This may be a dumb question but...

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It was not the act of planting the tree that was the problem, but Adam and Eve's disobedience.

Both were critical factors in the end result.

And I don't think it would be reasonable to expect obedience from a person who doesn't know right from wrong.

 

[Reine]

Both were critical factors in the end result.

And I don't think it would be reasonable to expect obedience from a person who doesn't know right from wrong.

As an idealist, I look at factors like that ... trying always to figure out the 'why' of it. I look at all the possibilities if something had been done a different way, or perhaps there is a way to 'fix' unseen motivations that lead to errant behaviors.

But, the older I get, the more I realize that understanding does not always come to us in an immediate way; and it is best to just do the right thing and figure out the 'why' of it later. This saves us from a lot of destruction.

I can see now that choices I made, set me on the path I am now on ten years or more later. All parents want their kids to make the choices that will lead them to a good place in life... and it is just a fact that poor choices will lead to destruction.

This Creation account and the fall of man is a metaphorical story that teaches us this.
Adam and Eve both knew that God told them not to eat the fruit. That is just like my son when he was three and I told him not to have any cookies untill after lunch. It was the first time he heard that command... yet it didn't prevent him from sticking his hand in the cookie jar, blinking his eyes at me... and telling me he wasn't taking any cookies . It shows a resistant or rebellious spirit that we would be better of repenting of (ceasing) for our own best interest, ... and ask 'why' later.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As an idealist, I look at factors like that ... trying always to figure out the 'why' of it. I look at all the possibilities if something had been done a different way, or perhaps there is a way to 'fix' unseen motivations that lead to errant behaviors.

But, the older I get, the more I realize that understanding does not alwas come to us in an immediate way; and it is best to just do the right thing and figure out the 'why' of it later. This saves us from a lot of destruction.

So I'll feel better if I follow the herd and stop asking questions? I flat out reject this.

I can see now that choices I made, set me on the path I am now on ten years or more later. All parents want their kids to make the choices that will lead them to a good place in life... and it is just a fact that poor choices will lead to destruction. This Creation account and the fall of man is a metaphorical story that teaches us this.

So... if God hadn't placed the temptation of the Tree in the Garden, Adam and Eve would have led themselves to destruction?

Adam and Eve both knew that God told them not to eat the fruit.

Does this mean that they knew it was wrong to eat the fruit?

Either answer you can give is problematic.

That is just like my son when he was three and I told him not to have any cookies untill after lunch. It was the first time he heard that command... yet it didn't prevent him from sticking his hand in the cookie jar, blinking his eyes at me... and telling me he wasn't taking any cookies . It shows a resistant or rebellious spirit that we would be better of repenting of (ceasing) for our own best interest, ... and ask 'why' later.

And I bet that when this happened, you corrected your son; you didn't say "that was your one and only chance!" and throw him out of the house... right?

 

[Reine]

1. So I'll feel better if I follow the herd and stop asking questions? I flat out reject this.

2. So... if God hadn't placed the temptation of the Tree in the Garden, Adam and Eve would have led themselves to destruction?

3. Does this mean that they knew it was wrong to eat the fruit?
Either answer you can give is problematic.


4. And I bet that when this happened, you corrected your son; you didn't say "that was your one and only chance!" and throw him out of the house... right?

1. Oh, definately not. But I think everyone would be better off if they did what it takes to set themselves up in a postitive way for the future by doing the right things, and ask their questions along the way. I liken it to something I had my son and his friends sign saying they would not become addicted to drugs or alcohol. I realize that along the way they will try things, but I hoped to limit it so it would not become an addiction that would destroy them later.

2. Probably... I think that evil is possible only because it is the truth that exists as opposite to rightness. Somewhere along the way the free will would have given into disobedience. That's just IMO.

3. I think it's more general... they knew it was wrong to do anything God told them not to do.


4. He got tossed out shortly after he turned 19

But I get your point. This is why it's important to understand that this is a conceptual story. It shows in one short story, what making the wrong choices have on us and on others. It's a concept illustrated here: Poor choices will eventually lead to destruction, while good choices will lead to success. The good news is that there is a way to counteract the evil by reversing it:
1 Peter 4:8

Good News Translation (GNT)

8 Above everything, love one another earnestly, because love covers over many sins.



The Genesis is a story of paths... this above verse puts us back on the right path

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1. Oh, definately not. But I think everyone would be better off if they did what it takes to set themselves up in a postitive way for the future by doing the right things, and ask their questions along the way.

