There is NO SCIENCE in the qu'ran

[McBell]

Excerpt from "The Great Muslim Scientist and Philosopher."


"Abu Shakir, you have said that I have fabricated stories and ask the people to worship Allah, who cannot be seen. You refuse to acknowledge existence of Allah, because He cannot be seen. Can you see inside your own body?"

Replied Abu Shakir: "No, I cannot."

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: "If you could have seen what is inside you, you would not have said that you do not believe in Allah, who cannot be seen."

Abu Shakir asked: "What is the relationship between seeing within one's own body and the existence of your unseen Allah?"

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) replied: "You have said just now that a thing, which cannot be seen, touched, tasted or heard, does not exist."

Abu Shakir said: "Yes, I have said that and I believe it is true."

Jafar as-Sadiq asked: "Do you hear the sound of the movement of blood in your body?"

Said Abu Shakir: "No, I do not. But does blood move in the body?

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (A. S.) said: "Yes, it does. It makes a full circuit of your body. If the circulation of blood stops for a few minutes you will die."

Abu Shakir said: "I cannot believe that blood circulates in the body."

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: "It is your ignorance, which does not let you believe that your blood circulates in your body, and the same ignorance does not let you believe in the existence of Allah, Who cannot be seen."

Then the Imam asked Abu Shakir whether he has seen the tiny living beings, which Allah has created in his body.

Jafar as-Sadiq continued: "It is because of these small creatures and their wonderful work that you are kept alive. They are so small that you cannot see them. Since you are a slave of your senses, you do not know about their existence. If you increase your knowledge and decrease your ignorance, you will come to know that these small beings in your body are as large in number as the particles of sand in the desert. These small creatures are born in your body, multiply in your body, work in your body and die in your body. But you never see them, touch them, taste them or hear them in your life time."

"It is true that one who knows himself knows his Allah. If you had known yourself and had the knowledge of what is going on inside your body, you would not have said that you do not believe in Allah, without seeing Him."

Nice little story for the choir.
Thanks for sharing.
Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the thread topic.

 

[AxisMundi]

Nice little story for the choir.
Thanks for sharing.
Unfortunately it has nothing to do with the thread topic.

And is far from a convincing argument either.

A circular argument no better than jesus-on-toast.

 

[hyacinthus]

I know. It is a shi'a Tradition...there is no convincing scientific proof in the Qur'an so i share this bit of info...i am just proving your point.

The transmitted story is better than the Qur'an....

 

[hyacinthus]

And is far from a convincing argument either.

A circular argument no better than jesus-on-toast.

Your point is quite convincing were it not for the fact that this conversation took place some 1300 years ago.....

It made me think for some time....

 

[AxisMundi]

Your point is quite convincing were it not for the fact that this conversation took place some 1300 years ago.....

It made me think for some time....

Firstly quite advanced medical knowledge was available to Roman and Greek physicians over 2,000 years ago.

Secondly, the Atom was hypothesised i India nearly 4 thousand years ago.

Regurgitating known sciences is hardly convincing

 

[hyacinthus]

Correct me if i am wrong, but the cell theory was not a known science until the middle part of 17th century. it was not until the 19th century that Schwann and Schleiden constituted the theory. the cell theory has been called a master stroke of generalization. It has been said that it was one of the greatest discoveries of the 19th century, yet the theory was still confronted with skepticism and doubt coupled with insults and defamation during these German scientists' lifetime.

Leucipus and democritus did advance the germ of the Atomic theory in their speculative philosophical endeavor, based purely on deductive reasoning. you are right in saying any culture could think of the basic particle without resorting to supernatural or advanced technology. Anyway, Jafar didn't talk about atom in the posted conversation.

 

[AxisMundi]

Correct me if i am wrong, but the cell theory was not a known science until the middle part of 17th century. it was not until the 19th century that Schwann and Schleiden constituted the theory. the cell theory has been called a master stroke of generalization. It has been said that it was one of the greatest discoveries of the 19th century, yet the theory was still confronted with skepticism and doubt coupled with insults and defamation during these German scientists' lifetime.

Leucipus and democritus did advance the germ of the Atomic theory in their speculative philosophical endeavor, based purely on deductive reasoning. you are right in saying any culture could think of the basic particle without resorting to supernatural or advanced technology. Anyway, Jafar didn't talk about atom in the posted conversation.

"Small creatures" are not cells, sorry.

 

[McBell]

Correct me if i am wrong, but the cell theory was not a known science until the middle part of 17th century. it was not until the 19th century that Schwann and Schleiden constituted the theory. the cell theory has been called a master stroke of generalization. It has been said that it was one of the greatest discoveries of the 19th century, yet the theory was still confronted with skepticism and doubt coupled with insults and defamation during these German scientists' lifetime.

