This is not Anti-Semetism- Why Zionism and the state of Israel are WRONG

[Levite]

Maybe I misunderstood your previous post Levite. My apologies. But as for me, I know that the suffering of my ancestors not only makes me who I am regarding ethics and humanity, but makes me largely humanitarian. It was a tragedy, and I don't wish to see it repeated, and one of the things that really scares me about the state of Israel is it will be repeated. The Jews who live in Israel are living on the edge, literally. Do you realize what could happen if this isn't done right?

Of course, like any responsible Jew, I worry about what goes on in Israel, and between Israel and the Palestinians. Some things that go on sadden and infuriate me, and not just on the Palestinian side. I don't like bloodshed any better than the next guy, and I certainly don't rejoice in anyone's suffering. And I must, unfortunately, admit that I see no end to the situation in sight-- which makes me no happier than it does you, I dare say. I suppose it's not even entirely out of the question that things could get worse, though I think it unlikely at this point. But to think that this conflict could turn into a genocidal bloodbath of Shoah proportions just seems deeply improbable to me. I don't really think that was ever likely, but to the degree it ever could have been, I think if that was going to happen, it would've happened a while ago.

 

[Cosmos]

None of it appears to be anywhere in the family of a fact.



First of all, I don't know how much I would want to base my arguments strictly on Torah: personally I think that's a bad choice for objective political argument. But if you insist: there were Twelve Tribes and not ten. Tribal identity is irrelevant: all tribes were part of the People Israel. The Land was given to the People as a whole, not to individual tribes-- that was merely how the land was divvied up. The Land was given forever. When the bulk of the Jews went into exiles, there was consistently a reassurance that they would return. And, since you mention it, many surviving communities of the Ten Lost Tribes have, in fact, been found, and now live in Israel.



No, communities of Jews have always lived there. They were simply a minority group for most of the past 1500 years. But they were always there, and Jews have never made a secret of the fact that we have never renounced our claim to the land.



This is irrelevant. Palestinians are not Canaanites. None of the Canaanitish peoples preceding the Israelite kingdoms remain today.



Bactria is tremendously northerly, in the region of the Hindu Kush. It is nowhere near the city of Ur, from which Genesis states Abraham came. Ur was easterly in the Fertile Crescent (Mesopotamia). And if you're going to cite Abraham, then it is irrelevant where he came from, since God swore the Land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants forever, and then repeated the promise to Isaac, Jacob, and to the people at Sinai.



I'm sorry, have you seen the population figures for the State of Israel lately? The majority of the populace there-- and the majority of the populace, believe me, supports the existence of the State of Israel-- are not Ashkenazim. They are Mizrahim (Middle Eastern Jews) and Sefardim (Spanish/North African Jews). Zionism as an organized philosophy was late in coming to the Mizrahim, but they took it up, and were indeed very grateful for it when the Arab countries in which they had been residing for millennia tossed them out of their houses and homes simply for being Jewish after 1948. I have met countless Mizrahi and Sefardi Jews in America, Europe, and elsewhere who are Zionists. And the vast majority of Jewish anti-Zionists I have met are Ashkenazim.

Allow me to clarify some information. Firstly, I know there are Twelve Tribes of Israel, and my mentioning the 'Lost Ten Tribes' was relevant and specific, and my argument was not pertaining to anything to do with tribal discrepancies. Yes, I know that the Re-gathering of the Nation of Israel has taken place--as this happened in 1863 when Baha'u'llah, a descendant of King David, converted many Jews to the Baha'i Faith and led many back to Israel with Him! Canaanites ARE the Arabs that have been the majority both before and after Israelite rulership. And the city of Ur would have been the westernmost region of Bactria with the Hindu Kush mountain ranges and valley being the easternmost. Lastly of relevance, the current nation-state of Israel did not accept said Sephardi, 'Middle Eastern' (Arab), or any other Jewish group until well after the northern Israelis with Western support had already founded the modern state founded in 1948 and decades of bitter racial divide in the Jewish community.

These are the FACTS!

 

[Levite]

Allow me to clarify some information. Firstly, I know there are Twelve Tribes of Israel, and my mentioning the 'Lost Ten Tribes' was relevant and specific, and my argument was not pertaining to anything to do with tribal discrepancies. Yes, I know that the Re-gathering of the Nation of Israel has taken place--as this happened in 1863 when Baha'u'llah, a descendant of King David, converted many Jews to the Baha'i Faith and led many back to Israel with Him! Canaanites ARE the Arabs that have been the majority both before and after Israelite rulership. And the city of Ur would have been the westernmost region of Bactria with the Hindu Kush mountain ranges and valley being the easternmost. Lastly of relevance, the current nation-state of Israel did not accept said Sephardi, 'Middle Eastern' (Arab), or any other Jewish group until well after the northern Israelis with Western support had already founded the modern state founded in 1948 and decades of bitter racial divide in the Jewish community.

