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This is not Anti-Semetism- Why Zionism and the state of Israel are WRONG

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
You can't throw the anti-semite card at me for this, I am a Jew myself, I have Jewish parents. According to Judaism, Jews have no right to have a state until the messiah comes and makes it holy. See: www.nkusa.org (Nuterei Karta- Jews against Zionism). Even if you do believe Israel has the right to exist, you cannot say that what the Israeli state does to the Palestinian people is right, or in line with Jewish ethics. Let's face it, Jewish ethics don't allow for treating people like the Israeli government treats Gazans. The majority of Jews in Israel are secular Jews, with no real sense of what it means to be Jewish, I know because some in my family still practice Judaism. The secular Jews in Israel just keep moving to Israel because Israel gives them land and government support, but is it right?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
My guess is the way Israel treats the Palestinians could very well fail because the Jewish people themselves will recognize it as incompatible with their values.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Most Jews in Israel don't know it's out of line with Jewish ethics, because they're secular. They could careless. :(
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Exactly father heathen, and that's another thing Zionism is doing, it's making people think Zionism and Jewry are the same thing. Like you can't be a good Jew if you're not a Zionist, and it's starting to effect how non-Jews see Jewish people. It is causing many Muslims to dislike or even hate Jewish people.
 

Octavia156

OTO/EGC
I think it is wrong too HM.

But then, I think Abraham was wrong in the first place!

A Sumarian man from Mesopatamia is supposedly promised a piece of land by one of his civilisations many gods, a piece of land where there is no evidence that he or his descendents ever actually ruled.

I apologise for my offensive comments, but I am not a fan of Abraham.

How it can be justified that 3000yrs after Abraham apparently blacked-out and thought a god wanted to give him some land hundreds of miles away, that it should be handed over to a group of people, most of whom are not even from that part of the world in the first place.

I can't see how this situation will ever be resolved. What evidence is there to suggest they have any claim to the land at all?

Abraham had no claim to the land! Except for his own hallucination! The only people who have a claim to land is the people who live there.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Sunstone I'm secular myself, as far as Judaism is concerned. To me one of the most damaging things about Zionism is how it's starting to become part of the Jewish identity, like you are a self-hating Jew if you're not a Zionist. It's starting to merge with Jewish identity in a very bad way, and it doesn't matter to the Zionist what the non-Zionist Jew feels, even though we feel what Israel does to the Palestinian people is wrong.
 

DeitySlayer

President of Chindia
I believe that Israel has no right to exist. Religious claims are a private matter, not a judicial basis to displace the inhabitants of a huge tract of land and have them subjugated. The Aztec Gods promised the Mexica the blood of neighbouring tribes. Does this justify Mexico in annexing land from the USA? No. So why the heck would the Judeo-Christian's promise to Abraham justify Jewish occupation of Palestine?
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I wouldn't put Judeo-Christian together, if it were me. I don't see them as mutually the same thing.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
First, I think it must be mentioned that pretty much any form of Judaism today is not the same as the Judaism of the Old Testament. There has been a massive change since the time that the Jews were first promised the land and now. God, according to the Old Testament, gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. A people who were just one more group out of Canaan that was trying to make a distinction between them and the rest of the tribes of Canaan. So to base any argument on whether or not the Jewish people are really practicing Judaism or anything is basically moot in this instance.

I believe that Israel has the right to exist though. I see no reason why they shouldn't have that chance.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
HM: you're mixing up too many different things here.

1. Religious Zionism/Anti-Zionism. Well, being something of a religious Zionist myself, obviously, I believe in the possibility that Jews establishing a Jewish State in our hereditary homeland is a step-- maybe even an important step-- on the long road to bringing the moshiach. But I certainly can understand how others might feel differently, and I respect their right not to think messianically about this. But in either case, I don't think it pays for anyone to not differentiate between criticizing the choices of the Israeli government and military versus criticizing the State of Israel as an extant entity. In the former case, I would be the first to say that anyone has the right to critique political and military decisions by a government-- whether I agree or not, has no bearing, it's just a matter of differing political opinions. But those who single out Israel to somehow argue that the entire state is somehow wrong for existing, and that the Jewish People has no right to have their own state in their own homeland...well, that's not something I would consider a mere difference of political opinion. And that is, at least in my opinion, an area where anti-Zionism can overlap with anti-Semitism, or with being a self-hating Jew. Which, I hasten to add, I am not at this time accusing anyone here of being.

But as for the Neturei Karta, first of all, they are a tiny fringe minority. Even if you also include the other anti-Zionist Jewish groups, like the Satmarers, and some of the other much smaller Haredi ultra-radicals, together they still only constitute a tiny percentage of the world's Jewry. They do not represent mainstream Jewish thought any more than al-Quaeda represents mainstream Islamic thought. In fact, the vast majority of practicing Jews support Israel, and see nothing at all mutually incompatible in Zionism and the Jewish tradition, even if they are not religious Zionists. The Nuturei Karta, by the way, are also sick: they are so committed to the notion that Israel must adhere to what they believe is God's plan, that those who don't do so become enemies in their eyes. They pray for the deaths of other Jews, just because the Neturei Karta disagree with them, and they (the NK) support terrorists and anti-Semites all over the world because of their shared hatred for the State of Israel: that is, IMO, deeply sick and wrong. And certainly proves nothing about what is or is not compatible with Jewish tradition, or what is or is not Jewish in the Zionist enterprise. Even the Satmarer Hasidim, who are also anti-Zionist, reject the Neturei Karta as traitors to their own people.

