There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

[Thrillobyte]

This is something I have thought about in the past. If god is truly superior to us in ability and knowledge, then it's not something we can experiment on. The explanation is the same as why we experiment on mice, but mice don't experiment on us. We have the power to limit the actions of mice, and the mice have no such power over us.

It's all very well to set up an experiment to test a superior being, but we have to remember that the being has no obligation to cooperate, and we have no way to enforce that cooperation. It would be perfectly reasonable to suggest that god deliberately ignored all the prayers in that study.

Something else I worked out, and actually tried. How do you find out about a god-like being, starting with its existence of course? My conclusion was that the only way that made sense was to ask, politely, knowing that the only way I would get an answer was if god decided to respond. If I got a response, whoopie! If not, either god didn't exist or didn't want to talk to me. Either way I'd learned something.

This is what it boils down to, Alien.

We know God does not move on any discernible level here on earth. Yet here we are, all 8 billion of us. Against all odds starting out, we somehow managed to beat hunger, disease, wild beasts, natural disasters and all the rest. We should have lost the race going out the gate. The first two of us who managed to evolve to procreate should have been eaten by hyenas or something. Yet here we are. Alone on a planet with a God somewhere out there who either doesn't exist or doesn't want to interact with a single one of us, best as we can observe.

Go figure.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Because the Bible says "I have a plan for you." And God never lies, does he?

A plan or a purpose __________
Jeremiah 29:11 I find tells us that God declares His thoughts of peace and not of calamity in order to give you a future and a hope.
Hope (Romans 15:13,4) such as Jesus' promise that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matt.5:5; Psalm 37:9-11
Hope which includes coming world-wide Peace on Earth by means of God's kingdom ( thy kingdom come...) under Christ as King. - Dan. 2:44-45
It is MAN who has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9
MAN's hurful domination over MAN will be gone because Jesus will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev.19:14-15
Then there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations - Rev. 22:2 ( That's why we are invited to pray to God for Jesus to come - Rev. 22:20 )
Healing as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah. ( No more injustice and poverty as we now see on Earth )
As the old adage goes it is 'darkest before the dawn' is what we are seeing today.
The coming great tribulation is the 'dark before the coming dawn' of Jesus' Millennium-long Day of governing over Earth in righteousness.
When the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security....." that Rosy saying can lead people down that old Primrose Path because that saying will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation before Armageddon (the war to end all wars on Earth - Psalm 46:9)

 

[nPeace]

Of course you don't know any Christians who trust outside sources. That's because the outside sources say Jesus never existed. Of course Christians trust the internal sources like the gospels. That's because they say Jesus was real. If you were an atheist would you trust the internal sources? If you were a Christian would you trust the external sources? People go with what validates their personal emotions and beliefs, that's just human natural. Nothing supernatural about it.

Did I say, I don't know any Christian who trusts outside sources? I must have dozed off while typing. Should I look again at what I actually wrote.

The strongest evidence is internal. All the evidence needed is shown where one does not keep fighting to resist it.
If it is, one repeatedly has to admit that what they denied, is actually true, but keeps having a go, at trying to deny something else, I think when they ask for external evidence, it's the crutch they turn to, to win their case.
It's like saying, we can't win if we attack this area, so let's try this one. Let's ask for evidence that Jesus actually walked on water.

Regardless of what evidence they are given, it won't satisfy them, because they really aren't looking for any.

Why doesn't God answer prayers?

God answers prayers. Isn't that a loaded question?

Answer: because he either doesn't exist or if he does he doesn't give a damn about us.

Why you feel that way is understandable, becase you no doubt wish the world was a better place to live.
Millions, in fact, billions feel like you do.
Millions have learned what you appear not to have learned. That is, why the world isn't as we would like it to be.
They don't conclude that it must be because God does not care, or God does not exist.

Isn't that, doing two things we wouldn't even want our children to ever do... 1) jump to conclusion, and 2) decide that there is only one or two answers to a given situation?

Do you think scientists should take that approach also?

 

[Alien826]

I don't know, maybe it gets mad at us.

In that case, you should have asked "What happens if the messages stop?" rather than "What happens when the messages stop?"

My answer was pretty much to the first version, anyway. If god had instituted a new way of communicating with us, he probably intended to continue with it. He'd have already sifted through the possible futures and picked a method that was going to work, right? Being all knowing, that is.