These are the FACTS!

You simply don't know what you are talking about. It appears now that your factual errors stem from a perspective of Baha'i theology and religious doctrine rather than either history or Biblical scholarship. I don't see any further use in responding to your posts.

 

[Cosmos]

Baha'i scholarship is founded upon Biblical history, my friend. Rather, it may be that you are making an error on a cultural level (as we are not discussing theology, per se), for you seem to make the same mistake that many do in assuming the whole Zionist ideology is as universal as it may not be. The facts cannot be denied that the Western (Caucasian) Jews who were at the helm of founding the modern Israeli nation-state have dealt in a prejudicial manner the Jews of non-white backgrounds whose homelands are far outside of Israel, though all of these groups have sought refuge in Jerusalem today. Still to this day Talmudic Judaists do not fully accept those who do not follow the Talmud, despite the FACT that non-Talmudic Judaism outsources modern Judaism by centuries, and anyone can find conservative Jewish websites or forums attesting this.

Note: It is often misconstrued that certain people know certain things simply based upon background or something superficial. For example, some assume that being American makes one more of a specialist or knowledgeable than another in American history, though this belief may be full of myths, marginal error, or propaganda. Every people has a notion about where they come from, who they are, and ultimately a distinction from everyone else that confirms their life story. We need to make sure we're not over zealous concerning our own perspectives.

 

[fallingblood]

So falling blood, pretty much you think the Zionists deserve the land and the right to continue mistreating the Palestinians until they either leave Gaza or die?

I wouldn't say deserve. However, they have their right to the land. Even though it was given to them, they did fight in order to keep it. That, in my stance, shows that they have a right to the land. Especially when the Palestinians had already lost the land long before the Jews were given it. So I see that they have a right to the land. As to whether or not they deserve it, I wouldn't even venture to argue.

Also, I've never stated that I think the Palestinians should be mistreated. I see the Israeli government to be mishandling the problem (I don't think I would cal them all Zionists either as I see that as a dishonest tactic to demonize them, just as calling the Palestinians terrorist being the same thing). I think this is one case that their is a true war going on. Simply making a two state resolution won't solve this problem. It is nothing more than a bandaid covering the real problem.

As long as their are people who see it black and white, one side being wrong while the other right, there will be a problem. If those people were all wiped out, then the problem would away; however, that is a lot easier said then done.

Finally, Israel is a relatively new country. It will take some time before everything is worked out. That is part of a country growing up.

 

[Cosmos]

As long as their are people who see it black and white, one side being wrong while the other right, there will be a problem. If those people were all wiped out, then the problem would away; however, that is a lot easier said then done.

[youtube]VF-Qfgv6-vk[/youtube]
YouTube - Islam is older than judaism

This is highly relevant information both on a theological and more importantly to the thread topic being discussed right now in understanding the relationship between Hebrews/Jews and the Arabs from a rabbinical perspective!

Please watch the video and I am sure this will progress the thread!

 

[Levite]

This is highly relevant information both on a theological and more importantly to the thread topic being discussed right now in understanding the relationship between Hebrews/Jews and the Arabs from a rabbinical perspective!

Please watch the video and I am sure this will progress the thread!

:biglaugh: This is so bad it's hilarious! First of all the concept of a Noahide faith is a Rabbinic invention, which is aggadic (folkloric), and though currently popular as a concept amongst certain sectors of the Orthodox community, has never been doctrinal or in any way universally agreed upon in Rabbinic Judaism. There is absolutely no evidence such a concept predated the Rabbis of the Talmud and their compatriots of that era.

In fact, much more often than postulating a single, common religion, Judaism has postulated different religions for different peoples.

I don't know who this rabbi is, but clearly he's some kind of nut job. You can always find freaks on the fringe who are willing to say things at which most self-respecting members of the community would be aghast. This guy doesn't represent Jewish thought any more than Hashishim represented a movement in Islam, or any more than Christianity is represented by idiots who think Jesus was an alien.

The fact that you would post this kind of trash is all the evidence I will ever need to conclude that your knowledge of Judaism and Jewish history is so nonexistant it can be measured with negative numbers.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The fact that you would post this kind of trash is all the evidence I will ever need to conclude that your knowledge of Judaism and Jewish history is so nonexistant it can be measured with negative numbers.

