There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

[dybmh]

Not in Christianity.

Ummm, I'm quite sure that Christians differentiate between witchcraft and prayer.

Anyway, Jesus should be the authority on this if the topic of the debate is Jesus as portrayed in the gospels. No doubt, people are going to be tempted by the promises Jesus made to the disciples. But that doesn't mean much.

 

[Trailblazer]

Frankly if prayer works there should be a way to test it properly.

Do you mean if a believer gets what they asked God for that would mean that God answered their prayer?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You introduced a 2006 study which was supposed to disprove prayer as effective for faith healing.

And it did just that. Prayer did not outperform placebo. If it had, it would have eventually become a part of medical practice, although I should mention that it used to be. I bought a medical book from the 1930s, before the heart valve infection subacute bacterial endocarditis, which is lethal if untreated, was treatable. Under therapy, the entry was "prayer, and hope for a misdiagnosis." I never forgot that.

The study did not test prayer, it tested something closer to witchcraft by treating God like a light switch that can be turned on or off.

No, it treated the alleged god as if it was true to the words attributed to it.

I'm quite sure that Christians differentiate between witchcraft and prayer.

No, they don't. It's all magic and incantations to draw on some power that they believe exists, the difference being that one is directed to their god and the other not. A prayer to Jesus to heal is called a prayer. A prayer to Harry Potter to heal is called witchcraft.

I don't have to worry about that because I know that God exists.

I know you believe that, but I know that the Abrahamic god doesn't exist. Either way, you've already given your life to it, so you might as well hope - no, assume - that you guessed well.

How good is your plan if God exists?

I like my plan. It only fails if the obscene deity that has become popular in the West actually exists, and it has already been ruled out. If other deities exist, I'm sure they'll be as pleased or more pleased to meet people like me as they would any human being that chose a religion. I'm sure that human religions would make any deity cringe.

I don't care what the Church taught, because not only was it false, it is now old news.

Yes, false, but still called the Good News by them. "Have you heard, brother? God has a plan for you."

You were an atheist, then a Christian, then 'returned' to atheism? That's a new one on me. I thought most Christians were raised as Christians.

Probably. Not me, though. I tested Christianity when I already had developed critical thinking skills, which I had agreed to suspend to try the religion on and see if it began to make sense. That's critical thought, too - an experiment. And I'm glad I did. It was like the Army - another early experience that taught be about myself and what I DIDN'T want as much as what I did want. I was a computer programmer in the Army, and learned that I didn't belong in an office cubicle working for unqualified people with ego and power issues. The next stage of my life was making that happen.

 

[dybmh]

And it did just that. Prayer did not outperform placebo.

Whatever the participants did, did not out perform. Maybe I should read the study and see what sort of details it gives.

If it had, it would have eventually become a part of medical practice, although I should mention that it used to be. I bought a medical book from the 1930s, before the heart valve infection subacute bacterial endocarditis, which is lethal if untreated, was treatable. Under therapy, the entry was "prayer, and hope for a misdiagnosis." I never forgot that.

Not bad advice.

No, it treated the alleged god as if it was true to the words attributed to it.

Again, I ask, to whom were those words directed. Please quote the verses in context. Refusing to do so, is a concession that the words in the gospels do not say what you think they are saying.

No, they don't. It's all magic and incantations to draw on some power that they believe exists, the difference being that one is directed to their god and the other not. A prayer to Jesus to heal is called a prayer. A prayer to Harry Potter to heal is called witchcraft.

Well, you're welcome to call it magic, prayer still cannot be tested. What was tested is witchcraft if there is a specific purpose that is expected in return. Again, the prayer is not a light switch that can be turned on and off, that is different.

Temple of Set

The Temple of Set is an occult organization founded in 1975 by Michael A. Aquino (1946[1]–). It has its roots in Anton LaVey's Church of Satan, which Aquino and several other founders left over "philosophical differences". What this meant was that they felt that the Church of Satan was a circus...

rationalwiki.org

 

[Thrillobyte]

So, when you read that article I link to explaining the difference between unity and uniformity, what did you think? Do you "agree to disagree" with that as well?

BTW, I loathe that saying. You cannot speak for the other person and say "we agree to disagree". It's a really patronizing thing to say to someone who has not agreed to this, to speak for them. I don't agree. You are simply in error. But I suspect in most cases, those who say this say so in order to not have to seriously examine their views. It's a cop out, in other words.

Well, I am embarrassed to confess that I actually find the topic of unity vs diversity boring as hell. I just couldn't move myself to get involved with it. I apologize sincerely.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know you believe that, but I know that the Abrahamic god doesn't exist.

If you are referring to the God depicted in the Bible I can agree He does not exist.

Either way, you've already given your life to it, so you might as well hope - no, assume - that you guessed well.

That is rather laughable. I certainly have not given my life to God, since God does not need my life, or my belief.
I did not guess. I based my belief on research and investigation.

I like my plan. It only fails if the obscene deity that has become popular in the West actually exists, and it has already been ruled out.

