There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

[Trailblazer]

But if you believed that brick wall had the power to transform your life, I'll bet you your prayers would be answered.

but only if the brick wall chose to answer those prayers.
God is not a short order cook.

 

[WalterTrull]

You might take a look at this

 

[Alien826]

No, we can't. "By their fruits you shall know them", not by their claims and their words. If someone has a genuine spiritual experience, it shows.

Something interesting happened to me some years ago.

I had been a lifelong atheist, and quite content with it. Then I conducted an experiment where I prayed, kind of into nowhere, and asked "god" if it existed and wanted to, to respond to me. I phrased it a respectfully and put no limits on what the response should be, or how quickly it should appear. To my great surprise, I received a "sign" that was totally convincing to me.

That started me on a "conversation" with whatever it was I had contacted. I realized that I had no reason to think it was any of the accepted "god forms" from any of the established religions. I joined a Christian church, on its urging, and continued my studies there. I found that none of the supernatural beliefs of the church (the Trinity, resurrection and so on) made any sense to me. I did arrive at a picture of something similar to what I think you are describing, a formless "something" that existed under and within everything.

Some time later, the whole thing faded away, and I lost interest in it. I concluded that the ability of the human mind to fool itself is close to limitless. It seems I had something missing from my life and wanted it badly enough to create remarkable illusion.

Now, I have returned to my atheism, but with a sense of peace having replaced whatever it was that drove me to conducting the experiment in the first place. I no longer seem to need to understand everything, and will drift gently to the end of my life, not far off now, with the satisfaction of knowing that I looked into a mysterious place and found it empty.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

But if you believed that brick wall had the power to transform your life, I'll bet you your prayers would be answered.

I'd have better luck believing that the brick wall could transform my life than I ever had believing that God would transform my life. If you knew my story, then you'd understand why I said this. I wasted the majority of my life believing in God, having faith in God, and praying to God. A little over two years ago, there came a point in my life when I was finally honest with myself and acknowledged that if there is a God, he obviously has no interest in helping me, or else there is no God and everything I believed was in vain. For 40 years, I believed in God, had faith in God, and prayed to God. It took me 40 years to finally come to my senses and admit that I was a fool to believe in God as I did. It was a hard lesson to learn, and it was even more difficult to let it go.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Nonsense, on both accounts.

If you have some facts on any gods, we're all ears.

 

[Trailblazer]

that a messenger of god is proof of a god, as in a is true because b is true, and b is true because a is true.

But that's not it at all.

a (Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God) is not true because b (God exists) is true.

God does not exist because Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God since God could exist and not send Messengers.​

​

b (God exists) is not true because a (Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God) is true.

Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God because God exists. If God exists, God exists, and God may or may not have Messengers.​

Baha'u'llah was only a Messenger of God if God sent Him as His Messenger.​

Correctly stated:

IF a (Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God) is true THEN b (God exists) is true because God cannot send a Messenger unless God exists.

Moreover, the most direct proof of God is the Messenger, since there are nothing between the premise and the conclusion.

 

[freelight]

--------------o

By whatever records or image we have of Jesus, it is up to each person to judge for themselves if he is 'real' and/or that his message is valid, having substance and reality for today, plus the whole realm of 'religious experience' in accepting Jesus and his religion (how he lived, related and served 'God' ) as an example for others to FOLLOW. - here we differentiate between the pop religion of modern day Christianity, a religion ABOUT Jesus, versus the religion that Jesus himself taught and lived (the religion OF Jesus), if we could determine his real teachings in prose and parable. - the Urantia Book btw notes this distinction for what its worth

I grew up reverring Jesus as a mormon, then born again christian charasmatic, and still love Jesus even as a more liberal mystic or theosophist of today,....pretty eclectic here on the spiritual/religious side things, a gnostic at heart - Jesus is whoever he is in the written records, channelled messages and in your own personal experience, thats all we have! Take what you will. - the universal law holds....."ask, seek and knock"...and the Source of all will respond.

Diving into all the evidence for and against, and every concept of Jesus or the 'Christ' is fun,....its all symbolic anyways, - its how we translate and interpret things, - how this 'Christ-spirit' can live in us, affecting real change and transformation of the soul,...its psychological significance on every level possible, tapping into our divine potential, towards progress, reformation, 'salvation', 'ascension'......it can be about your own path to self discovery and liberation. Actually whats else is it about??? Take or leave Jesus, its your choice,.....hes as 'real' as any other historical character, and even MORE to some experiencers, no matter the variety or 'version' of Jesus accepted. - all adaptations are subject to change....just go with the flow!

