There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

[mikkel_the_dane]

If you don't know what hearsay is, then there's no point discussing it with you. But just for your education:

hear·say
"information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor."
"according to hearsay, Bob had managed to break his arm"

The problem is in purely academic terms is that adequately substantiate has no objective standard. It is always subjective for all different standards including yours and mine. We have hit cognitive relativism in effect.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How? By going into a mosque and burning a koran. Or, by lecturing a group of school-children about atheism during math class.

Yes, there's a problem with the rioters, but there's also a problem inciting a riot.

Both of those activities are illegal. But they should not "incite a riot". If that was the reaction then the blame lies totally on the rioters.

You need to come up with something better.

 

[lukethethird]

That's a very slanderous statement to make.
How would you like someone to say you only believe what those friends you want to keep company, fills your head with?

Someone did so I learned to think for myself, anybody can believe a prescribed set of religious beliefs because that requires no thought process whatsoever.

 

[dybmh]

Both of those activities are illegal. But they should not "incite a riot". If that was the reaction then the blame lies totally on the rioters.

You need to come up with something better.

OK.

 

[Jimmy]

Someone did so I learned to think for myself, anybody can believe a prescribed set of religious beliefs because that requires no thought process whatsoever.

And what did you come up with? Evolution? That’s prescribed too

 

[lukethethird]

And what did you come up with? Evolution? That’s prescribed too

No it is not. Evolution is what is observed and explained, and I try to understand it to the best of my ability. I don't believe in evolution, it's not Santa Claus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No it is not. Evolution is what is observed and explained, and I try to understand it to the best of my ability. I don't believe in evolution, it's not Santa Claus.

Creationists seem to realize that they only have a belief. And to make themselves feel better about that they have to accuse others of the same.

 

[Windwalker]

Why would he? A consensus of experts is different from a consensus of faith-based thinkers.

Because what he was deriding was not a consensus of faith-based thinkers, but historians, not using religious faith, who all agreed that Jesus was a historical person, based up the standards of secular historians. That's why. He just didn't like that the scholarly consensus was against his beliefs, just like creationists don't like what the secular scientists say too. Direct comparison. Neither is faith based.

He said that in reference to this: Historical Jesus - Wikipedia

The term "historical Jesus" refers to the reconstruction of the life and teachings of Jesus by critical historical methods, in contrast to religious interpretations.[1][2] It also considers the historical and cultural contexts in which Jesus lived.[3][4][5] Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and attempts to deny his historicity have been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory.[6][7][8][9][10]​

I would. That's a very ordinary life that didn't become extraordinary just because Jesus died. Jesus had nothing to do with the growth of that religion.

Of course he did. He was reason the movement started in the first place, and then he became mythologized because of how those that were part of that movement saw him. That was an actual person that inspired others. They didn't just sit around at the bar one day and say, "Hey, let's start a religion."

That was the work of Paul, Constantine, the crusaders, the conquistadores, the missionaries, and the millions of people that made a living perpetuating the religion.

All inspired by the person. It's like saying that there was no stone that fell which started the avalanche. While the avalanche is the combined forces of many stones falling together, the historical Jesus would have been the one to kick it off, or at least inspire the other stones to tumble.

Did you see the commercials for Jesus on the Superbowl? That's what made the religion, not the mundane travels and words of yet another itinerant preacher.

No, I hadn't until just now to see what you were talking about. Sure, that's what made the movement grow. But they were hardly mundane words. They obviously spoke loudly enough to inspire people to listen. Right place, right time, sort of thing. Same thing with the Buddha, who spoke the same words as Jesus did, which you call mundane.

For instance:

Jesus: "Do to others as you would have them do to you". "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Buddha: "Consider others as yourself"

Jesus: "If anyone strike you on the cheek, turn to him the other also"
Buddha: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand... you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words".

Jesus: "Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who abuse you. For anyone who takes away you coat, do not withhold even your shirt."
Buddha: "Hatreds do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love. This is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by being good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

 

[Jimmy]

No it is not. Evolution is what is observed and explained, and I try to understand it to the best of my ability. I don't believe in evolution, it's not Santa Claus.

Prescribed, nonetheless.

 

[Ashoka]

Not really, Christians were relentlessly persecuted, hunted down and killed in its early days. You are focusing on later missteps by the institutional church and associated governments.

Did Jesus tell anyone to use violence to spread his spiritual teachings?

My point in posting that quote was to demonstrate that, historically speaking, Christianity, while being a persecuted religion at one point, at another rose up and became the persecutors, using the Bible as a weapon.

Jesus spoke many times of turning family members against each other. He told his followers to buy swords and told a parable where the end result was having anyone who objected to him killed in front of him.