I guess you mean the deity of Christianity. I have ruled Him out, but I have not ruled out the deity that spoke to Jesus.
Jesus would be aghast at what Christianity teaches in His Name!

If other deities exist, I'm sure they'll be as pleased or more pleased to meet people like me as they would any human being that chose a religion. I'm sure that human religions would make any deity cringe.

I would not be so sure about that as nobody knows what is on the other side. I think the deciding factor will be if you were capable of believing and only God knows if you were or weren't capable.

Some but not all human religions would make the deity cringe. It all depends upon how much they have been corrupted by man.

Yes, false, but still called the Good News by them. "Have you heard, brother? God has a plan for you."

I know it is the Good News to Christians which is an oxymoron because there is nothing "new" about it."

I did hear it yesterday, in the grocery store parking lot. The brochure they were handing out is entitled "Eternal Life is a Free Gift."
These Christians mean well, but they act like they are telling us something we don't already know. If we wanted the Gift we would have accepted it a long time ago, so the fact that we haven't means we don't want it. And beware of anything that is offered as Free as there are usually strings attached!

Probably. Not me, though. I tested Christianity when I already had developed critical thinking skills, which I had agreed to suspend to try the religion on and see if it began to make sense. That's critical thought, too - an experiment. And I'm glad I did. It was like the Army - another early experience that taught be about myself and what I DIDN'T want as much as what I did want. I was a computer programmer in the Army, and learned that I didn't belong in an office cubicle working for unqualified people with ego and power issues. The next stage of my life was making that happen.

That's interesting. I wonder why you would want to 'try out' Christianity. How long did you try it out before you reverted to logic and reason?

 

[dybmh]

@It Aint Necessarily So ,

I can't find details of the 2006 study, but here is a very good summary of all the studies regarding intercessory prayer as well as the religious objections to using science to study it.

Here's a link which will jump you to that specific section:

Outcomes of Intercessory Prayer for those who are Ill: Scientific and Pastoral Perspectives

Intercessory prayer for those who are ill is a common religious practice not only by individuals but also by communities of faith. Although such prayer has much religious meaning, is there scientific evidence that it brings about the outcomes for which ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Thrillobyte]

And it did just that. Prayer did not outperform placebo. If it had, it would have eventually become a part of medical practice, although I should mention that it used to be. I bought a medical book from the 1930s, before the heart valve infection subacute bacterial endocarditis, which is lethal if untreated, was treatable. Under therapy, the entry was "prayer, and hope for a misdiagnosis." I never forgot that.

No, it treated the alleged god as if it was true to the words attributed to it.

No, they don't. It's all magic and incantations to draw on some power that they believe exists, the difference being that one is directed to their god and the other not. A prayer to Jesus to heal is called a prayer. A prayer to Harry Potter to heal is called witchcraft.


I know you believe that, but I know that the Abrahamic god doesn't exist. Either way, you've already given your life to it, so you might as well hope - no, assume - that you guessed well.

I like my plan. It only fails if the obscene deity that has become popular in the West actually exists, and it has already been ruled out. If other deities exist, I'm sure they'll be as pleased or more pleased to meet people like me as they would any human being that chose a religion. I'm sure that human religions would make any deity cringe.

Yes, false, but still called the Good News by them. "Have you heard, brother? God has a plan for you."

Probably. Not me, though. I tested Christianity when I already had developed critical thinking skills, which I had agreed to suspend to try the religion on and see if it began to make sense. That's critical thought, too - an experiment. And I'm glad I did. It was like the Army - another early experience that taught be about myself and what I DIDN'T want as much as what I did want. I was a computer programmer in the Army, and learned that I didn't belong in an office cubicle working for unqualified people with ego and power issues. The next stage of my life was making that happen.

Yes, false, but still called the Good News by them. "Have you heard, brother? God has a plan for you."

God has a plan for these kids too, and as you can see it's making bricks.

 

[Trailblazer]

@It Aint Necessarily So ,

I can't find details of the 2006 study, but here is a very good summary of all the studies regarding intercessory prayer as well as the religious objections to using science to study it.

Here's a link which will jump you to that specific section:

Outcomes of Intercessory Prayer for those who are Ill: Scientific and Pastoral Perspectives

Intercessory prayer for those who are ill is a common religious practice not only by individuals but also by communities of faith. Although such prayer has much religious meaning, is there scientific evidence that it brings about the outcomes for which ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That's a good article. I particularly like this part of it and I consider it logic 101 stuff:

If God is, God must be ultimately beyond human understanding. Otherwise, God would not be God but would be subject to us and our wants, thereby watering down divinity. If God is beyond human understanding, and free to make His own decisions, then why should we expect that God would respond in a knee-jerk fashion to every request people make? Long ago, the prophet Isaiah learned: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”33 Some human requests are selfish or trivial, while other human requests are altruistic or profound. We will never understand why some prayers are answered in the way the petitioner requests, while others are not. That is the human condition, and it does not necessarily mean there is no God but, rather, that we are not God.​

 

[Trailblazer]

God has a plan for these kids too, and as you can see it's making bricks.

