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Things you don't like about Materialism

What are you're thoughts and feelings on materialism?

  • positive

    Votes: 11 23.9%
  • negative

    Votes: 16 34.8%
  • mixed/indifferent

    Votes: 18 39.1%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • Total voters
    46

Koldo

Outstanding Member
What you stated is nothing close to materialism, which is a monistic metaphysical thesis that posits the existence of matter.

Apparently you recognize that the actual definition of materialism is unjustifiable. Just as I said, the findings and theories of modern science prove the thesis of materialism utterly false.

If you come up with any arguments to the contrary, let me know.

You mentioned "supernatural causation" for some reason. What was that reason?

What causes "things to behave"?

I asked you to name all the "physical laws" you know of. At best, you named one (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle--which some people would dispute is a law of nature.. You haven't name any laws that account for your behavior of writing your post with the fake definition of materialism. Can you name any such laws?

Honestly, I don't see the point of a debate over semantics. You understand materialism as representing a very narrow view. Others do not.

Anyway, what you are asking for requires knowledge about the 'bridge laws'. Even people who believe that they do exist, don't say that they know them all. And even then, there are those that don't care about them because they believe the world can't be properly reduced to physics laws either way even if everything exists as a consequence of them.

But more importantly, ontological views are not about looking at the world and saying : It can only be thus.
It is about how we understand the world. It's not about proof. It is about how we interpret reality.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Honestly, I don't see the point of a debate over semantics.
So, since you see see no "point of a debate over semantics," I take it you have no problem with using the definition of "materialism" that is found in all the dictionaries I quoted and in the OP. And I take you understand that the findings and theories of modern physics prove that thesis to be false.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
So, since you see see no "point of a debate over semantics," I take it you have no problem with using the definition of "materialism" that is found in all the dictionaries I quoted and in the OP. And I take you understand that the findings and theories of modern physics prove that thesis to be false.

I don't have any problems with how you use the term, but wanting others to use it in the same way won't get you anywhere.
I suggest reading the following quote:

"Physicalism is sometimes known as ‘materialism’. Indeed, on one strand to contemporary usage, the terms ‘physicalism’ and ‘materialism’ are interchangeable. But the two terms have very different histories. The word ‘materialism’ is very old, but the word ‘physicalism’ was introduced into philosophy only in the 1930s by Otto Neurath (1931) and Rudolf Carnap (1959/1932), both of whom were key members of the Vienna Circle, a group of philosophers, scientists and mathematicians active in Vienna prior to World War II. It is not clear that Neurath and Carnap understood physicalism in the same way, but one thesis often attributed to them (e.g. in Hempel 1949) is the linguistic thesis that every statement is synonymous with (i.e. is equivalent in meaning with) some physical statement. But materialism as traditionally construed is not a linguistic thesis at all; rather it is a metaphysical thesis in the sense that it tells us about the nature of the world. At least for the positivists, therefore, there was a clear reason for distinguishing physicalism (a linguistic thesis) from materialism (a metaphysical thesis). Moreover, this reason was compounded by the fact that, according to official positivist doctrine, metaphysics is nonsense. Since the 1930s, however, the positivist philosophy that under-girded this distinction has for the most part been rejected—for example, physicalism is not a linguistic thesis for contemporary philosophers—and this is one reason why the words ‘materialism’ and ‘physicalism’ are now often interpreted as interchangeable.

Some philosophers suggest that ‘physicalism’ is distinct from ‘materialism’ for a reason quite unrelated to the one emphasized by Neurath and Carnap. As the name suggests, materialists historically held that everything was matter — where matter was conceived as “an inert, senseless substance, in which extension, figure, and motion do actually subsist” (Berkeley, Principles of Human Knowledge, par. 9). But physics itself has shown that not everything is matter in this sense; for example, forces such as gravity are physical but it is not clear that they are material in the traditional sense (Lange 1865, Dijksterhuis 1961, Yolton 1983). So it is tempting to use ‘physicalism’ to distance oneself from what seems a historically important but no longer scientifically relevant thesis of materialism, and related to this, to emphasize a connection to physics and the physical sciences. However, while physicalism is certainly unusual among metaphysical doctrines in being associated with a commitment both to the sciences and to a particular branch of science, namely physics, it is not clear that this is a good reason for calling it ‘physicalism’ rather than ‘materialism.’ For one thing, many contemporary physicalists do in fact use the word ‘materialism’ to describe their doctrine (e.g. Smart 1963). Moreover, while ‘physicalism’ is no doubt related to ‘physics’ it is also related to ‘physical object’ and this in turn is very closely connected with ‘material object’, and via that, with ‘matter.’

