest and loftiest moments--its acts of connecting the G-dly with the mundane.

Life After Life

Upon conclusion of its physical life-span, the soul resumes a purely spiritual state. It can no longer perform mitzvot, but the G-dly deeds it performed during its physical lifetime have elevated it to heights it could not even had contemplated before its descent.

These mitzvot are like seeds which take root in the soil of the physical world and grow and multiply, further fueling the soul's ascent; as do the good deeds performed in the physical world by others for the merit of the departed soul.

The World to Come

Ultimately, the soul will reunited with the body. In the Messianic Era, the resurrection of the dead will usher in a "World to Come" of eternal physical life, in which "death will be eradicated forever."6

In the World to Come, the entirety of creation will fully and uninhibitedly reflect the infinity and perfection of its Creator, and the physical will transcend the finitude and mortality which define it in today's imperfect world.

 

[arcanum]

Do you know why the Hebrew Union College removed the word 'soul' from the Torah in its translation of 1962?


if thats what you believe, then Judiasm is no longer basing its beliefs and teachings on the Torah....which is very sad.

The word used in the Torah (nephesh) means the living person or animal. It doesnt mean a separate entity within the body of a living person.

Numbers 31:28 As a tax for Jehovah, you should take from the soldiers who went out into the battle one soul out of every 500, of the people, the herd, the donkeys, and the flock.
The 'one soul' in this case is clearly the living person or animal.

Joshua 22:5 Only be very careful to carry out the commandment and the Law that Moses the servant of Jehovah gave you, by loving Jehovah your God, by walking in all his ways, by keeping his commandments, by sticking to him, and by serving him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
Again the 'soul' in this case is the living person who eats and breaths.

1Kings 2:4 And Jehovah will carry out his promise that he made concerning me: ‘If your sons pay attention to their way by walking faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, there will never fail to be a man of your line sitting on the throne of Israel.’
Walking faithfully with all your heart and 'soul' shows that it is a living person being called a 'soul'
Living breath person. Not some mystical invisible spirit inside a living person.


And the most convicing verse in the Torah which proves the soul is the living breathing person is this:

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

The soul dies. It is not eternal.

Why are the JW's so hung up on the physical body and deny's the existence of a more subtle and and spiritual dimension to the human being? You often refer to the Tanakh to make your point, but it does appear there was a gradual evolution of this idea with the Jewish people in the Hebrew scriptures and subsequent writings on this matter. I can't speak for them, but there are many Jews who did/do believe in the soul, especially in the Kabbalistic writings. I think that in some of the early scriptures, the theology wasn't as developed as it later became after the Babylonian captivity. Personally I think the idea that we are basically just animal bodies with the animating force of god's breath and god will reanimate our flesh after death is a little archaic, but that's just me

 

[RabbiO]

It seems that Aryeh Kaplan disagrees with you.....

Actually, no...............

Because I said nothing about whether Rabbi Kaplan believed people have souls. I said nothing about whether I believe people have souls.

The question on the table simply revolved around the translation of a verse from Beresheet. Nothing less, but nothing more. Rabbi Kaplan's translation - which comes from his translation of the Torah, published as The Living Torah - translates
לנפש חיה as "living creature." Similarly, my reference to Rabbi Hertz was not meant as a representation of Rabbi Hertz's position on the existence of the soul - it goes simply to the translation of the verse.

One thing does not necessarily have anything to do with the other.

ORT uses Rabbi Kaplan's translation on their website and you can find the verse in question here - http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=1&CHAPTER=2

 

[CMike]

Good grief.

 

[CMike]

Why are the JW's so hung up on the physical body and deny's the existence of a more subtle and and spiritual dimension to the human being? You often refer to the Tanakh to make your point, but it does appear there was a gradual evolution of this idea with the Jewish people in the Hebrew scriptures and subsequent writings on this matter. I can't speak for them, but there are many Jews who did/do believe in the soul, especially in the Kabbalistic writings. I think that in some of the early scriptures, the theology wasn't as developed as it later became after the Babylonian captivity. Personally I think the idea that we are basically just animal bodies with the animating force of god's breath and god will reanimate our flesh after death is a little archaic, but that's just me

The soul is a very important component of Judaism.