Leucipus and democritus did advance the germ of the Atomic theory in their speculative philosophical endeavor, based purely on deductive reasoning. you are right in saying any culture could think of the basic particle without resorting to supernatural or advanced technology. Anyway, Jafar didn't talk about atom in the posted conversation.

I see you are more subtle in your usage of the Forer Effect than the OP.
But it is still using the Forer Effect to make it mean what you want it to mean.

 

[slavery]

jONMAN 122. This answer is for you:

G.B Airy in 1855 suggested that the crust of the earth could be likened to rafts of timber floating on water. Thick pieces of timber float higher above the water surface than thin pieces and similarly thick sections of the earth's crust will float on a liquid or plastic substratum of greater density. Airy was suggesting that mountains have a deep root of lower density rock which the plains lack. Four years after Airy published his work, J.H Pratt offered an alternative hypothesis... By this hypothesis rock columns below mountains must have a lower density, because of their greater length, than shorter rock columns beneath plains. Both Airy and Pratt's hypothesis imply that surface irregularities are balanced by differences in density of rocks below the major features (mountains and plains) of the crust. This state of BALANCE is described as the concept of ISOSTASY.(M. J. Selby, Earth's Changing Surface (Oxford: Clarendon Press: 1985),p 32 )

 

[hyacinthus]

"Small creatures" are not cells, sorry.

Ok. I could be wrong in my assumption. The "small creatures" term is subject to many interpretations. Only Jafar knew what he really meant. But let's take a look at his definitions of the so-called "small creatures." In that way we could somehow limit our assumptions to as few plausible "small creatures" as possible.

1. It is because of these small creatures and their wonderful work that you are kept alive. They are so small that you cannot see them.

Since Jafar asserted that the creatures couldn't be seen , we can dismiss the tapeworms, mosquitoes, ants, lizards, fleas, flies and any other small creatures that can be observed with the unaided eyes. That leaves us with few microscopic organisms like germs, virus, amoeba (a unicellular creature), my candidate, the cells and few more.

He also stated that these "small creatures" and their wonderful work kept you alive. Hmmm....at this point we can get rid of the harmful bacterias, virus (this is not even considered living creature) and amoeba.

So the remaining survivors are the friendly bacterias and the cells.

2.Jafar further stated that, "You will come to know that these small beings in your body are as large in number as the particles of sand in the desert.

The friendly bacterias are mainly located in the gut. Their number is relatively small compared to the number of our cells...not close enough to match the number of sand in the desert. My candidate is winning..hehe

3.These small creatures are born in your body, multiply in your body, work in your body and die in your body. But you never see them, touch them, taste them or hear them in your life time."

These seemingly hypothetical creatures Jafar postulated fit the description of the cells. The cells are born in your body, multiply in your body, work in your body and eventually die. Take the red blood cells, they are produced in the bone marrow and function as transporter of oxygen to the body tissues..to keep you alive. They live for about 120 days before they die.

Jafar was brave enough to have the conviction that seemingly imaginary creatures that nobody had seen kept us alive and was bolder in asserting that they were born, work, and die in our body. This struck me as unbelievable and amazing. The Forer thing can't be applied in this case; You yourself know why.

Anyway, i am still studying this man and his weird statements (and not less amazing) such as extraterrestrial civilizations far more advanced than ours, the existence of different forms of humans before our species of humans and many more weird stuffs that bewildered me. I am not imposing anything here and am far from defending Islam or any other religion...this jafar guy just interests me that's all...

There is nothing in the universe, which is not in motion. Rest or motionlessness is meaningless. We are not at rest even when we are sleeping. We are in motion because the earth is in motion. Besides, we have a motion inside our own bodies."

Jafar Sadiq

 

[jonman122]

jONMAN 122. This answer is for you:

G.B Airy in 1855 suggested that the crust of the earth could be likened to rafts of timber floating on water. Thick pieces of timber float higher above the water surface than thin pieces and similarly thick sections of the earth's crust will float on a liquid or plastic substratum of greater density. Airy was suggesting that mountains have a deep root of lower density rock which the plains lack. Four years after Airy published his work, J.H Pratt offered an alternative hypothesis... By this hypothesis rock columns below mountains must have a lower density, because of their greater length, than shorter rock columns beneath plains. Both Airy and Pratt's hypothesis imply that surface irregularities are balanced by differences in density of rocks below the major features (mountains and plains) of the crust. This state of BALANCE is described as the concept of ISOSTASY.(M. J. Selby, Earth's Changing Surface (Oxford: Clarendon Press: 1985),p 32 )

i don't get what this has to do with anything at all...