In this entry, I will adopt the policy of using both terms interchangeably, though I will typically refer to the thesis we will discuss as ‘physicalism’. It is important to note, though, that physicalism (i.e. materialism) is associated with a number of other metaphysical and methodological doctrines. We will return to some of these when we discuss Physicalism and the Physicalist World-picture."

- Physicalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
What you stated is nothing close to materialism, which is a monistic metaphysical thesis that posits the existence of matter.

Apparently you recognize that the actual definition of materialism is unjustifiable. Just as I said, the findings and theories of modern science prove the thesis of materialism utterly false.

If you come up with any arguments to the contrary, let me know.

You mentioned "supernatural causation" for some reason. What was that reason?

What causes "things to behave"?

I asked you to name all the "physical laws" you know of. At best, you named one (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle--which some people would dispute is a law of nature.. You haven't name any laws that account for your behavior of writing your post with the fake definition of materialism. Can you name any such laws?

which is a monistic metaphysical thesis that posits the existence of matter

Which is irrelevant because I already told you its a redefinition. And it might still be monistic if its only one physical law, E.G. it turns out there's a theory of everything.

Apparently you recognize that the actual definition of materialism is unjustifiable. Just as I said, the findings and theories of modern science prove the thesis of materialism utterly false.

Hence the redefinition to make it more consistent with modern physics. Words change their definitions all the time and its perfectly acceptable to redefine something if we find that the definition provided is inconsistent with reality.

You mentioned "supernatural causation" for some reason. What was that reason?

The reason was to ground materialism with philosophical naturalism. The definition I created is in the spirit of the original definition, by being consistent with the notion that the natural world is all there is. It was to highlight that everything corresponds to physical law(s) just as how the original definition implies that everything corresponds to matter and its movements.

I asked you to name all the "physical laws" you know of. At best, you named one (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle--which some people would dispute is a law of nature.. You haven't name any laws that account for your behavior of writing your post with the fake definition of materialism. Can you name any such laws?

No physicist is disputing the heisenberg uncertainty law unless you're requiring that a law asserts absolute certainty, which I don't think it has to.

You haven't name any laws that account for your behavior of writing your post with the fake definition of materialism.

Why would I? Its a red herring. In theory I could give you several physical laws regarding the interactions of particles in an electric fields that might eventually lead to me typing such a post. But if I wasn't able to provide the physical laws you ask for, that wouldn't somehow mean that my redefinition is illogical or that any of my arguments were wrong in any ways. I certainly couldn't give you a full mathematical description of how it occurred, and even if I were able to you wouldn't accept it because you almost certainly would not understand it.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I thought that a recap and a summary was in order.

The experience may not be the reality. It is a brain state. If we can determine from brain scans that you are experiencing that non-duality, then we have all that is required..

That is true. And brain is an experience of waking state of consciousness. No?

I don't see a fundamental issue here. There is a difference between the measurement of a supernova and a supernova. ...

So, there. The materialistic paradigm leads to the following.

Although, experiences may not be reality but our experiences with 'brain states' etc. is really real. We know that better than others who do not agree to the materialistic paradigm. Although our intelligence is born out of brain states, yet we have the competence to discern the truth of the so-called brain states -- the very source of our intelligence.
.....


Well. On the other hand.....
 
Last edited:

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't have any problems with how you use the term, but wanting others to use it in the same way won't get you anywhere.
I have merely used the definition of "materialism" found in dictionaries. Anyone who wants to make up a new airy-fairy meaning for the word needs to be able to logically justify it somehow.

I suggest reading the following quote:

"Physicalism is sometimes known as ‘materialism’. Indeed, on one strand to contemporary usage, the terms ‘physicalism’ and ‘materialism’ are interchangeable. But the two terms have very different histories. The word ‘materialism’ is very old, but the word ‘physicalism’ was introduced into philosophy only in the 1930s by Otto Neurath (1931) and Rudolf Carnap (1959/1932), both of whom were key members of the Vienna Circle, a group of philosophers, scientists and mathematicians active in Vienna prior to World War II. It is not clear that Neurath and Carnap understood physicalism in the same way, but one thesis often attributed to them (e.g. in Hempel 1949) is the linguistic thesis that every statement is synonymous with (i.e. is equivalent in meaning with) some physical statement. But materialism as traditionally construed is not a linguistic thesis at all; rather it is a metaphysical thesis in the sense that it tells us about the nature of the world. At least for the positivists, therefore, there was a clear reason for distinguishing physicalism (a linguistic thesis) from materialism (a metaphysical thesis). Moreover, this reason was compounded by the fact that, according to official positivist doctrine, metaphysics is nonsense. Since the 1930s, however, the positivist philosophy that under-girded this distinction has for the most part been rejected—for example, physicalism is not a linguistic thesis for contemporary philosophers—and this is one reason why the words ‘materialism’ and ‘physicalism’ are now often interpreted as interchangeable.

Some philosophers suggest that ‘physicalism’ is distinct from ‘materialism’ for a reason quite unrelated to the one emphasized by Neurath and Carnap. As the name suggests, materialists historically held that everything was matter — where matter was conceived as “an inert, senseless substance, in which extension, figure, and motion do actually subsist” (Berkeley, Principles of Human Knowledge, par. 9). But physics itself has shown that not everything is matter in this sense; for example, forces such as gravity are physical but it is not clear that they are material in the traditional sense (Lange 1865, Dijksterhuis 1961, Yolton 1983). So it is tempting to use ‘physicalism’ to distance oneself from what seems a historically important but no longer scientifically relevant thesis of materialism, and related to this, to emphasize a connection to physics and the physical sciences. However, while physicalism is certainly unusual among metaphysical doctrines in being associated with a commitment both to the sciences and to a particular branch of science, namely physics, it is not clear that this is a good reason for calling it ‘physicalism’ rather than ‘materialism.’ For one thing, many contemporary physicalists do in fact use the word ‘materialism’ to describe their doctrine (e.g. Smart 1963). Moreover, while ‘physicalism’ is no doubt related to ‘physics’ it is also related to ‘physical object’ and this in turn is very closely connected with ‘material object’, and via that, with ‘matter.’

In this entry, I will adopt the policy of using both terms interchangeably, though I will typically refer to the thesis we will discuss as ‘physicalism’. It is important to note, though, that physicalism (i.e. materialism) is associated with a number of other metaphysical and methodological doctrines. We will return to some of these when we discuss Physicalism and the Physicalist World-picture."

- Physicalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
So you agree that the thesis defined below as "materialism" has been shown to be false by the findings and theories of modern physcis:

materialism | Definition of materialism in English by Oxford Dictionaries

Philosophy
The theory or belief that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.​


the definition of materialism

the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.​


Definition of MATERIALISM

1a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter (see[1] matter 2)​

?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Which is irrelevant because I already told you its a redefinition.
As I just noted to Koldo (before reading your post), anyone who is making up a new airy-fairy definition of the word "materialism" need to be able to logically justify it somehow. What rational reason is there to use a definintion of "materialism" (or any other word) that isn't found in any dictionary?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I have merely used the definition of "materialism" found in dictionaries. Anyone who wants to make up a new airy-fairy meaning for the word needs to be able to logically justify it somehow.

So you agree that the thesis defined below as "materialism" has been shown to be false by the findings and theories of modern physcis:

materialism | Definition of materialism in English by Oxford Dictionaries

Philosophy
The theory or belief that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.​


the definition of materialism

the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.​


Definition of MATERIALISM

1a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter (see[1] matter 2)​

?

If you define matter as 'having mass and volume', then yes.

I consider that to be a silly definiition of 'matter' given what we know today.

For example, a Higg's boson has mass, but does not take up volume (because it is a boson, not a fermion).

We do not know, at present, whether all neutrino types have mass (if so, the mass is very, very small), but they would 'take up volume' since they are fermions and the Pauli exclusion principle would hold for them.

The ultimate problem with this definition of 'matter' is that we know understand that 'taking up volume' is the result of being a fermion (whether or not the particle has mass), but there are a LOT of particles that have mass and are bosons.

So, once again, if your definition of 'materialism' excludes light, it simply isn't a workable one for what we know today.

The basic thesis that there is no supernatural remains, though. The basic idea that metaphysics is mostly, if not entirely, bunk still remains.

So, given your definition of matter, which I think is a faulty one, materialism is wrong. but the problem is in the definition, not the concept itself.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I thought that a recap and a summary was in order.

So, there. The materialistic paradigm leads to the following.