 

[arcanum]

Actually, no...............

Because I said nothing about whether Rabbi Kaplan believed people have souls. I said nothing about whether I believe people have souls.

The question on the table simply revolved around the translation of a verse from Beresheet. Nothing less, but nothing more. Rabbi Kaplan's translation - which comes from his translation of the Torah, published as The Living Torah - translates
לנפש חיה as "living creature." Similarly, my reference to Rabbi Hertz was not meant as a representation of Rabbi Hertz's position on the existence of the soul - it goes simply to the translation of the verse.

One thing does not necessarily have anything to do with the other.

ORT uses Rabbi Kaplan's translation on their website and you can find the verse in question here - http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=1&CHAPTER=2

What is your personal opinion on the matter RabbiO?

 

[Pegg]

[Why are the JW's so hung up on the physical body and deny's the existence of a more subtle and and spiritual dimension to the human being?

because the idea that there is some other dimension to a humans life is false.

Its a lie.

You often refer to the Tanakh to make your point, but it does appear there was a gradual evolution of this idea with the Jewish people in the Hebrew scriptures and subsequent writings on this matter.

Yes i know. This happened because they stopped teaching and believing in the Torah and began adopting false religious ideas.

I can't speak for them, but there are many Jews who did/do believe in the soul, especially in the Kabbalistic writings. I think that in some of the early scriptures, the theology wasn't as developed as it later became after the Babylonian captivity.

exactly right, after the babylonian captivity we see a much more broader acceptance of the false religious teachings that were found in Bablyon's religions. But Gods prophets did not accept, nor did they teach, such things.

Thats why you wont find the Torah to contain such teachings. You will find such teachings in 'extra-biblical' writings though.

But lets not be deceived into thinking that those extra-biblical writings have anything to do with Gods word. They are the teachings of people, not God.

 

[Thief]

because the idea that there is some other dimension to a humans life is false.

Its a lie.

But lets not be deceived into thinking that those extra-biblical writings have anything to do with Gods word. They are the teachings of people, not God.

Death will take the dimension from you.

And if you keep His sayings, others will keep yours as well.
He said so.

 

[Pegg]

Death will take the dimension from you.

And if you keep His sayings, others will keep yours as well.
He said so.

the bible says that at death man will 'return to dust'

this implies that mans only dimension is 'dust'

And thats why the bible also says that at death we are 'conscious of nothing at all'

But babylonish religions would have us believe the lie told by the serpant in the garden of Eden.... 'you will become like God'

 

[arcanum]

the bible says that at death man will 'return to dust'

this implies that mans only dimension is 'dust'

And thats why the bible also says that at death we are 'conscious of nothing at all'

But babylonish religions would have us believe the lie told by the serpant in the garden of Eden.... 'you will become like God'

Ok so does that mean that in the jw's belief system, man is really no different than other mammals, there is virtually nothing that differentiates man from animals, and therefore at death we go to dust just like animals? And since we just go to dust and nothing of the person survives, I guess that would have to mean there is no possibility of afterlife then? But I don't that's entirely the case is it? Isn't there a lucky 144,000 who are exempt from going the way of all flesh in your belief system?

 

[Desert Snake]

But babylonish religions would have us believe the lie told by the serpant in the garden of Eden.... 'you will become like God'

Pretty sure these are unrelated topics, Pegg.

Ehh, besides, that's the Bible you're referencing....the snake told that to Eve..

also, never heard that teaching, are you saying Christian denominations teach that?
Not to my knowledge..