 

[Alien826]

Another interesting tidbit of rationalization for the "why it didn't work" question of faith healing from the linked article. A person asked if it was fair, for God to heal only those whom were randomly selected to receive the prayers. They posit that God would not operate that way.

I though that was a so-so reason. Something I hadn't thought of.

That's a good one.

 

[Thrillobyte]

It is if it was only witnessed by a few, and the story spread slowly and didn't really take off until the time you have identified, when politicians / rulers used it to amass power.



It would have been too much if the desired outcome is belief not knowledge.

I've written a small bit about this here. And I'm not going to subject you to the rationale, unless you want to hear it. But, there's a benefit to this method, skipping over knowledge in favor of belief. Knowledge is a cage. But belief permits a wide diverse audience to have a 100% true relationship with an infinite formless being.

Here's the reality, dyb:

A man who could raise people from the dead like Jesus did to Jarius' daughter and Lazarus would have been immediately drafted by the Romans to raise their troops killed in battle. A man who had been condemned by the Romans to be executed and who had come back alive would have been immediately rearrested by the Romans and crucified all over again. A man the gospels claims was so famous he could turn out 9,000 people to hear him on a mountainside and then feed them all with a couple of loaves and two fish would have caused all 100,000 people of the city of Jerusalem and the entire garrisoned army of Romans to turn out to watch him be crucified and witness the supernatural darkness for 3 hours, the gigantic earthquake that in reality would have leveled Jerusalem to the ground, and see the zombie bodies of their forefathers coming out of their graves.

And yet not a single person wrote a single thing about all these incredible events, when historians write volumes on events not half as incredible as the death of Jesus????????

It takes infinitely more faith to believe the bold above than it does to believe Jesus rose from the dead!

 

[osgart]

You sound so assertive, as though you are actually stating facts.
We both know you aren't though, don't we.

Are you claiming that the Bible is obvious fact, and truth to all people?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's too vague. Where does the Bible say "I have a plan for you"?........................................

Try Jeremiah 29:11

God's plan/purpose for you is No one will die - Isaiah 25:8
* Everyone can see dead loved ones again - John 5:28-29; John 6:40,44; Acts 24:15
God's plan/purpose for you is No one will get sick - Isaiah 33:24; 35:5-6
* Everyone will enjoy good heath and energy - Job 33:25; Rev. 22:2
God's plan/purpose for you is No one will experience injustice - Isaiah 32:16-17
* Everyone will have plenty of good food and houses - Isaiah 65:21-22; Psalm 72:8, 12-14
God's plan/purpose for you is No suffering because of War - Psalm 46:9
* Everyone will experience Peace on Earth - Psalm 37; Matthew 5:5
God's plan/purpose for you is No more bad memories - Isaiah 65:17
* Everyone will live forever under ideal conditions - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We know God does not move on any discernible level here on earth. Yet here we are, all 8 billion of us. Against all odds starting out, we somehow managed to beat hunger, disease, wild beasts, natural disasters and all the rest.

'Against the odds' until these now last days of badness on Earth as described at 2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13.
The 'discernible level' I find is what Jesus instructed to do at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
On a vast international scale today the good news about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is being proclaimed world-wide as never before in history.
Even modern technology has made possible rapid Bible translation so that people living in remote areas can have access to Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.
Against all odds the Bible has somehow manged to beat all enemies against it. Enemies from without and within. Nothing can stop the preaching work.
Nothing can stop the fulfillment of Matthew 25:31-34

 

[Thrillobyte]

A plan or a purpose __________
Jeremiah 29:11 I find tells us that God declares His thoughts of peace and not of calamity in order to give you a future and a hope.
Hope (Romans 15:13,4) such as Jesus' promise that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matt.5:5; Psalm 37:9-11
Hope which includes coming world-wide Peace on Earth by means of God's kingdom ( thy kingdom come...) under Christ as King. - Dan. 2:44-45
It is MAN who has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9
MAN's hurful domination over MAN will be gone because Jesus will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev.19:14-15
Then there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations - Rev. 22:2 ( That's why we are invited to pray to God for Jesus to come - Rev. 22:20 )
Healing as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah. ( No more injustice and poverty as we now see on Earth )
As the old adage goes it is 'darkest before the dawn' is what we are seeing today.
The coming great tribulation is the 'dark before the coming dawn' of Jesus' Millennium-long Day of governing over Earth in righteousness.
When the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security....." that Rosy saying can lead people down that old Primrose Path because that saying will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation before Armageddon (the war to end all wars on Earth - Psalm 46:9)

This is a ton of Christian dogma mixed with still more speculation about how things are going to play out, URAV. I don't deal in speculation, I don't deal in Christian futurology, I don't deal in pulling out diverse unrelated verses from all over the Bible to try to justify why a promise in the Bible doesn't pan out. Sorry.