Another case of rampant ignorance in the service of a rotten agenda.

 

[Kerr]

I don´t like what Israel does. Not because I am an anti-semite or anything, it is just that the entire situation stinks. We have a war that has gone on since before I was born, and in the end the major contribution to humanity the war does is to cause more hate and suffering. Just saying that I think people should try and focus more on solving the conflict then who is to blame for it.

 

[Cosmos]

Levite, the facts go beyond your ability to accept it or not. The rabbinical position is clear and undeniable. It is Biblical history that David and Solomon had the surrounding Semitic peoples serving them and Israel, and also narrated in-depth in the Qur'an. These peoples and their religions predate Judaism and apparently many were monotheistic, at least in orientation (note that early Judaism shows the rural lower classes still worshipping idols for centuries after Moses). The fact that you're this zealous over ideology reveals you, sir, to be the biased and prejudiced person--get over yourself.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Levite I'm glad you admit the Noahide movement is a Rabbinic invention. Finally something we agree on

 

[Cosmos]

Noahidism may be folklore, but I would not describe it as a mere invention other than maybe in more contemporary times it is relied upon for the Jewish world to understand non-Jewish societies. What is important to keep in mind is that the Bible documents history and it is a fact (within a scientific context) that the world's peoples are descended from the sons of Noah in that 70 sons went throughout the world to marry unto all the tribes of the Earth, thus creating 70 'kingdoms' or divisions of the known world on the five inhabited continents with a unity between a blood bonded culture united in a common spirituality. This is recorded in Book of Genesis where it speaks of the days of Peleg and the division of the Earth. In this same way is all of the world's peoples descended by blood from the First Man (i.e. First Prophet) Adam and Eve in that considering the actual population density of the planet six thousand years ago it is conceivable that the blood of two couples could spread generationally out into every gene pool over a period of time, or at least a cultural marriage that would legally through custom make another tribe a part of the family of another.

 

[Levite]

Noahidism may be folklore, but I would not describe it as a mere invention other than maybe in more contemporary times it is relied upon for the Jewish world to understand non-Jewish societies.

It is not so relied upon. It is one of many ideas about understanding non-Jewish societies that are embraced in a comparatively small proportion of the Jewish World, specifically, the ultra-Orthodox societies. The vast majority of Jews do not literally believe in Noahidism, and most do not believe in any kind of Noahidism at all.

What is important to keep in mind is that the Bible documents history and it is a fact (within a scientific context) that the world's peoples are descended from the sons of Noah in that 70 sons went throughout the world to marry unto all the tribes of the Earth, thus creating 70 'kingdoms' or divisions of the known world on the five inhabited continents with a unity between a blood bonded culture united in a common spirituality. This is recorded in Book of Genesis where it speaks of the days of Peleg and the division of the Earth. In this same way is all of the world's peoples descended by blood from the First Man (i.e. First Prophet) Adam and Eve in that considering the actual population density of the planet six thousand years ago it is conceivable that the blood of two couples could spread generationally out into every gene pool over a period of time, or at least a cultural marriage that would legally through custom make another tribe a part of the family of another.

Are you kidding? Is your thinking really this simplistic? Some parts of the Bible loosely document some Jewish history from certain viewpoints. But you would have to be a raving fundamentalist literalist to suppose that the early Genesis accounts are entirely non-metaphorical factual history. Even some of the great Talmudic medieval rabbis didn't think that way, and they didn't have the benefit of modern scholarship and science. Are you really completely unaware of the uses of metaphor and parable in ancient religious poetry?

Because if you say you really are enough of a literalist to take Genesis as entirely factual on a surface level, then I can only presume that

A) you are reading all of your Tanakh in Hebrew and Aramaic, because it would be pretty ridiculous to claim that each and every word of the Tanakh is non-metaphorical, literal, and factual, when you can't even read what the words are as written, but must read someone else's translation and take their word that they understood everything the way you think you want to understand it; and

B) you also follow each and every single one of the commandments, because if the entire Tanakh is the non-metaphorical, literal, and factual Word of God, why wouldn't you obey what it says? And I don't just mean killing your kid if he gets mouthy toward you, or stoning adulterers to death, or executing people who break the sabbath (which, as a literalist, presumably you keep): I also mean keeping kosher (surely a literalist wouldn't eat pork or shrimp), and always going outside the town to poop into a hole you've dug with your spade (Deuteronomy 23:13).