 

[DeitySlayer]

Ok. I could be wrong in my assumption. The "small creatures" term is subject to many interpretations. Only Jafar knew what he really meant. But let's take a look at his definitions of the so-called "small creatures." In that way we could somehow limit our assumptions to as few plausible "small creatures" as possible.

1. It is because of these small creatures and their wonderful work that you are kept alive. They are so small that you cannot see them.

Since Jafar asserted that the creatures couldn't be seen , we can dismiss the tapeworms, mosquitoes, ants, lizards, fleas, flies and any other small creatures that can be observed with the unaided eyes. That leaves us with few microscopic organisms like germs, virus, amoeba (a unicellular creature), my candidate, the cells and few more.

He also stated that these "small creatures" and their wonderful work kept you alive. Hmmm....at this point we can get rid of the harmful bacterias, virus (this is not even considered living creature) and amoeba.

So the remaining survivors are the friendly bacterias and the cells.

2.Jafar further stated that, "You will come to know that these small beings in your body are as large in number as the particles of sand in the desert.

The friendly bacterias are mainly located in the gut. Their number is relatively small compared to the number of our cells...not close enough to match the number of sand in the desert. My candidate is winning..hehe

3.These small creatures are born in your body, multiply in your body, work in your body and die in your body. But you never see them, touch them, taste them or hear them in your life time."

These seemingly hypothetical creatures Jafar postulated fit the description of the cells. The cells are born in your body, multiply in your body, work in your body and eventually die. Take the red blood cells, they are produced in the bone marrow and function as transporter of oxygen to the body tissues..to keep you alive. They live for about 120 days before they die.

Jafar was brave enough to have the conviction that seemingly imaginary creatures that nobody had seen kept us alive and was bolder in asserting that they were born, work, and die in our body. This struck me as unbelievable and amazing. The Forer thing can't be applied in this case; You yourself know why.

Anyway, i am still studying this man and his weird statements (and not less amazing) such as extraterrestrial civilizations far more advanced than ours, the existence of different forms of humans before our species of humans and many more weird stuffs that bewildered me. I am not imposing anything here and am far from defending Islam or any other religion...this jafar guy just interests me that's all...

In the 6th century BCE, the Jain scriptures written by Mahavira stated the existence of unseeable microscopic creatures called 'nigodas'. 1,200 years BEFORE the Qur'an.

In the 1st century BC, the Roman scholar Marcus Terentius Varro went one better, saying the following in his treatsy 'On Agriculture':

"…and because there are bred certain minute creatures which cannot be seen by the eyes, which float in the air and enter the body through the mouth and nose and there cause serious diseases"

Which not only indicates the existence of micro-organisms, but also rudimentary germ theory.

 

[McBell]

i don't get what this has to do with anything at all...

Um...
Blatant Diversion Tactic?

 

[jonman122]

Um...
Blatant Diversion Tactic?

it made me giggle that an article from 1855 is somehow an answer for me, it answers absolutely nothing bahaha but it was pretty funny.

 

[hyacinthus]

In the 6th century BCE, the Jain scriptures written by Mahavira stated the existence of unseeable microscopic creatures called 'nigodas'. 1,200 years BEFORE the Qur'an.

In the 1st century BC, the Roman scholar Marcus Terentius Varro went one better, saying the following in his treatsy 'On Agriculture':

"…and because there are bred certain minute creatures which cannot be seen by the eyes, which float in the air and enter the body through the mouth and nose and there cause serious diseases"

Which not only indicates the existence of micro-organisms, but also rudimentary germ theory.

Thanks for the wonderful info, my friend.

Your reply is in line with my stance; that Jafar came up with the theory through keen observation rather than divine intervention is the view that I would rather uphold for the time being. The Arabs preserved and studied religiously Hellenistic, Greek knowledge accumulated by the ancient Greeks, while most of the Europeans were in slumber during the dark age. It stands to reason that Jafar who had considerable access to most of the knowledge gathered from India, Rome and Greece, might have come to the conclusion from his study of the them. It is highly probable that he was refering to the human cells or the red blood cells rather than sickness- causing germs. But in order to reach the conclusion, i suspect he must have some kind of instruments similar to a microscope. After all, He did mentioned building instruments that could magnify minute things and distant objects. He mentioned the existence of the seventh planet long before it's accidental discovery in 1781, if i am not mistaken ( i only depend on my memory right now). perhaps Hans Lippershey was not the first to invent the telescope, and perhaps Galileo was not the first to use it to observe the sky. Too bad much of the muslim accumulated knowledge was lost when the mongols ransacked the Muslim world in 1258 and burned their libraries.