 

[Thrillobyte]

Try Jeremiah 29:11

God's plan/purpose for you is No one will die - Isaiah 25:8
* Everyone can see dead loved ones again - John 5:28-29; John 6:40,44; Acts 24:15
God's plan/purpose for you is No one will get sick - Isaiah 33:24; 35:5-6
* Everyone will enjoy good heath and energy - Job 33:25; Rev. 22:2
God's plan/purpose for you is No one will experience injustice - Isaiah 32:16-17
* Everyone will have plenty of good food and houses - Isaiah 65:21-22; Psalm 72:8, 12-14
God's plan/purpose for you is No suffering because of War - Psalm 46:9
* Everyone will experience Peace on Earth - Psalm 37; Matthew 5:5
God's plan/purpose for you is No more bad memories - Isaiah 65:17
* Everyone will live forever under ideal conditions - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26

A lot--I mean A LOT of broken promises in there, not surprisingly.

 

[Thrillobyte]

Did I say, I don't know any Christian who trusts outside sources? I must have dozed off while typing. Should I look again at what I actually wrote.

The strongest evidence is internal. All the evidence needed is shown where one does not keep fighting to resist it.
If it is, one repeatedly has to admit that what they denied, is actually true, but keeps having a go, at trying to deny something else, I think when they ask for external evidence, it's the crutch they turn to, to win their case.
It's like saying, we can't win if we attack this area, so let's try this one. Let's ask for evidence that Jesus actually walked on water.

Regardless of what evidence they are given, it won't satisfy them, because they really aren't looking for any.


God answers prayers. Isn't that a loaded question?


Why you feel that way is understandable, becase you no doubt wish the world was a better place to live.
Millions, in fact, billions feel like you do.
Millions have learned what you appear not to have learned. That is, why the world isn't as we would like it to be.
They don't conclude that it must be because God does not care, or God does not exist.

Isn't that, doing two things we wouldn't even want our children to ever do... 1) jump to conclusion, and 2) decide that there is only one or two answers to a given situation?

Do you think scientists should take that approach also?

I apparently don't know your definitions of internal and external. What you are saying there isn't making a bit of sense to me, sorry.

God answers prayers.

God DOESN'T answer prayers. How many studies do we have to show you to prove that point?

The rest of it is pretty esoteric stuff, peace. I can't address it without getting far afield of the topic and derailing the thread, topic of which is "Jesus is not evidenced in the secular historic record."

 

[F1fan]

Even if an Almighty God could make those things happen that does not mean He would make those things happen.
An Almighty God could also destroy the whole earth in a heartbeat, but He does not do that.

We are discussing the reasons why things are as they are, and how that fits with a creator God as certain believers claim it exists.

Why should we believe everything that is in the Bible?

There are some factual references in the Bible. And if there is evidence for any part of it then it earns some degree of belief. Religious books and texts that refer to supernatural beings are easy to dismiss since there is no evidence for any such beings existing outside of human imagination. So even if there are some true elements in various stories or texts they can be dismissed due to the baselessness of supernaturalism.

There is no reason to believe everything since the Bible is not inerrant.

Nor is Baha'u'llah, but that doesn't stop you.

Also, much of what is in the Bible is not literally true but rather figurative truth, a demonstration of spiritual verities. For example, faith cannot literally move mountains. That s just a way of saying that with strong faith we can do what would otherwise be impossible. I can testify to that.

It's easy to be a critic outside of your faith.

 

[nPeace]

Are you claiming that the Bible is obvious fact, and truth to all people?

I'm saying there is evidence the literal events of the Bible did happen. .. contrary to your claim.

Hadn't heard about this before, but I found it interesting. It says a lot.