If you don't ask questions first, how can you be sure that you're doing the "right" things in the first place?

2. Probably... I think that evil is possible only because it is the truth that exists as opposite to rightness. Somewhere along the way the free will would have given into disobedience. That's just IMO.

So Adam and Eve were set up to fail from the start.

3. I think it's more general... they knew it was wrong to do anything God told them not to do.

If they had not yet done the thing that would allow them to tell right from wrong, then how could they know that it was wrong to eat from the tree?

4. He got tossed out shortly after he turned 19

But I get your point. This is why it's important to understand that this is a conceptual story. It shows in one short story, what making the wrong choices have on us and on others. It's a concept illustrated here: Poor choices will eventually lead to destruction, while good choices will lead to success. The good news is that there is a way to counteract the evil by reversing it:
1 Peter 4:8

Good News Translation (GNT)

8 Above everything, love one another earnestly, because love covers over many sins.



The Genesis is a story of paths... this above verse puts us back on the right path

I see it slightly differently. I think that the Garden of Evil story is a just-so story attempting to explain why we are the way we are. I don't think it's really meant as a morality tale about consequences of actions; I think its main message is that human beings are distinct from (and perhaps above, in some ways of looking at it) the animals, and that men and women have appointed roles.

 

[SCHIZO]

It was not the act of planting the tree that was the problem, but Adam and Eve's disobedience.

Is it Adam and Eve's disobedience that is in question or God's irresponsibility. You don't tell children where a loaded gun can be found.

Besides, planting a tree with a devil slithering around is irresponsible.

 

[Reine]

If you don't ask questions first, how can you be sure that you're doing the "right" things in the first place?


So Adam and Eve were set up to fail from the start.


If they had not yet done the thing that would allow them to tell right from wrong, then how could they know that it was wrong to eat from the tree?


I see it slightly differently. I think that the Garden of Evil story is a just-so story attempting to explain why we are the way we are. I don't think it's really meant as a morality tale about consequences of actions; I think its main message is that human beings are distinct from (and perhaps above, in some ways of looking at it) the animals, and that men and women have appointed roles.

Doing the right thing can be done by obeying the govering athorities, using gut instinct, intuition and facts. Sometimes it is done by trial and error. Then, you use truth of personal experience to correct your self and love, to get back on track.

Adam and Eve is a figurative story to teach you a moral concept. They knew it was wrong because God told them not to do it.

 

[waitasec]

But I get your point. This is why it's important to understand that this is a conceptual story. It shows in one short story, what making the wrong choices have on us and on others.

i agree with this.
i think this story is a work of art, personally...
it's thought provoking as art should be.

 

[Reine]

I see it slightly differently. I think that the Garden of Evil story is a just-so story attempting to explain why we are the way we are. I don't think it's really meant as a morality tale about consequences of actions; I think its main message is that human beings are distinct from (and perhaps above, in some ways of looking at it) the animals, and that men and women have appointed roles.

Sorry, ... I didn't mean to forget this. Yes, the story clearly shows that man need help... er.. I mean a HELPMATE

 

[work in progress]

and he strolled around in the garden? though personally, I think literal genesis reading is more for ***** and giggles, not so much insight. it's not really the point of the story, so yeah.

I still have lots of questions about the point of the story of course... such as, wouldn't it have been safer to not plant that tree there? it didn't say anything it about it being a test, as people are making up on their own.. it just says god didn't want them to eat from that AND the tree of life, so he told them not to. maybe he really thought that would suffice? anything else is just a guess, and I see those and raise it by "god is the represantion of some alien race which bred apes into what we are, and left us guidelines by which they will select their crop of slaves when they return" haha. makes just as much sense as the omnibenevolent god "testing us" and, well, disposing of most.

or it was just, you know, written by humans a looong time ago. after they transmitted it orally. but that's boring, I think it's the aliens < :slap:



yeah, but what do I know ^^ it's silly to nitpick about millenia old scripture, at least for me who knows to little. maybe that's god talking to the angels?