And what else would literally have to be true if every word were unvarnished factual Divine Utterance? Oh yeah, "And I will give to you [Abraham], and to your offspring after you, the land where you now sojourn-- all the land of Canaan, to possess forever; and I will be their God." (Gen. 17:8) Repeated to Isaac, and to Jacob, in later chapters of Genesis.

If you really are such a literalist that you think Genesis is documentary history, then you must be a fervent religious Zionist!

 

[Zardoz]

... has never been doctrinal or in any way universally agreed upon in Rabbinic Judaism. There is absolutely no evidence such a concept predated the Rabbis of the Talmud and their compatriots of that era...

Are you saying that Noachidism isn't in the Talmud? It most certainly is. I doubt they just whipped this up out of nothing, it was likely around a lot earlier. As to pre-dating the Talmud, in some ways the Ger Toshav can be thought of as a Noachide, and that's Torah.

 

[Zardoz]

I have to admit, I think that the idea that the whole world hates Jews may really be a significant overstatement. That was, I trust, dramatic hyperbole, and not a concrete statement of opinion...

Sadly, no. I don't 'look like a Jew', and I'm regularly appalled by the things non-Jews say about Jews, when they think it's 'safe' to not be PC.

I remember in Japan, I met Japanese antisemites. Huh? They knew nothing about Judiasm or Jews, and certainly never met a Jew in their life (or so they thought) and yet they hate Jews? That's just one example. It sickens me to think I know so many more.

Universal Boogyman.

He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

 

[Levite]

Are you saying that Noachidism isn't in the Talmud? It most certainly is. I doubt they just whipped this up out of nothing, it was likely around a lot earlier. As to pre-dating the Talmud, in some ways the Ger Toshav can be thought of as a Noachide, and that's Torah.

Z, it is certainly a valid interpretation to think of the Ger Toshav as a Noahide, but doing so is drash (interpretation), and not pshat (the literal meaning of the text). I'm not even saying it's a bad drash, I'm only saying it's not pshat. Aggadah or midrash is different from plain text: it is exegetical parable and commentary, not Tanakh.

And of course Noahidism is in the Talmud: that's where Rabbinic innovations are usually located. But there are quite a lot of things in the Talmud that were never accepted as universally doctrinally true in Rabbinic Judaism: differing halakhic views-- minority opinions and da'atei yechid (solitary opinions)-- as well as aggadot (midrash or parable). The notion of the 7 mitzvot b'nai Noach, to say nothing of the idea that they might ever have actually been historically followed by non-Jews, are aggadah, not halakhah. One is free to decide for oneself whether to consider the idea as theologically sound, and there is no expectation that anyone must consider the pseudohistorical presentation as doctrinally true. Jewish authorities have believed in the idea of Noahidism to differing degrees, from not at all, to quite firmly, over the years. There has never been anything close to universal agreement about it. Today, those who firmly believe in Noahidism are almost exclusively in the ultra-Orthodox community.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with non-Jews deciding to follow the 7 mitzvot, or with Jews thinking it's a nice idea that they do so. But to suggest that it is literal Torah, or universal Jewish doctrine-- perhaps even mainstream Jewish doctrine-- is simply not so.

 

[Levite]

Sadly, no. I don't 'look like a Jew', and I'm regularly appalled by the things non-Jews say about Jews, when they think it's 'safe' to not be PC.

I remember in Japan, I met Japanese antisemites. Huh? They knew nothing about Judiasm or Jews, and certainly never met a Jew in their life (or so they thought) and yet they hate Jews? That's just one example. It sickens me to think I know so many more.

Universal Boogyman.

Look man, I will be the first to agree with you that there is a whole lot of ignorance out there, which results in some very unpleasant stereotypes and misperceptions. But at least in my experience, I have met plenty of non-Jews who, before they ever find out I'm Jewish, are quite pleasant about Jews. And I have also met more than a few people who espouse casually anti-Semitic ideas out of ignorance, who, once they understand that the ideas in question are untrue, and were created only to perpetuate bigotry against perfectly "normal" people, are quite contrite, and grateful to have been educated.

I'm certainly not saying that there is no anti-Semitism out there: there is, and plenty of it. But there is a lot of distance between "there is way too much anti-Semitism out there" and "the entire planet hates us."

I know encountering anti-Semitism sucks. I'm sorry you had to hear it. I have encountered a lot: I was raised in the Midwest, and I got told I was going to Hell on a daily basis, got accused of being a God-killer, was presumed to be cheap and greedy and anti-Christian, and was even checked a couple of times by people looking for "your Jew horns." I got called kike, heeb, jew boy, shylock, moneygrubber, and ZOG boy. Believe me, I know what people can say and be like.