My studies of Jesus in the more recent past have been more eclectic,.....from the Bible records, gnostic gospels, A Course in Miracles, The Urantia Book, the James E Padgett messages, some ascended master teachings/dictations, Spiritualist/Spiritist writings,...and much more.

At the end of the day, Paul saw that the mystery of the ages was 'Christ in us, the hope of glory',......the mortal soul putting on immortality, receiving its own 'CHRISTHOOD', assuming its own divine sonship with the Father. - all is symbolism, allegory, analogy, figurative.....its about how we interpret and apply the story, metaphors and teachings. Thats it folks,...but alot more involved of course, exploring all dimensions and meanings that such language reveals. I enjoy it all as a 'meta-theist' of sorts,......the essentials in all these forms is first the 'esoteric' truths and principles therein. Thats my inner theosophist for ya lol. All is mirrored in the One Universal MIND that includes us all, of which we are all fractals. There is only one Universal LIGHT, variously reflected,.....which includes the whole universe of seen(known) and unseen(unknown) worlds........infinity includes all

There may be no 'evidence' by some people's 'criteria' standards for the Jesus of the gospels, but the spiritual 'Christ' or 'Spirit' of 'God' is its own evidence in the human soul, the inspirer and enlightener. Gnosis is the expereintial knowing of whatever has real meaning or value, and the Jesus Story provides both as a template, blueprint and pattern of our own journey Godward, a path of transformation, a discovery of the kingdom of heaven on earth....

Injoy!





-------------o

 

[Trailblazer]

If you have some facts on any gods, we're all ears.

*OPTIMISTIC*

 

[Trailblazer]

there came a point in my life when I was finally honest with myself and acknowledged that if there is a God, he obviously has no interest in helping me,

With all due respect, regardless of your childhood, you landed on your feet. You have five children, a grandchild on the way, a great husband and a useful life helping earthbound spirits cross over to the spiritual world. Did you ever think that God is actually helping you? I did.

Would you rather be me? I just lost my husband of 37 years and I have no children or any other family, and I have no in-person friends.
How did my life turn out this way? Not for lack of trying to make it better. It seems to me that I am the one who should be angry at God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He said, "scientific theory is only concerned with facts,". That is a false statement. Scientific Theories are models of explanation, not statements of facts. That is the first error.

The second error he said was, "there are no facts concerning gods." Whatever does that really mean? There is the fact that people have believed in them. That is a fact. There is also the fact that people have mystical experiences, which may manfiest to them as their particular deity forms. This is also documented and historical facts. Mystical expeirences actually happen. So "there are no facts concerning gods", is already a false statement right there.

So as I said, he was wrong on both accounts. Right?

You appear to have been taking her comments too literally.

 

[Trailblazer]

You appear to have been taking her comments too literally.

The fact that people have mystical experiences does not mean that it is a fact that these experiences involved a deity.
The fact that people believe in God does not mean God is a fact. If God was a fact belief would be unnecessary.
"there are no facts concerning gods" is a true statement.

 

[Thrillobyte]

I was disappointed too, because I spent the majority of my life believing in Jesus and God. Like most former Christians I know, it was a real eye-opener for me when I got into researching the authenticity of the Bible and Christian theology. It began with a seed of doubt being planted as I helped my nephew obtain his Master of Theological Studies degree. A seed of doubt was sown while we studied the Bible and Christian theology as part of the requirements to earn the degree. The seed began to sprout during this time, and by the time I completed extensive training in an evangelistic ministry, it had grown into a fully flowering plant. I had read the Bible cover to cover several times before I began to help my nephew, but this was the first time I had read it with the intent to authenticate it. I read it without the influence of other Christians telling me what I should or should not believe about it. I suppose you could say that I read the Bible in a different light, which completely changed my perspective on it and made me to question everything I believed as a Christian. I tried to ignore all of my doubts for a long time, but I eventually reached a point where I couldn't. I realized I had to be honest with myself, and that's when I began to reevaluate what I believed as a Christian. This ultimately led to my decision to finally stop believing in God and renounce my Christian faith.