This story gives hints of how much the conception of God changed through the centuries, as Judaism developed as a religion. Adam and Eve could hide from God, because this God wasn't omniscient...at least not yet! The name used for God changes. In early Genesis "Elohim" is used to refer to what is translated now as God, even though Elohim is the plural form of Eloha, leaving the clear indication that this was a polytheistic religion with many Gods in the pantheon of heaven. Copernicus pointed out previously, that this story is one that can be traced directly to older Sumerian Epics, but dropped out much of the original narrative.

Later, when Yahweh is the God of Israel, the language indicates that the religion is henotheistic. Yahweh is the God of the Israelites...but he is a jealous God -- jealous because there are other Gods of the enemies, and Israelites who got caught worshipping or giving sacrifices to them would be put to death.

It takes a long time to get to only one God -- who is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everywhere at once, and fundamentalists who try to shoehorn the modern version of God into the older books of the Bible, end up having to twist and contort language and stories into pretzel-like shapes to make it all seem consistent. I've heard the skeptical Bible critic - Robert Price, stating that he first started realizing something was wrong early in his career as a theologian, when he started contemplating an encyclopedia of biblical apologetics, and realizing that if the Bible was really inerrant, a series of books explaining away contradictions for the fundamentalist, would not have been necessary in the first place.

 

[Reine]

Thank you waitasec, I agree.. a beautiful work of art

 

[waitasec]

I see it slightly differently. I think that the Garden of Evil story is a just-so story attempting to explain why we are the way we are. I don't think it's really meant as a morality tale about consequences of actions; I think its main message is that human beings are distinct from (and perhaps above, in some ways of looking at it) the animals, and that men and women have appointed roles.

and we are many things...
hence the many interpretations of it

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Doing the right thing can be done by obeying the govering athorities, using gut instinct, intuition and facts. Sometimes it is done by trial and error. Then, you use truth of personal experience to correct your self and love, to get back on track.

Simply "obeying government authorities" is no way to do the right thing until you determine that the government authorities are good. And Adam and Eve, prior to eating of the Tree, would not have had gut instinct or intuition available to them, and the scenario in the story leaves them rather short of facts.

This left them with trial and error, which got them punished by God with no opportunity for them "to correct themselves and love".

Adam and Eve is a figurative story to teach you a moral concept. They knew it was wrong because God told them not to do it.

But at the same time, they didn't know it was wrong because they didn't yet know what "wrong" is.

There's an inherent contradiction here.

And since Adam and Eve would have been incapable of exercising morality until after eating from the Tree, I don't see how the story can be intended to teach a moral concept.

Sorry, ... I didn't mean to forget this. Yes, the story clearly shows that man need help... er.. I mean a HELPMATE

I was thinking specifically about the bit at the end where God curses Adam with having to toil the Earth and Eve with the pain of childbirth.

 

[waitasec]

But at the same time, they didn't know it was wrong because they didn't yet know what "wrong" is.

There's an inherent contradiction here.

indeed there is.
and in order to make sense of this, it is an interpretation of how ignorant people understood why we die...because we have knowledge and we are responsible for our actions....which i think is poetic.

And since Adam and Eve would have been incapable of exercising morality until after eating from the Tree, I don't see how the story can be intended to teach a moral concept.

it was intended to breed fear for the sake of solidarity with in a tribe.

I was thinking specifically about the bit at the end where God curses Adam with having to toil the Earth and Eve with the pain of childbirth.

and not to mention the faulty design of the knee
our adrenal glands
one tube for breathing and eating...

this is the hand we are dealt with by the randomness and indifference of nature

 

[Reine]

Simply "obeying government authorities" is no way to do the right thing until you determine that the government authorities are good. And Adam and Eve, prior to eating of the Tree, would not have had gut instinct or intuition available to them, and the scenario in the story leaves them rather short of facts.

This left them with trial and error, which got them punished by God with no opportunity for them "to correct themselves and love".


But at the same time, they didn't know it was wrong because they didn't yet know what "wrong" is.

There's an inherent contradiction here.

And since Adam and Eve would have been incapable of exercising morality until after eating from the Tree, I don't see how the story can be intended to teach a moral concept.

I was thinking specifically about the bit at the end where God curses Adam with having to toil the Earth and Eve with the pain of childbirth.

When I say obeying the governing athorities, I mean in a way that will save you fines and jail time untill the athority can be further perfected. It still pays to obey. If the law says go 35 mph then do it to save yourself a fine, even if you think it is stupid.


