"There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood."

[Sleeppy]

Jesus was nothing like Rabbi Akiva.

1) Jesus was not a "son of David". In Judaism tribal lineage goes solely by the father. We don't know whom Jesus' biological father was. When this is unknown he is considered part of the general population. He had no tribal lineage.

2) Jesus spent most of his time proclaiming his own greatness. Rabbi Akiva was humble. Humbleness was taught from Moses. Jesus was anything but humble.

3) Rabbi Akiva never said he was sacrificing himself. In fact, sacrificing yourself, is within itself a sin. He also never claimed to have any divine power or the power to forgive everyone's sins. Only G-D has the power to do that.

4) Rabbi Akiva when being tortured proclaimed G-D's greatness. Jesus' words -"why have you forsaken me".

5) Maybe jesus was a "rabbi" to Christians, he wasn't to jews. His teachings directly contradict what G-D commanded the jews.

Jesus wasn't even close in the same league with Rabbi Akiva.

Rabbi Akiva knew he would be tortured and die saying, "I've waited all my life" [for this moment, to show God the full extent of my devotion].. -- He knew the Roman's power of the law could, and most likely would, have him executed before God, so Rabbi Akiva did indeed sacrifice himself. If Rabbi Akiva was capable of maintaining students without making that spectacle in the square, then Rabbi Akiva sacrificed himself knowing the impact of his own death, and his last words. Rabbi Akiva must've known, that as he glorified his own torture, telling his students that it was his most anticipated devotion to God, that they would become inspired. They did. It's not a stretch to think some of them even began to rebel against the Roman's power of law, and died in like manner. We do know that they preserved Rabbi Akiva's example for you to read, CMike.

Jesus proclaimed God's greatness, not his own. He called himself the son of Man over and over again; this should indicate to the reader that mere men, and children specifically, are capable of the things Jesus proclaims of himself as a Rabbi/example, and of his disciples. Jesus is quoted in the gospels proclaiming God's love for ordinary people. He would say, "your faith in God has made you well." If Jesus was lying, then the Scriptures are lying.

 

[Pegg]

This is according to Hebrews 9:22 which Conservative Christians point to as a reason Jesus had to die on the cross.

But there was plenty of forgiveness going on in the OT without the shedding of blood. People obtained forgiveness with a food offering. During the Exodus, God forgave the Israelites numerous times without asking for a sacrifice.

In the OT, animal sacrifice was primarily for unintentional sins and special situations such as defiling the temple. If animal sacrifice was primarily for unintentional sins, I don't how God would go from there to Jesus had to shed his blood for the sins of the world.

its simple.

Mankind were not created to die. We were supposed to live forever.

Death is the result of sin. And even the most righteous person still suffers the penalty of death....even Gods most favoured servants still suffer the penalty of death because to be completely forgiven of sins, we must pay the penalty through death.

If you are satisfied with that outcome, then sure, you dont need a saviour. But if you would like a way to be completely forgiven and thereby be saved from the penalty of death, then you need someone to pay the penalty on your behalf.

Thats what Jesus did for us all.

 

[idav]

its simple.

Mankind were not created to die. We were supposed to live forever.

Death is the result of sin. And even the most righteous person still suffers the penalty of death...even Gods most favoured servants still suffer the penalty of death because to be completely forgiven of sins, we must pay the penalty through death.

If you are satisfied with that outcome, then sure, you dont need a saviour. But if you would like a way to be completely forgiven and thereby be saved from the penalty of death, then you need someone to pay the penalty on your behalf.

Thats what Jesus did for us all.

The highlighted is counter to what evolution has to tell us.

 

[Sabour]

its simple.

Mankind were not created to die. We were supposed to live forever.

Death is the result of sin. And even the most righteous person still suffers the penalty of death....even Gods most favoured servants still suffer the penalty of death because to be completely forgiven of sins, we must pay the penalty through death.

If you are satisfied with that outcome, then sure, you dont need a saviour. But if you would like a way to be completely forgiven and thereby be saved from the penalty of death, then you need someone to pay the penalty on your behalf.

Thats what Jesus did for us all.

Jesus peace be upon him taught the way to eternal life is through obeying the commandments, and not through what you said.

 

[Pegg]

Jesus peace be upon him taught the way to eternal life is through obeying the commandments, and not through what you said.

people have tried for thousands of years to live by the commandments and have failed.

Not one of all the millions who've tried has been saved by obedience to the mosaic law.

why do you suppose that is?

 

[Tumah]

people have tried for thousands of years to live by the commandments and have failed.

Not one of all the millions who've tried has been saved by obedience to the mosaic law.

why do you suppose that is?

Care to back up that statement, with a little something we like to call...proof?

 

[Sabour]

people have tried for thousands of years to live by the commandments and have failed.

Not one of all the millions who've tried has been saved by obedience to the mosaic law.

why do you suppose that is?

Are you saying that Jesus peace be upon him was wrong about his teaching and we know better?

 

[Pegg]

Care to back up that statement, with a little something we like to call...proof?

can you tell me the age of the oldest person alive?

 

[Pegg]

Are you saying that Jesus peace be upon him was wrong about his teaching and we know better?

Jesus said that death will be removed from mankind during the time of the 'judgement day'

we have not entered that time yet. When we do enter that time the full benefits of Jesus sacrifice will be applied to mankind and God will remove the divine penalty from us.

That is when our sins can be 'completely' atoned for so that we do not have to pay the price for sin, namely death. The key point here is that the divine penalty cannot be removed by us...it can only be removed by Jesus which is why he is called the 'resurrection and the life'

 

[Tumah]

can you tell me the age of the oldest person alive?