Spoiler

In 2003, The Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) argued that the inscriptions were forged at a much later date. In December 2004, Oded Golan was charged with 44 counts of forgery, fraud, and deception, including forgery of the Ossuary inscription. However, in an external expert report, dated September 2005, Wolfgang E. Krumbein's conclusions contradict those of the IAA stating "Our preliminary investigations cannot prove the authenticity of the three objects beyond any doubt. Doubtlessly the patina is continuous in many places throughout surface and lettering grooves in the case of ossuary and tablet. On the other hand a proof of forgery is not given by the experts nominated by the IAA.". The trial lasted seven years before Judge Aharon Farkash came to a verdict. On March 14, 2012, Golan was acquitted of the forgery charges but convicted of illegal trading in antiquities. The judge said this acquittal "does not mean that the inscription on the ossuary is authentic or that it was written 2,000 years ago". The ossuary was returned to Golan, who put it on public display. The Israeli Antiquities Authority has failed to offer any report explaining why it concluded the ossuary is a forgery. The lack of transparency with the IAA's findings have precluded international experts from giving their opinions on the authenticity of the ossuary.

The Bible is a collection of ancient documents.
What are the facts?

Are they historical?
Yes. No arguments have seriously challenged that fact.
True, there are debates on the question of how reliable is the Bible as an historical record? However, there is no good reason why one should accept those opinions, or one over the other. They don't know.

Are they accurate, reliable?
Yes. What has been discovered has not disagreed with what the Bible states.

People's debating something, does not make one side, or the other, right.
Often, evidence turn up later, and refutes beliefs and claim, as has happened numerous times with the evidence supporting the Bible.
Not sure if all these are accurate, but some are.
Bible critics have been proven wrong a thousand times, and in most cases this hasn’t humbled them or changed their opinion toward Scripture.

Isn't that how science works?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

There are some factual references in the Bible. And if there is evidence for any part of it then it earns some degree of belief. Religious books and texts that refer to supernatural beings are easy to dismiss since there is no evidence for any such beings existing outside of human imagination. So even if there are some true elements in various stories or texts they can be dismissed due to the baselessness of supernaturalism.

There are factual references in Greek mythology too, as well as references to supernatural beings. However, I highly doubt that any Christian or another Abrahamic theist will insist that Zeus, Hera, Ares, Athena, or any of the other deities mentioned in Greek mythology are real gods and goddesses. In fact, I'm quite confident that they won't and will dismiss these deities as figments of people's imagination. They will nevertheless insist that their God exists and will point out factual references in the Bible. Not only do they insist that their God is real, but many of them will insist that their God inspired the Bible.

 

[nPeace]

I apparently don't know your definitions of internal and external. What you are saying there isn't making a bit of sense to me, sorry.

Oh. Internal evidence would be things like historical, scientific, prophetic accuracy and reliability, etc.

God DOESN'T answer prayers. How many studies do we have to show you to prove that point?

How does one study prayer?
Do they choose people who claim that they can pray for miracles, and they will happen?
That doesn't sound crazy to you?

The rest of it is pretty esoteric stuff, peace. I can't address it without getting far afield of the topic and derailing the thread, topic of which is "Jesus is not evidenced in the secular historic record."

For one thing, scholars have different opinions.
For another, scholars are not gods... and a whole lot of other things.

 

[F1fan]

This is something I have thought about in the past. If god is truly superior to us in ability and knowledge, then it's not something we can experiment on. The explanation is the same as why we experiment on mice, but mice don't experiment on us. We have the power to limit the actions of mice, and the mice have no such power over us.

It's all very well to set up an experiment to test a superior being, but we have to remember that the being has no obligation to cooperate, and we have no way to enforce that cooperation. It would be perfectly reasonable to suggest that god deliberately ignored all the prayers in that study.

Something else I worked out, and actually tried. How do you find out about a god-like being, starting with its existence of course? My conclusion was that the only way that made sense was to ask, politely, knowing that the only way I would get an answer was if god decided to respond. If I got a response, whoopie! If not, either god didn't exist or didn't want to talk to me. Either way I'd learned something.

But the studies aren't testing a God, the test is the effectiveness of people praying. The question is: does prayer have any effect? Would a study put a God off? Heck we always perk up our ears when someone says they won the big game because of God. Guess what, people were watching. What about the losers? Weren't any of those players praying? How about the family and frineds of someone who has a kid in the hospital and they all pray hoping for a certain outcome? That is essentially a test, too: will God come through for little Johnny? Sometimes God comes through, sometimes God doesn't. That failure rate has to put doubts in the minds of some, eh?

 

[dybmh]

In that case, you should have asked "What happens if the messages stop?" rather than "What happens when the messages stop?"

My answer was pretty much to the first version, anyway. If god had instituted a new way of communicating with us, he probably intended to continue with it. He'd have already sifted through the possible futures and picked a method that was going to work, right? Being all knowing, that is.

Yup, sorry. I should have said If. And I think you're right, what you're describing could work.