And that's the key phrase, "be honest with myself". Christians make a big deal about "Let the Holy Spirit soften your heart and lead you to Jesus" but the opposite is also true, "Let the Spirit of Knowledge' lead you to the truth of the fraudulence of Jesus and Christianity". One has to brace oneself for the repercussions of learning the truth about Christianity and be willing to accept the consequences of their carefully orchestrated Christian world collapsing around them--loss of friends, loss of Church fellowship, fun group outings, get-togethers for dinner, movies, dances, etc. and being completely shunned by their Christian friends who choose to remain in darkness. Those who have to courage to come out of the darkness into the light of truth like yourself, Pepper are to be commended and congratulated.

 

[Thrillobyte]

Excellent! You have now proven my point. The very fact that Ehman acknowledges these things, yet he rejects this notion that Jesus never existed, proves my point! Thank you.

As I said, citing that fact does not mean that Jesus never existed. Yet that is what you claim. Bart Ehrman, as a secular, non-religious, agnostic scholar, an expert in the field unlike you, accepts that Jesus did really exist, despite there not be any external secular sources who cite him. In other words, that is not the only reason for accepting Jesus was a real person, that does not entail drinking the Kool Aid of religious faith. If you want to understand his basis for why he believes he existed, and folks like Price and other mythicists are wrong, read his books.

Additionally, scholars that I refer to who offer sound reasons for why Jesus did exist historically, outside the realm of a matter of religious faith, accepting for secular historical reasons, I'd direct you to my favorite author, and the one of the top scholars on the historical Jesus, and co-founder of the Jesus Seminar (which conservative and fundamentalist groups hate), read John Dominic Crossan.

As I said, your citing there are no external references, is not a valid basis for denying Jesus ever existed. That is a fringe, and not well supported opinion among both religious and secular scholars. Have I made my point now?

Let's clear up a potential misunderstanding here, Wind. One yes/no questions please and then I'll get to the rest of your post:

Does Ehrman acknowledge the existence of the miracle-working Jesus, son of God born of a virgin who caused a great darkness to ascend on the earth for 3 hours at his death and rose from the dead 3 days later?

 

[F1fan]

I said scientists do not study things that are outside of nature.

Right, because we can't determine there is anything that exists outside of nature. The funny thing is that if a God exists it would be subject to examination, but thus far God/gods are in the category of imaginary beings.

That is what I meant by they don't "examine" the transcendent.

You didn't explain what was trascendent, so I made the point that science does move humanity from ignorance to knowledge, which is transcendent in a real way.

That was my precisely chosen wording. And that is accurate. Science cannot, nor does deal with questions about the existence of God.

Because gods are in the same category as other imaginary characters, like the Tooth Fairy, and they aren't subject to science either. Does that make the Tooth Fairy special? No, and nor are gods. There is a lot of cultural power in the popularity of gods, but being objective means understanding why this is, and dismissing it. It's related to the fallacy of argument by popularity. Critical thinkers follow the evidence, and reason based on what the evidence dictates.

Don't want to take my word for it? How about from the National Academy of Science? Does science disprove the existence of God? - The Science Behind It.

"Science doesn’t have the processes to prove or disprove the existence of God. Science studies and attempts to explain only the natural world while God, in most religions, is supernatural."​

Is there anything really more to argue here?

Sure, is there an article on disproving the Tooth Fairy? Or does it limit its question on beliefs that only adults have? This article isn't anything a critical thinker would need to read because we understand what the answer is. The article is written for believers who might have reasoning skill, but not apply it to their religious belief.

Science works towards discovery what is true about the processes of nature. It does not for instance deal with questions of value and meaning. It does not deal with matters of beauty. Nor does it deal with the big questions such as the purpose of life, or if there is or is not some God behind it all. Those questions are outside of the role or abilities of science to address. You don't use a wrench to write a sonnet or compose a symphony.

Notice you aren't mentioning supernatural beings here, but things that humans value whether religious or not. Then you mention purpose and God as if these are real things. If we humans have any purpose then it is what we have decided for ourselves. To assume a God, and a purpose via a God, is nothing more that a guess, there are no facts. This is why science can't examine these, the lack of facts. Humans believe all sorts of irrational things and science can't invesigate the imagined. Science can't study the biology of Mickey Mouse. Don't you want to know how Mickey talks? Of course you do, we all do, and science can't explain it to us. Science sucks, right? But science can examine why people believe in a God, or many gods, or if they believe we have a purpose on earth, and it does. There is a large body of work that explains why people are religious and believe in ideas that are not fact-based.

Not necessarily true at all. Many seek to expand and grow our understandings of the world and our place in it.