But a lot of those same people, when I took the time to explain and educate, confessed their ignorance, promised not to think such things anymore, and changed their minds and behaviors. And on some occasions, I wasn't the one who objected first when they said that kind of thing to me: a non-Jew was.

Good folks are out there. Plenty of bad ones, too. But a lot of good folks. I just can't believe that everyone is against us.

 

[Cosmos]

Levite, if you actually believe that Baha'is do not have allegorical interpretations of the Bible--then it is you who is ignorant of religion and overly zealous concerning your own theological beliefs. In fact, the Master Abdu'l-Baha teaches us to meditate upon metaphorical elements contained in scriptures, especially in the Book of Genesis. For example, Adam not only is an actual historic personage as the First Prophet of God of the Prophetic (i.e. Adamic) Cycle, but represents mankind itself. Eve represents the same thing, but the animus or sub-conscious traits (shadow) of the human being. The Garden represents a state of spiritual bliss, akin to the Hindu concept of the Thousand Petaled Lotus. Even in the historical annals of Exodus we are taught to meditate upon the spiritual allegories contained in, for example, the splitting of the seas--also allegorized with the same teachings in the Qur'an as the two seas that do not meet. So, it is apparent that it is not I who is misconstruing information. Yet, none of the allegorical significances take away the historic value and aspect inherent within the stories and even this is attested by both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. As a Jew, I am shocked you are entirely unknowing of this information.

Again, the folklore concepts of Noahidism are based upon Biblical history as a fact interpreted through a cultural lens. Let me also remind that you're being Jewish does not make you superior in comprehension, so do not get inflated with the assumption you're going to outdo me, as you have already made several unfounded mistakes in presuming what I do and do not know and what I do and do not believe in. To reiterate, I am fully aware of the metaphorical aspects and interpretations of the Holy Scriptures, which were not my focus in my comments, but the historical reality. Lastly, just so you know, these perspectives and teachings I receive come from a Jew, our Guardian of the Cause of God Neal Chase, a descended kohanim (kohen).

 

[Levite]

Levite, if you actually believe that Baha'is do not have allegorical interpretations of the Bible--then it is you who is ignorant of religion and overly zealous concerning your own theological beliefs. In fact, the Master Abdu'l-Baha teaches us to meditate upon metaphorical elements contained in scriptures, especially in the Book of Genesis. For example, Adam not only is an actual historic personage as the First Prophet of God of the Prophetic (i.e. Adamic) Cycle, but represents mankind itself. Eve represents the same thing, but the animus or sub-conscious traits (shadow) of the human being. The Garden represents a state of spiritual bliss, akin to the Hindu concept of the Thousand Petaled Lotus. Even in the historical annals of Exodus we are taught to meditate upon the spiritual allegories contained in, for example, the splitting of the seas--also allegorized with the same teachings in the Qur'an as the two seas that do not meet. So, it is apparent that it is not I who is misconstruing information. Yet, none of the allegorical significances take away the historic value and aspect inherent within the stories and even this is attested by both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. As a Jew, I am shocked you are entirely unknowing of this information.

Again, the folklore concepts of Noahidism are based upon Biblical history as a fact interpreted through a cultural lens. Let me also remind that you're being Jewish does not make you superior in comprehension, so do not get inflated with the assumption you're going to outdo me, as you have already made several unfounded mistakes in presuming what I do and do not know and what I do and do not believe in. To reiterate, I am fully aware of the metaphorical aspects and interpretations of the Holy Scriptures, which were not my focus in my comments, but the historical reality. Lastly, just so you know, these perspectives and teachings I receive come from a Jew, our Guardian of the Cause of God Neal Chase, a descended kohanim (kohen).

Yeah, OK, this is just your own theology and dogma. It has no relevance to Judaism. I'm done. I just can't be bothered banging my head against the wall of your ignorance.

 

[England my lionheart]

You can't throw the anti-semite card at me for this, I am a Jew myself, I have Jewish parents. According to Judaism, Jews have no right to have a state until the messiah comes and makes it holy. See: www.nkusa.org (Nuterei Karta- Jews against Zionism). Even if you do believe Israel has the right to exist, you cannot say that what the Israeli state does to the Palestinian people is right, or in line with Jewish ethics. Let's face it, Jewish ethics don't allow for treating people like the Israeli government treats Gazans. The majority of Jews in Israel are secular Jews, with no real sense of what it means to be Jewish, I know because some in my family still practice Judaism. The secular Jews in Israel just keep moving to Israel because Israel gives them land and government support, but is it right?

My answer to this is what do you epect them to do?