 

[dybmh]

Here's the reality, dyb:

A man who could raise people from the dead like Jesus did to Jarius' daughter and Lazarus would have been immediately drafted by the Romans to raise their troops killed in battle. A man who had been condemned by the Romans to be executed and who had come back alive would have been immediately rearrested by the Romans and crucified all over again. A man the gospels claims was so famous he could turn out 9,000 people to hear him on a mountainside and then feed them all with a couple of loaves and two fish would have caused all 100,000 people of the city of Jerusalem and the entire garrisoned army of Romans to turn out to watch him be crucified and witness the supernatural darkness for 3 hours, the gigantic earthquake that in reality would have leveled Jerusalem to the ground, and see the zombie bodies of their forefathers coming out of their graves.

I feel like these have been addressed. It's all the same answer.

• A man who could raise people from the dead like Jesus did to Jarius' daughter and Lazarus would have been immediately drafted by the Romans to raise their troops killed in battle.
  • It wasn't publicised the way you're imagining, Jesus traveled around, and he hid from the authorities
• A man who had been condemned by the Romans to be executed and who had come back alive would have been immediately rearrested by the Romans and crucified all over again.
  • He rose from the dead, then dissappeared. Correct me if I'm wrong?
• A man the gospels claims was so famous he could turn out 9,000 people to hear him on a mountainside and then feed them all with a couple of loaves and two fish would have caused all 100,000 people of the city of Jerusalem and the entire garrisoned army of Romans to turn out to watch him be crucified
  • Those numbers were probably greatly exaggerated, and there was no fear of divine retribution because it wasn't a lie about Jesus
• witness the supernatural darkness for 3 hours
  • embelished by the authors without fear of divine retribution because it's not a lie about Jesus
• the gigantic earthquake that in reality would have leveled Jerusalem to the ground
  • embelished by the authors without fear of divine retribution because it's not a lie about Jesus
• the zombie bodies of their forefathers coming out of their graves.
  • embelished by the authors without fear of divine retribution because it's not a lie about Jesus

And yet not a single person wrote a single thing about all these incredible events, when historians write volumes on events not half as incredible as the death of Jesus????????

Well, there were other miracle workers around at that time. Did they write about any of those other people? Even a tiny bit? It just doesn't seem like this is their genre. And like I said, all the absence shows is that the Jesus story was not as grand in scale.

It takes infinitely more faith to believe the bold above than it does to believe Jesus rose from the dead!

Well sure, don't believe it. But that doesn't mean it's false.

 

[Thrillobyte]

Oh. Internal evidence would be things like historical, scientific, prophetic accuracy and reliability, etc.


How does one study prayer?
Do they choose people who claim that they can pray for miracles, and they will happen?
That doesn't sound crazy to you?


For one thing, scholars have different opinions.
For another, scholars are not gods... and a whole lot of other things.

I thought internal evidence was things within the Christian faith like the Bible and traditions that Christians rely on to support their belief in what external evidence--historical citations, archeological artifacts, et. al. say is mythical.

How does one study prayer? Simple. A large institution collects five thousand subjects and asks them to pray for people who are in trouble of some sort--no job, no bank account, no rent, dying of cancer, every bone broken laying in a hospital bed. If statistically a certain percentage, 10% I think it is, gets a benefit at some point i.e. a relative comes through with the rent, a spontaneous remission of the cancer, an employer out of 10,000 job applications calls the person back, then the pattern of 90% prayer failures to 10% random successes pretty much proves prayer doesn't work. The question becomes "Why does God consistently in study after study ignore exactly 90% of prayers and answers just 10%?" And it's not just the Christians in the 10% who look like their prayers were answered; it's across all spectrums--Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Baha'i and atheist who don't even have faith, but God answered someone's prayer for the atheist. Get what I'm saying, peace? It's a definite pattern repeated time after time with the same results: 90% lose but 10% win. Almost like when you roll the dice you crap out 90% of the time but 10% of the time you roll 7, come 11. What I'm trying to say, peace is that it's all odds; the luck of the draw; pure chance governing all this. There's no God involved because the outcomes are always statistically the same. That's a fact. Study after study bears this out.

Until something better comes along, peace, scholars are all we got. They pretty much call the reality of ancient history if they have the proper degrees and have the scope of study. You wouldn't go to a witch doctor if you were diagnosed with cancer, would you, peace? You'd go to someone who you believed knew what they were doing.

And if that MD pulls out a wad of chicken gizzard and starts rubbing in on your stomach run like hell!