2. The rightness of criticizing Israeli choices in dealing with the Palestinians. Until and unless such criticisms begin to cross the line from political condemnation of a democratic government to knee-jerk vituperation of Jews, I see nothing inherently wrong in people criticizing the choices and decisions of Israel's government or military. I do so myself, frequently. The problem usually is that people don't know when to stop, and they often refuse to consider the implications of the situation. Many are simply ignorant of the history of Israel, or have no clear idea what the situation there has been like at its worst. Some have been indoctrinated by Palestinian propaganda. Some simply don't like the idea that people who are poor and suffering can also be responsible for terrorism and the inculcation of a culture of hatred. But responsible social and political criticism is not something that should be subject to intolerance.

3. Are Israel's actions in attempting to handle the Palestinian situation Jewishly appropriate? Yes and no. The tradition permits us a wide lattitude in our conduct during defensive wars. Frequently, Israel's actions are, as far as I can tell, much more cautious and much less vigorous than what the halakhah permits us in the course of defending Jewish cities in our own land. That said, I think Israel's government and military have made numerous mistakes and poor choices over the years, some catastrophically bad, and some compounded in ways that, if I were to judge by halakhic standards, the instigators would be in transgression of the laws of war. Sometimes those offenders have been punished, but I believe Israel should be quicker to punish the transgressors, their punishments more severe, and much more publicity about it all. Also, I think some of the choices made in terms of balancing defense with civilian collateral damage could be made a little better. And yet, I am also forced to admit that collateral damage would be far more reduced if Palestinian terrorists did not hide themselves amongst women and children.

4. The continued immigration of Jews to Israel. Israel is the Jewish State. Whether the majority of its citizens are secular or not is immaterial. And, by the way, let's remember that the term "secular," employed as a translation for the Hebrew "chiloni," represents not only what we in America or Europe might call "secular Jews" (that is, Jews who do not practice Judaism, may not know much about the Jewish tradition, and may not even believe in God), but also those Jews we would simply call "non-Orthodox Jews," who have varying levels of practice, knowledge, and theology, but who have no affiliations, simply because Israel generally lacks the non-Orthodox movements common to the Euro-American communities. In fact, barely a quarter of chiloni Jews (according to polls by the newspaper "Haaretz") have zero Jewish observance and don't believe in God; fewer than fifteen percent would consider themselves either non-Zionists or anti-Zionists. Given, then, that Israel is the Jewish State, and most Jews wish it to continue to be so, why would Jewish immigration be a problem for us?
 

DeitySlayer

President of Chindia
I believe that Israel has the right to exist though. I see no reason why they shouldn't have that chance.

Because the last time the Jews were actually in Palestine before the UN established Israel was about 2,000 years ago. They were out of the area for 2,000 years. The Arabs got Palestine, and had it for 2,000 years. That's longer than the USA has held North America, longer than Britain has held the Falklands, longer than Russia has held Siberia, longer than India and Pakistan have held the Punjab, longer than the European settlers colonized Australia. If the Arabs had to renounce their ownership of Palestine, then all of the above countries and powers must also do the same for their respective territories.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Because the last time the Jews were actually in Palestine before the UN established Israel was about 2,000 years ago. They were out of the area for 2,000 years. The Arabs got Palestine, and had it for 2,000 years. That's longer than the USA has held North America, longer than Britain has held the Falklands, longer than Russia has held Siberia, longer than India and Pakistan have held the Punjab, longer than the European settlers colonized Australia. If the Arabs had to renounce their ownership of Palestine, then all of the above countries and powers must also do the same for their respective territories.

you think there were no Jews in Palestine for 2000 years? why do you think that?

and when was there last an Arab administration of the region?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
When the members who take part in this thread know what it is they are debating, get back to me.
secularism, Abraham, religion, anti-Semitism, right to exit. which is it? sort your arguments out, then I'll consider whether to allocate of my time and take you seriously.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
I believe that Israel has no right to exist. Religious claims are a private matter, not a judicial basis to displace the inhabitants of a huge tract of land and have them subjugated. The Aztec Gods promised the Mexica the blood of neighbouring tribes. Does this justify Mexico in annexing land from the USA? No. So why the heck would the Judeo-Christian's promise to Abraham justify Jewish occupation of Palestine?

While I agree that a religious claim is bupkis, Israel does indeed have every right to exist, as granted by the United Nations.

That said, I do not see the country as a good ally, or even a needed ally, and I would like to see the US policies towards Israel changed drastically until that nation begins behaving itself.

They simply must retreat back behind their UN mandated borders, return land illegally taken since they were granted statehood, and start adhering to the 47 some odd UN Resolutions that they currently ignore. As a nuclear power, they must also sign on to the NPT and let UN inspectors in to see their weapons stockpile and manufacturing.

Until these conditions are met, it is my firmest opinion that no support, including the weapons and civilian monetary support the US currently sends to Israel, should be given to that Nation.
 
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