I don't think it would have been possible for him to describe the living beings ( the red blood cells i suspect) within us without the aid of a microscope. since it was the only way i could imagine anyone could have done to observe the cells. Otherwise we had to consider the theory that extraterrestrial beings or A god told him ( which is the last thing any atheist would consider). He was talking about the living beings (i use the term "being" instead of creatures because a weird fellow seems to have a problem with the term jafar used ) produced inside us rather than the unfriendly germs the roman and Indian scholars described. We could live without the friendly germs for the next five minutes, but it takes cells like red blood cells to keep us alive.

So much for jafar. I don't think there is any convincing scientific proof in the qur'an if we go with the original translation of Yusuf Ali and picktall .and i don't think it's necessary for any muslim to reconcile his belief with science; both belong in different domains. science deals with the natural world while religion has its place in the domain of ethics and morality.

 

[AxisMundi]

Your precious example is from an English translation of an Arab translation of a French thesis which even admits the intellectual dishonesty of the French researchers in the introduction of the book.

There simply is nothing stating that Jafar came up with anything.

 

[DeitySlayer]

But in order to reach the conclusion, i suspect he must have some kind of instruments similar to a microscope.

I don't think it would have been possible for him to describe the living beings ( the red blood cells i suspect) within us without the aid of a microscope. since it was the only way i could imagine anyone could have done to observe the cells.

Do you therefore also postulate that the Jains in 2,300 BCE and Varro in the 1st century also had microsopes? The point I make is that it is perfectly possible to guess things correctly without actual direct observation. The thing is, millions of ancient peoples were speculating on the natural world. It is probable and likely that a few of them hit on correct explanations through sheer fluke.

 

[hyacinthus]

Do you therefore also postulate that the Jains in 2,300 BCE and Varro in the 1st century also had microsopes? The point I make is that it is perfectly possible to guess things correctly without actual direct observation. The thing is, millions of ancient peoples were speculating on the natural world. It is probable and likely that a few of them hit on correct explanations through sheer fluke.

Provided you point out they also stated about the creatures being born, work and die in your body, and whose number is comparable to that of sand in the desert,and they are vital to keep us alive, then I would have to offer a rational explanation for that other than fluke. William Harvey didn't know about the capillaries that connect the arteries and veins because of the lack of a microscope. How much more when it comes to the cells.

The Germ Theory of Disease was of ancient origin. Any observant culture who attempted to find the material causes behind any diseases would have inevitably come to the logical conclusion that invisible entities are behind them. But we are talking about the invisible germs that happen to have observable effects on our health. You can't see the microscopic germs but any man could feel, sense and observe it's effects...that's what distinguish the germs from jafar's " small beings inside the body". You can't observe,sense or even feel the "small beings inside you". That makes me wonder how jafar came up with such description on the "small beings."

And nope. I don't believe he had a microscope or telescope, since he himself didn't claim to have such instruments. I only offered the possible explanation for his Theory other than divine or alien's intervention. Jafar claimed that his knowledge came from God himself. I don't think any atheist would buy that.

 

[hyacinthus]

Your precious example is from an English translation of an Arab translation of a French thesis which even admits the intellectual dishonesty of the French researchers in the introduction of the book.

There simply is nothing stating that Jafar came up with anything.

It's good to know that you did your research on jafar. You are now arguing with knowledge. it's better that way. I will go wherever the argument leads me. I'm just enjoying this argument with you, guys.

I will give you another interesting statement by Jafar.


There is a tradition quoted from Imam Sadiq (A) :

"Perhaps you think God has not created a humanity other than you. No! I swear to God that He has created thousands upon thousands of mankinds and you are the last among them."

"Like this world there are 70,000 other planets with each of their peoples believing they are alone in the universe."

"I cannot say that there are human beings in other worlds, but I can say that there are living beings, whom we cannot see because of the great distance between us."

-Bihar al Anwar, vol 14, p 79



"Before this Adam, there were a thousand thousand Adams." By Imam Jafar Sadiq

-Bihar Al Anwar, Volume 2, Part 2

 

[AxisMundi]

It's good to know that you did your research on jafar. You are now arguing with knowledge. it's better that way. I will go wherever the argument leads me. I'm just enjoying this argument with you, guys.

I will give you another interesting statement by Jafar.


There is a tradition quoted from Imam Sadiq (A) :

"Perhaps you think God has not created a humanity other than you. No! I swear to God that He has created thousands upon thousands of mankinds and you are the last among them."

"Like this world there are 70,000 other planets with each of their peoples believing they are alone in the universe."

"I cannot say that there are human beings in other worlds, but I can say that there are living beings, whom we cannot see because of the great distance between us."

-Bihar al Anwar, vol 14, p 79



"Before this Adam, there were a thousand thousand Adams." By Imam Jafar Sadiq

-Bihar Al Anwar, Volume 2, Part 2

You can give me all the quotes you wish, but quotes from a modern text hardly provide proof of anything.

It is no better than "adjusting" quaran quotes to match modern knowledge.