Jesus spoke of throwing people in hell without any pity. He called a woman a dog. In Revelation, he is depicted as a terrible dictator.

Christians may have been persecuted, and still are in some countries. But its own history is bloody, and instead of Christians saying "I don't claim them", maybe they should. Maybe they should take responsibility and say, "you know what? We messed up. We need to do better."

Eleanore was wrong about that. You can enforce behavior with violence, but you can't enforce belief that way. In fact, all that's likely to happen is that you will encourage an intense anti-belief by using violence.

I wish I could also say he was wrong, but history shows us otherwise. Witchhunts. The inquisitions. The crusades. Horrible violent deaths against anyone who dissented.

Christianity made a name for itself, and it did so through massacring entire groups of people. Look at the massacre of the Cathers; look at the Goa Inquisition, in particular. How saints spoke of nonbelievers. It is fear-based completely and totally. Look at the anti-Semitism that was spouted by Christians, for instance.

 

[lukethethird]

Prescribed, nonetheless.

It's not prescribed, it's explained, big difference.

 

[Augustus]

If you don't know what hearsay is, then there's no point discussing it with you. But just for your education:

hear·say
"information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor."
"according to hearsay, Bob had managed to break his arm"

You are confusing yourself.

1. Tacitus might well have been able to adequately substantiate the information so it’s not hearsay. Agreed?

2. Unless you want to treat this completely differently to all other ancient history (which would be very strange), we don’t refer to ancient historical texts as “hearsay” for not using modern citations for their sources. Agreed?

But bitter anti-theists tend to be about as interested in nuanced and critical insights as the fundies they look down on are.

Peas in a pod.

Maybe best to focus on educating yourself next time, eh?

 

[Jimmy]

It's not prescribed, it's explained, big difference.

They all come from a doc. Hahaha

 

[Jimmy]

It's not prescribed, it's explained, big difference.

Look up prescribed

 

[Colt]

My point in posting that quote was to demonstrate that, historically speaking, Christianity, while being a persecuted religion at one point, at another rose up and became the persecutors, using the Bible as a weapon.

Jesus spoke many times of turning family members against each other. He told his followers to buy swords and told a parable where the end result was having anyone who objected to him killed in front of him.

Jesus spoke of throwing people in hell without any pity. He called a woman a dog. In Revelation, he is depicted as a terrible dictator.

Christians may have been persecuted, and still are in some countries. But its own history is bloody, and instead of Christians saying "I don't claim them", maybe they should. Maybe they should take responsibility and say, "you know what? We messed up. We need to do better."



I wish I could also say he was wrong, but history shows us otherwise. Witchhunts. The inquisitions. The crusades. Horrible violent deaths against anyone who dissented.

Christianity made a name for itself, and it did so through massacring entire groups of people. Look at the massacre of the Cathers; look at the Goa Inquisition, in particular. How saints spoke of nonbelievers. It is fear-based completely and totally. Look at the anti-Semitism that was spouted by Christians, for instance.

* Jesus said that the "truth" of the gospel might lead families to turn on one another. His own people put him through a kangaroo court up and had him crucified!

* Hell was a warped translation of the word "death".

* Revelation is distorted garbage from its original form.

* The Christian church messed up!

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't find the Bible any more inspiring than I do the Quran, which is another ancient sacred book that has been read by millions of people for millennia.

It depends on how you interpret it. And know it

 

[blü 2]

Objective reality is not what humans decide it is. Objective reality exists regardless of human existence.

So what? The advantage of the correspondence definition of truth is that it gives as close to an objective standard as we can obtain ─ a quality totally lacking and sorely missed in discussions of the supernatural, and whose absence explains why there have been countless thousands of gods across the globe and across the ages

Well, that's vastly more honest than your previous replies. Well done.

 

[Colt]

Where in hell did you get that?

Paul "

• Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

 

[YoursTrue]

What is the virtue in claiming to know the truth and telling people they are better off killing themselves? What is so evil about not claiming to know the truth and not believing in telling people they are better off dead?

It was obviously a hyperbole showing how important it is for someone not to be stumbled by someone determined to give misleading information if they are on the narrow road.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

My point in posting that quote was to demonstrate that, historically speaking, Christianity, while being a persecuted religion at one point, at another rose up and became the persecutors, using the Bible as a weapon.

Jesus spoke many times of turning family members against each other. He told his followers to buy swords and told a parable where the end result was having anyone who objected to him killed in front of him.

Jesus spoke of throwing people in hell without any pity. He called a woman a dog. In Revelation, he is depicted as a terrible dictator.

Christians may have been persecuted, and still are in some countries. But its own history is bloody, and instead of Christians saying "I don't claim them", maybe they should. Maybe they should take responsibility and say, "you know what? We messed up. We need to do better."

Winner frubal.