I wrote "Theologians and philosophers do work to keep old assumptions and beliefs alive", so in what way have they expanded our understanding of the world and our place in it? I notice your following sentences don't explain any success in this. Even your comment here admits they "seek to expand". So again, I assert the religious and even most philosophy works to maintain a status quo. I will admit that philosophers do tend to think and write to the current issues and problems, like the dilemma of AI. We have to concede they are speculating and predicting outcomes, not explaining things via facts.

What you are talking about are traditionalists, not philosophers or even theologians necessarily. Besides that, you have traditionalists in the sciences as well who fight against new ideas in science and work to keep the old assumptions alive as well. Don't lay that at the feet of religion. People are people are people, and you find those same attitudes existing in all disciplines.

I am not sure what theists have to offer that isn't tradition. I dated a girl some years ago that went to a progressive church and I went with her to witness it myself. It was more like a school talent show than traditional church services. I think they are working to keep people and families engaged, but the messages are the same. It's nothing I wasn't aware of myself. Frankly the messages are so basic that I would have been surprised if anyone there didn't know then already, but going to church is a traditional act, and the theater of it is a way to make it more entertaining.

You are mistaking religion as being the sole place you find conservatism. The reality is you have progressives there as well.

I never claimed it was all about conservatism. And I just noted my exverience with a progressive church. Conservative Christianity in the USA is the only area of Christianity that is growing, all others are losing members. Religion is a business and they need to generate revenue like any other business. That they are tax exempt is something I find problematic when they get involved in politics.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Do you believe the Bible's claims that there was a talking serpent, a talking donkey, and a man who spent three days inside the stomach of a big fish?

Satan could have easily used the Serpent as a ventriloquist uses his dummy. Satan being like a behind-the-scenes puppet master.

Years ago there was a foreign newspaper article about a man who was swallowed by a BIG fish and the fish did spit him out.
( I don't recall for how long he was in the fish ) He was pasty-white looking in the picture but alive and walking.

Please notice there was an angel involved at Numbers 22:28-31 please also see 2nd Peter 2:15-16 B.
So, the really voiceless animal that hindered that prophet's mad course was because God caused the speaking.

Do you believe that the powers in charge will be saying, " Peace and Security....." as found at 1st Thess. 5:2-3 _________

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No mortal can live forever on earth since the physical body is subject to death and decomposition.
Mortal humans will live forever in Heaven since the soul is immortal.

I am wondering how you know the soul is immortal ( death proof ) _____________________
Certainly Not from the Bible because the Bible teaches that the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20
If the soul was immortal there would be No need for a resurrection. The living do Not need a resurrection.

What causes the physical body to be subject to sickness and death/decomposition _____________
According to the Bible sin causes death . No sin would equal No death. No sickness equals No death.
Mortals Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life ( live forever ) on Earth
Angels are offered everlasting life ( live forever ) in Heaven. Angels are also mortals.
Sinner Satan will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B
Earth is Not a stepping stone to Heaven, but Jesus chose some to governing in Heaven with him. People like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18
God original and still permanent purpose for mankind is everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Angels were never dead humans to be resurrected to Heaven.
Angels were created in Heaven and Heaven is the home for angels.
Humans were created on Earth and Earth is the home of humans - Psalm 115:16

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"There is but this one God, and his name is Truth."
UB 131:1.3​

The old King James at Psalm 83:18 B does Not say God's name is Truth, but surely God's name (YHWH) stands for Truth ( religious truth )

 

[Trailblazer]

I am wondering how you know the soul is immortal ( death proof ) _____________________
Certainly Not from the Bible because the Bible teaches that the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20

The soul that sins dies means that the soul that sins will not have eternal life. Eternal life is a state of the soul that is close to God.
Eternal life comes from believing in Jesus because by believing in Jesus one knows God and is close to God (in heart and mind).

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.​

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.​

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

The fact that the Bible says that the soul that sins dies means that the soul that does not sin lives, and it lives forever, because it has eternal life.
However, since the soul is immortal, the soul that sins will continue to exist forever, but it will be separated from God.

If the soul was immortal there would be No need for a resurrection. The living do Not need a resurrection

There is no need for a resurrection of the physical body since the soul does not die after the physical body dies.
After the physical body dies the soul is raised as a spiritual body and goes to heaven where it continues to live forever.
The physical body cannot exist in the Kingdom of God in heaven. That is why it needs to be transformed into a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation​

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.​

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.​

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.​

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!​

What causes the physical body to be subject to sickness and death/decomposition _____________

The FACT that the physical body is mortal is what causes death and decomposition.