 

[Pegg]

Ok so does that mean that in the jw's belief system, man is really no different than other mammals, there is virtually nothing that differentiates man from animals, and therefore at death we go to dust just like animals?

we are all creatures of 'flesh and blood', so in that sense, we are no different to them.

We didnt exist before we were born because there is no eternal part of man.

And since we just go to dust and nothing of the person survives, I guess that would have to mean there is no possibility of afterlife then?

that's right. death is the opposite to life. We don't live on in another form according to the scriptures we become 'dust' and 'unconscious' therefore we become as we were before we were born....non-existent.

But I don't that's entirely the case is it? Isn't there a lucky 144,000 who are exempt from going the way of all flesh in your belief system?

God did not create mankind to die. That's the difference between us and the animals. We were created to live forever. We only die because of sin.

Through Christ, God purposes to remove sin from mankind and allow them the opportunity to live forever. The few who are chosen to be in heaven with Christ will form part of a government who will rule over mankind and help us to become free of sin.

 

[Pegg]

Pretty sure these are unrelated topics, Pegg.

Ehh, besides, that's the Bible you're referencing....the snake told that to Eve..

also, never heard that teaching, are you saying Christian denominations teach that?
Not to my knowledge..

it is related.

What is God like? He is a spirit, yes?

And isn't the babylonish teaching that man will live on as a spirit after they die?

Doesnt that sound like the lie told to Eve.... Gen 3:4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.

 

[Thief]

the bible says that at death man will 'return to dust'

this implies that mans only dimension is 'dust'

And thats why the bible also says that at death we are 'conscious of nothing at all'

But babylonish religions would have us believe the lie told by the serpant in the garden of Eden.... 'you will become like God'

I believe the flesh is a means of generating unique spirit on each occasion.
The flesh is then shed and shall be dust.
The spirit will continue....

God is Spirit.
The Sons of God are spirit.

 

[Pegg]

I believe the flesh is a means of generating unique spirit on each occasion.
The flesh is then shed and shall be dust.
The spirit will continue....

God is Spirit.
The Sons of God are spirit.

flesh and spirit have nothing in common.

One is physical the other is not. According to the scriptures, the spirit of man is his 'breath' ...the invisible force of life within his flesh. Job 27:3 As long as my breath is within me
And spirit from God is in my nostrils


When that spirit leaves the body, when we breath our 'last breath' “His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; on that very day his thoughts perish.”
Psalm 146:4

According to this scripture, the 'spirit' is not linked to your personality, thought processes or memories or your individuality....its your life force. And that life force can be put out.

 

[Pegg]

Nope, we all have souls, that's not what makes G-d different from us.. we're ....humans. That's the difference. Like Adam..'Created from clay".

yes, so we are not immortal.

Our life is dependent on God to continue. Adam didnt come to life until God breathed 'spirit' into his lungs. Only 'then' did the man become a living being.

 

[Desert Snake]

yes, so we are not immortal.

Our life is dependent on God to continue. Adam didnt come to life until God breathed 'spirit' into his lungs. Only 'then' did the man become a living being.

But you need to read the NT, then. We might be using different Bibles?
I think so. Then how can we come to a conclusion if you aren't using the entire Bible..

Even if you're correct, what's the difference lol if you think the righteous will inherit the earth..what is this semantics or something, but that aside, we either just disagree, but saying it isn't Biblical teaching just isn't accurate. I can use portions of the Bible to come up with any meaning I want, that's why we use the entire Bible.

 

[Pegg]

But you need to read the NT, then. We might be using different Bibles?
I think so. Then how can we come to a conclusion if you aren't using the entire Bible..

jOhn 11:11 After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death


Why do you think Jesus likened death to 'sleep'?

Why wasnt Lazarus in some afterlife either in heaven or in hell?

The man was dead, and when he was brought back to life, he knew nothing of what had become of him. Why? because he was unconscious just as the bible says;
Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.

Wake up and smell the coffee.