Although, experiences may not be reality but our experiences with 'brain states' etc. is really real. We know that better than others who do not agree to the materialistic paradigm. Although our intelligence is born out of brain states, yet we have the competence to discern the truth of the so-called brain states -- the very source of our intelligence.
.....


Well. On the other hand.....

Think about computers as an analogy. A running program is a 'computer state'. That program may or may not be processing data that is relevant to the real world. But the program is still a 'real computer state'.

In the same way, consciousness can be thought of as a program running in the brain. It is a 'brain state'. But it is possible for an experience to not correspond to reality. It is still a 'real brain state' even if the state itself doesn't reflect reality. So, for example, an optical illusion is a real experience. It is even a repeatable experience. But it does not reflect the reality of the situation.

Because our brains evolved to process information about the world we live in, it gives mostly reliable information for things at the human level of existence: things large enough to be seen, small enough to manipulate, slow enough to watch move, etc. It is not perfectly reliable even then (witness illusions again), but it is good enough to allow the basic scientific method to start and proceed.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
As I just noted to Koldo (before reading your post), anyone who is making up a new airy-fairy definition of the word "materialism" need to be able to logically justify it somehow. What rational reason is there to use a definintion of "materialism" (or any other word) that isn't found in any dictionary?
I already told you. The current definition of the word materialism is not consistent with modern physics. A definition that is consistent with modern physics and relies on philosophical naturalism is needed.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I have merely used the definition of "materialism" found in dictionaries. Anyone who wants to make up a new airy-fairy meaning for the word needs to be able to logically justify it somehow.

It's not a 'new airy-fairy meaning for the word'.

"Materialism, also called physicalism, in philosophy, the view that all facts (including facts about the human mind and will and the course of human history) are causally dependent upon physical processes, or even reducible to them." - materialism | philosophy

"Materialism is just the epistemological view that the methods of physics can provide us with a complete account of how things are." - What is Materialism? | Issue 42 | Philosophy Now

"Materialism – which, for almost all purposes, is the same as physicalism – is the theory that everything that exists is material." -Materialism in the philosophy of mind - Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy

"The biggest challenge materialists have faced is to define what matter is. Modern philosophical materialists extend the definition of matter to include invisible scientific postulates such as energy, forces, and the curvature of space, as well as dark matter and dark energy, which exist in mathematical equations but are scientifically undetectable. " - http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Materialism

"1. Philosophy The doctrine that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind,and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena." - https://www.thefreedictionary.com/materialism

"The materialist or physicalist says that the only things there are are all material or physical things. Materialism was originally the view that everything is made of matter. (That's why it's called "materialism.") Nowadays, though, philosophers have broadened the meaning of this term, so that you can still be a materialist even if you believe in gravitational fields, curves in space-time, and other things which are clearly not matter. Basically, the materialist believes in whatever our best physics tells us about." - http://www.jimpryor.net/teaching/courses/intro/notes/dualism.html

You just didn't the memo.

So you agree that the thesis defined below as "materialism" has been shown to be false by the findings and theories of modern physcis:

materialism | Definition of materialism in English by Oxford Dictionaries

Philosophy
The theory or belief that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.​


the definition of materialism

the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.​


Definition of MATERIALISM

1a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter (see[1] matter 2)​

?

It depends on how you interpret those words. But considering how you have shown to interpret them, yes.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you define matter as 'having mass and volume', then yes.

I consider that to be a silly definiition of 'matter' given what we know today.
What is a rational reason for claiming that "matter" is something other than what most every dictionary says it is--objects that have mass and volume?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's not a 'new airy-fairy meaning for the word'.

"Materialism, also called physicalism, in philosophy, the view that all facts (including facts about the human mind and will and the course of human history) are causally dependent upon physical processes, or even reducible to them." - materialism | philosophy
Obviously that isn't the definition that @serp777 proposed. Neither is any of the other definitions you quoted. Several of the definitions you quoted have even eliminated materialism as a metaphysical thesis.

How about if someone defines "idealism" this way: "Idealism is the metaphysical thesis that describes emprical reality entirely consistently with quantum mechanics." ? Do you have a problem with moving the goal posts for idealism in that way?

What definition of materialism that you quoted are you able to argue is a thesis that is true? State it and argue it.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What is a rational reason for claiming that "matter" is something other than what most every dictionary says it is--objects that have mass and volume?

I gave the reason above. So did someone else, who even gave references to modern philosophical terminology.