I think Adam and Eve knew they were supposted to obey God. I think that takes care of the contradicion. We have found truth in our toiling and pain... it's not all bad. We come to the conclusion God was telling us by our experience. Experiencing the truth was one of the ways I said we could learn truth by trial and error, correcting ourselves along the way if we really search for truth.

This is a story, and you can learn from it whatever you will, and test it within yourselof for truth. You are your own judge and the informaiton I notice and learn from may be different from you. I am only telling you what my experiences have brought me.

 

[Fester]

Is it Adam and Eve's disobedience that is in question or God's irresponsibility. You don't tell children where a loaded gun can be found.

Besides, planting a tree with a devil slithering around is irresponsible.

Which is why I never plant trees that have devils slithering around in them. I think the simple point I was trying to make at the start of this has pretty much been left by the roadside.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When I say obeying the governing athorities, I mean in a way that will save you fines and jail time untill the athority can be further perfected. It still pays to obey. If the law says go 35 mph then do it to save yourself a fine, even if you think it is stupid.

But you're talking about self-interest, not morality.

And sometimes the governing authorities are not good. If Christians and their neighbours had taken the attitude you describe during the reign of Diocletian, Christianity probably wouldn't have survived.

I think Adam and Eve knew they were supposted to obey God. I think that takes care of the contradicion.

No, I don't think it does. Without right and wrong, we don't have morality. Without morality, we don't have what I've heard described as "moral oughtness"... IOW, until they ate the fruit, they didn't have anything that let them make the leap from "God told me not to eat this" to "I shouldn't eat this".

It's a trivial step for us, but only because we have a sense of right and wrong... a sense of what "should" be.

We have found truth in our toiling and pain... it's not all bad. We come to the conclusion God was telling us by our experience. Experiencing the truth was one of the ways I said we could learn truth by trial and error, correcting ourselves along the way if we really search for truth.

Wait - but doesn't this contradict what you said before? If God's curse with the Fall was meant as a punishment for disobedience, then this speaks against the idea that it wasn't a punishment at all, but in fact a valuable life lesson for Adam and Eve.

This is a story, and you can learn from it whatever you will, and test it within yourselof for truth. You are your own judge and the informaiton I notice and learn from may be different from you. I am only telling you what my experiences have brought me.

Well, I've already said what I think of it. I think it's effectively a re-telling of the Prometheus myth, only with a different take on it: Prometheus/Adam-Eve is made out to be the villain and Zeus/God is made out to be righteous.

 

[Psalm57]

Which is why I never plant trees that have devils slithering around in them. I think the simple point I was trying to make at the start of this has pretty much been left by the roadside.

LOL!!! :thud:

 

[waitasec]

When I say obeying the governing athorities, I mean in a way that will save you fines and jail time untill the athority can be further perfected. It still pays to obey.

i disagree with this...
if you know the governing authorities are mistaken it has to be brought to their attention, otherwise there is no progress.

 

[Reine]

But you're talking about self-interest, not morality.

And sometimes the governing authorities are not good. If Christians and their neighbours had taken the attitude you describe during the reign of Diocletian, Christianity probably wouldn't have survived.



No, I don't think it does. Without right and wrong, we don't have morality. Without morality, we don't have what I've heard described as "moral oughtness"... IOW, until they ate the fruit, they didn't have anything that let them make the leap from "God told me not to eat this" to "I shouldn't eat this".

It's a trivial step for us, but only because we have a sense of right and wrong... a sense of what "should" be.


Wait - but doesn't this contradict what you said before? If God's curse with the Fall was meant as a punishment for disobedience, then this speaks against the idea that it wasn't a punishment at all, but in fact a valuable life lesson for Adam and Eve.


Well, I've already said what I think of it. I think it's effectively a re-telling of the Prometheus myth, only with a different take on it: Prometheus/Adam-Eve is made out to be the villain and Zeus/God is made out to be righteous.

You may be right about it not being a lesson in morality, but self preswervation. I think the lesson though is that God wants us to funcion in a healthy manner to protect us out of love. If the only way we can learn this lesson is by touching the fires, then so be it... we will still learn. I don't think that Adam and Eve were punished for disobedience, I think they reaped the natural consequence of making the wrong choice. It's just the truth that worng choices are destructive. It is a metephorical storty to teach us this. We can choose to learn from these kinds of stories, or we can choose to experience things and learn from the road of hard knocks... either way we learn.