Probably about 103ish.

Now would you care to prove that no one has been able to live by the Mosaic Law?

Also, while you're at it, can you point me to the verse that promises eternal life in this world to one who completely fulfills the Mosaic Law.

 

[Pegg]

Probably about 103ish.

so there is no one living beyond this? What about all the people who strive to live by the mosaic law? Why aren't they living forever???

Now would you care to prove that no one has been able to live by the Mosaic Law?

live eternally.... does the mosaic law save a person from death? No. No amount of trying is going to give you everlasting life.

Also, while you're at it, can you point me to the verse that promises eternal life in this world to one who completely fulfills the Mosaic Law.

I can point you to the verses which say that the righteous will be living forever on earth....

Ps 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth,
And they will live forever on it

Proverbs 2:21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it.

Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.


Matthew 19:16 Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?” 17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” 18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not bear false witness, 19 honor your father and your mother, and you must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all of these; what am I still lacking?”


To enter into life, a person must be 'perfect' and observe the 'commandments continually'
the young jew who asked Jesus this question said that he had observed all the commandments yet that young man is not with us today. Why did he die if he was observing all the commandments?

Even the law says that a person can live forever if they are 'righteous' and observe the law. So why dont these ones remain alive?

 

[Tumah]

so there is no one living beyond this? What about all the people who strive to live by the mosaic law? Why aren't they living forever???

live eternally.... does the mosaic law save a person from death? No. No amount of trying is going to give you everlasting life.

I can point you to the verses which say that the righteous will be living forever on earth....

Ps 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth,
And they will live forever on it

Proverbs 2:21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it.

-snipped out Matthew for being irrelevant to me.-

Even the law says that a person can live forever if they are 'righteous' and observe the law. So why dont these ones remain alive?

Allow me to direct your attention to the tense of both verses you've quoted here:
Psa. 37:29 [The] righteous will inherit [the] land...
-- they will inherit it in the future, not today
Prov. 2:21 For [the] straight will dwell [in the] land...
-- they will dwell there in the future, not today

Just in case you were wondering, Hebrew does in fact have tenses that could indicate someone righteous inheriting the land today.

These verses speak about after the Resurrection of the Dead. Then, those that were righteous, straight, etc. in life, will inherit the land etc.

 

[Pegg]

Allow me to direct your attention to the tense of both verses you've quoted here:
Psa. 37:29 [The] righteous will inherit [the] land...
-- they will inherit it in the future, not today
Prov. 2:21 For [the] straight will dwell [in the] land...
-- they will dwell there in the future, not today

Just in case you were wondering, Hebrew does in fact have tenses that could indicate someone righteous inheriting the land today.

These verses speak about after the Resurrection of the Dead. Then, those that were righteous, straight, etc. in life, will inherit the land etc.

yes, im aware of that.

Which is why i said that death will end in the judgement day.

 

[Tumah]

yes, im aware of that.

Which is why i said that death will end in the judgement day.

And therefore you of course have failed to prove that of the millions of people that have/do abide/d by the Mosaic Law, none have managed to do so successfully.

 

[Sabour]

Jesus said that death will be removed from mankind during the time of the 'judgement day'

Where did he say that? Is it explicit? or implicit taken out of context?

we have not entered that time yet. When we do enter that time the full benefits of Jesus sacrifice will be applied to mankind and God will remove the divine penalty from us.

That is when our sins can be 'completely' atoned for so that we do not have to pay the price for sin, namely death. The key point here is that the divine penalty cannot be removed by us...it can only be removed by Jesus which is why he is called the 'resurrection and the life'

Does the bible say that? Where ?

 

[BruceDLimber]

[Jesus] did not die, really.

Baha'is disagree: we stipulate that He did indeed die (and our scriptures have an explanation for the Qur'anic statement that apparently says otherwise), as other God-sent Divine Messengers have also been put to death (we know of one other for sure).

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Desert Snake]

Baha'is disagree: we stipulate that He did indeed die (and our scriptures have an explanation for the Qur'anic statement that apparently says otherwise), as other God-sent Divine Messengers have also been put to death (we know of one other for sure).

Peace,

Bruce

Do you mean on the cross? Everything I've read indicates otherwise.

 

[Pegg]

And therefore you of course have failed to prove that of the millions of people that have/do abide/d by the Mosaic Law, none have managed to do so successfully.

do they die?

 

[Pegg]

Where did he say that? Is it explicit? or implicit taken out of context?

The jewish belief in the first century was that the 'judgement day' would be when all mankind are brought back to life. We can see this from Mary's reply to Jesus when Jesus told her that her dead brother (Lazarus) would live again.

John 11:23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

This was the teaching of Jesus....all who had died will be brought back to life:
John 5:28, 29 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

And this teaching was in harmony with the Hebrew scriptures too:

Isaiah 26:19 “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life

Hosea 13:14 From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

Does the bible say that? Where ?

Yes the bible does say this.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life


While Jesus was dying on the torture stake, the man next to him asked to be remembered. Jesus reply shows that even that man will be brought back to life and given another chance for Jesus told him: "you will be with me in paradise"

How could Jesus know that the criminal beside him would be in paradise? He knew because when we die, we are paying the price of sin. Death was the punishment as mentioned in the book of James:
James 1:15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death

When we die, we are paying the price for the sins we committed in our life. The only reason why we have the opportunity to live forever after our resurrection is because our sins are wiped out. We are no longer held accountable for the sins of the past because the debt has been repaid. Thats why those who are resurrected have the prospect of eternal life as revelation shows;
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire

 

[viole]

yes, im aware of that.

Which is why i said that death will end in the judgement day.

I agree

Ciao

- viole