The basic reason, again, is that the crucial distinction was between materialism and those who allow for some sort of spirit world. Added to that is the fact that mass and volume are clearly NOT getting to the basic point of physicalism. That is why modern materialists allow for quantum particles whether they be bosons or fermions as well as particles that are massless.

The basic question is whether the physical is all there is. The specific definition of matter was attempting to clarify that position.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Obviously that isn't the definition that @serp777 proposed. Neither is any of the other definitions you quoted. Several of the definitions you quoted have even eliminated materialism as a metaphysical thesis.

Only your restricted definition of the term.

How about if someone defines "idealism" this way: "Idealism is the metaphysical thesis that describes emprical reality entirely consistently with quantum mechanics." ? Do you have a problem with moving the goal posts for idealism in that way?

Yes, of course. The reason I would have a problem is that it goes against the basic idea of idealism that physical processes are not the sum of what exists.

But it *is* a core concept of materialism that physical processes are all that exist. The shift from 'has mass and volume' is rather minimal from that viewpoint.

The *real* question is whether mind and consciousness is ultimately a physical process or not. A materialist would say they are. A non-materialist would say they are not.

What definition of materialism that you quoted are you able to argue is a thesis that is true? State it and argue it.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I gave the reason above. So did someone else, who even gave references to modern philosophical terminology.

The basic reason, again, is that the crucial distinction was between materialism and those who allow for some sort of spirit world.
There has always been a distinction between the thesis that only objects that have mass and volume exist,and the thesis that objects that do not have mass or volume also exist. That distinction obviously doesn't create a rational reason for now claiming that "matter" is something other than objects that have mass and volume.

Added to that is the fact that mass and volume are clearly NOT getting to the basic point of physicalism.
The fact that a philosopher articulated a metaphysical thesis that he called "physicalism" is also not a rational reason to claim that matter is something other than objects that have mass and volume. The only reason that any philosopher proposed a thesis called "physicalism" is because he understand that the findings and theories of modern physics show materialism to be false.

The basic question is whether the physical is all there is.
You are only giving reasons to conclude that materialism is false, not reasons that the definition of materialism should be changed.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, of course. The reason I would have a problem is that it goes against the basic idea of idealism that physical processes are not the sum of what exists.
The Schrodinger equation doesn't identify anything as "physical".

In defining "idealism" as "the metaphysical thesis that describes empirical reality entirely consistently with quantum mechanics," I am doing the same thing you are in claiming that "materialism" doesn't mean that objects that have mass and volume are all that exist.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Think about computers as an analogy. A running program is a 'computer state'. That program may or may not be processing data that is relevant to the real world. But the program is still a 'real computer state'.

In the same way, consciousness can be thought of as a program running in the brain. It is a 'brain state'. But it is possible for an experience to not correspond to reality. It is still a 'real brain state' even if the state itself doesn't reflect reality. So, for example, an optical illusion is a real experience. It is even a repeatable experience. But it does not reflect the reality of the situation.

Because our brains evolved to process information about the world we live in, it gives mostly reliable information for things at the human level of existence: things large enough to be seen, small enough to manipulate, slow enough to watch move, etc. It is not perfectly reliable even then (witness illusions again), but it is good enough to allow the basic scientific method to start and proceed.


Thank you. I have been exposed to this concept innumerable times in past by Mr. PolyHedral.

I need you to explain to me these.

1. There is an awareness "This is program state' n', which is different from program state 'n-1' ...... and so forth. Then who am I that keeps knowing these program states?"

2. n this model, death is probably equal to degradation of hardware and its failure to runtime software?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Obviously that isn't the definition that @serp777 proposed. Neither is any of the other definitions you quoted. Several of the definitions you quoted have even eliminated materialism as a metaphysical thesis.

How about if someone defines "idealism" this way: "Idealism is the metaphysical thesis that describes emprical reality entirely consistently with quantum mechanics." ? Do you have a problem with moving the goal posts for idealism in that way?

What definition of materialism that you quoted are you able to argue is a thesis that is true? State it and argue it.

What you don't seem to understand is that words acquire new meanings as time goes by. You seem to be stuck in time with your dictionary definitions. The word 'materialism' doesn't represent one single worldview. It is an umbrella term. It represents things that even contradict each other at certain points.

What connect them is the assumption that everything that can be said to exist is a consequence of physical interactions. And the strongest argument in favor of this view is how successful the natural sciences have been so far.
 
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