That is not God's plan. Why do you think it is God's plan?

 

[dybmh]

@Thrillobyte ,

So is that it? The debate's over about the gospels?

1. Jesus wasn't really on the "mythical scale"
2. the fact that ancient historians didn't write about him and the miracles really doesn't undermine the entire story
3. much of the doctrine you object to is not gospel

 

[Thrillobyte]

That is not God's plan. Why do you think it is God's plan?

Because the Bible says "I have a plan for you." And God never lies, does he?

 

[Thrillobyte]

@Thrillobyte ,

So is that it? The debate's over about the gospels?

1. Jesus wasn't really on the "mythical scale"
2. the fact that ancient historians didn't write about him and the miracles really doesn't undermine the entire story
3. much of the doctrine you object to is not gospel

I only ever ask of Christians one thing:

Show me a single secular historical mention of "Jesus the Christ was crucified by the Romans and rose on the 3rd day." Is that too much to ask?

Would that have been too great a task for Jesus' father, God who is omnipotent according to the rumors and who presumably wants people to believe in his son?

 

[Trailblazer]

Because the Bible says "I have a plan for you." And God never lies, does he?

That's too vague. Where does the Bible say "I have a plan for you"?
So you think that everything that happens in this world to everybody is according to God's plan?
I guess you never heard of free will.

 

[Thrillobyte]

That's too vague. Where does the Bible say "I have a plan for you"?
So you think that everything that happens in this world to everybody is according to God's plan?
I guess you never heard of free will.

Jeremiah 29:11

11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

This kid really looks like God is prospering him and giving him hope for a good future. Seriously, Trail does this kid look like he's out there because he wants to be?

 

[Alien826]

You introduced a 2006 study which was supposed to disprove prayer as effective for faith healing. The study did not test prayer, it tested something closer to witchcraft by treating God like a light switch that can be turned on or off. People don't realize that.

This is something I have thought about in the past. If god is truly superior to us in ability and knowledge, then it's not something we can experiment on. The explanation is the same as why we experiment on mice, but mice don't experiment on us. We have the power to limit the actions of mice, and the mice have no such power over us.

It's all very well to set up an experiment to test a superior being, but we have to remember that the being has no obligation to cooperate, and we have no way to enforce that cooperation. It would be perfectly reasonable to suggest that god deliberately ignored all the prayers in that study.

Something else I worked out, and actually tried. How do you find out about a god-like being, starting with its existence of course? My conclusion was that the only way that made sense was to ask, politely, knowing that the only way I would get an answer was if god decided to respond. If I got a response, whoopie! If not, either god didn't exist or didn't want to talk to me. Either way I'd learned something.

 

[nPeace]

The literal events of the Bible did not happen. They are stories invented to teach a human perspective on a God, and his judgment, and condemnation. There's very little useful wisdom.
And I see no genuine love in it.

You sound so assertive, as though you are actually stating facts.
We both know you aren't though, don't we.

 

[dybmh]

Why would they stop? I'm talking about a god instituting a totally new way of dealing with us.

I don't know, maybe it gets mad at us.

 

[dybmh]

This is something I have thought about in the past. If god is truly superior to us in ability and knowledge, then it's not something we can experiment on. The explanation is the same as why we experiment on mice, but mice don't experiment on us. We have the power to limit the actions of mice, and the mice have no such power over us.

It's all very well to set up an experiment to test a superior being, but we have to remember that the being has no obligation to cooperate, and we have no way to enforce that cooperation. It would be perfectly reasonable to suggest that god deliberately ignored all the prayers in that study.

Something else I worked out, and actually tried. How do you find out about a god-like being, starting with its existence of course? My conclusion was that the only way that made sense was to ask, politely, knowing that the only way I would get an answer was if god decided to respond. If I got a response, whoopie! If not, either god didn't exist or didn't want to talk to me. Either way I'd learned something.

Another interesting tidbit of rationalization for the "why it didn't work" question of faith healing from the linked article. A person asked if it was fair, for God to heal only those whom were randomly selected to receive the prayers. They posit that God would not operate that way.

I though that was a so-so reason. Something I hadn't thought of.

 

[dybmh]

I only ever ask of Christians one thing:

Show me a single secular historical mention of "Jesus the Christ was crucified by the Romans and rose on the 3rd day." Is that too much to ask?

It is if it was only witnessed by a few, and the story spread slowly and didn't really take off until the time you have identified, when politicians / rulers used it to amass power.

Would that have been too great a task for Jesus' father, God who is omnipotent according to the rumors and who presumably wants people to believe in his son?

It would have been too much if the desired outcome is belief not knowledge.

I've written a small bit about this here. And I'm not going to subject you to the rationale, unless you want to hear it. But, there's a benefit to this method, skipping over knowledge in favor of belief. Knowledge is a cage. But belief permits a wide diverse audience to have a 100% true relationship with an infinite formless being.