Decomposition begins at the moment of death, caused by two factors: 1.) autolysis, the breaking down of tissues by the body's own internal chemicals and enzymes, and 2.) putrefaction, the breakdown of tissues by bacteria.​

Decomposition - Wikipedia​

According to the Bible sin causes death . No sin would equal No death. No sickness equals No death.

According to the Bible sin causes spiritual death . No sin would equal No spiritual death. No spiritual sickness equals No spiritual death.

Mortals Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life ( live forever ) on Earth
Angels are offered everlasting life ( live forever ) in Heaven. Angels are also mortals.

Adam and Eve were offered everlasting life ( live forever ) on Earth is a false belief that came about from a misinterpretation of Bible verses.
Angels are offered everlasting life ( live forever ) in Heaven is a false belief that came about from a misinterpretation of Bible verses.

Sinner Satan will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B

There is no being called Satan. Satan in the Bible symbolizes the lower evil nature of man.

Earth is Not a stepping stone to Heaven, but Jesus chose some to governing in Heaven with him. People like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18
God original and still permanent purpose for mankind is everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

Earth is a stepping stone to Heaven because it is preparation for Heaven.
God's original and still permanent purpose for mankind is everlasting life in Heaven.
There will be a New Earth for the generations if people who are born here and they will live here until they die and their souls ascend to Heaven.

Angels were never dead humans to be resurrected to Heaven.
Angels were created in Heaven and Heaven is the home for angels.

Angels are holy beings who are on Earth and in Heaven.

“And now, concerning His words: “And He shall send His angels….” By “angels” is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim..... And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as “angels.” Such is the meaning of these verses, every word of which hath been expounded by the aid of the most lucid texts, the most convincing arguments, and the best established evidences.” Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 78-80​

Humans were created on Earth and Earth is the home of humans - Psalm 115:16

Earth is the home for humans while they are living in a physical body, but after humans die their bodies decompose and go back to the Earth and their soul (spirit) returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156​

 

[dybmh]

Something interesting happened to me some years ago.

I had been a lifelong atheist, and quite content with it. Then I conducted an experiment where I prayed, kind of into nowhere, and asked "god" if it existed and wanted to, to respond to me. I phrased it a respectfully and put no limits on what the response should be, or how quickly it should appear. To my great surprise, I received a "sign" that was totally convincing to me.

That started me on a "conversation" with whatever it was I had contacted. I realized that I had no reason to think it was any of the accepted "god forms" from any of the established religions. I joined a Christian church, on its urging, and continued my studies there. I found that none of the supernatural beliefs of the church (the Trinity, resurrection and so on) made any sense to me. I did arrive at a picture of something similar to what I think you are describing, a formless "something" that existed under and within everything.

Some time later, the whole thing faded away, and I lost interest in it. I concluded that the ability of the human mind to fool itself is close to limitless. It seems I had something missing from my life and wanted it badly enough to create remarkable illusion.

Now, I have returned to my atheism, but with a sense of peace having replaced whatever it was that drove me to conducting the experiment in the first place. I no longer seem to need to understand everything, and will drift gently to the end of my life, not far off now, with the satisfaction of knowing that I looked into a mysterious place and found it empty.

That's a really interesting story. Thank you for sharing. Would love to hear more details on your conversation with it. If you want to send me a PM, that works. Otherwise, just know I appreciated what you said.

 

[lukethethird]

He said, "scientific theory is only concerned with facts,". That is a false statement. Scientific Theories are models of explanation, not statements of facts. That is the first error.

The second error he said was, "there are no facts concerning gods." Whatever does that really mean? There is the fact that people have believed in them. That is a fact. There is also the fact that people have mystical experiences, which may manfiest to them as their particular deity forms. This is also documented and historical facts. Mystical expeirences actually happen. So "there are no facts concerning gods", is already a false statement right there.

So as I said, he was wrong on both accounts. Right?

Scientific theory is a body of facts, and if a given fact turns out to be false it is ejected from theory.

There are no facts concerning gods, people can believe all manor of things and it is well understood that people can believe a falsehood, or reject a truth. The human experience can be explained using natural terms, invoking the supernatural to explain the human experience is a falsehood and only results in question begging simply because there are no facts as regards to the so called supernatural, beliefs notwithstanding.