Thomas did not receive the Holy Spirit

[74x12]

I agree mostly but what does, ‘whose breath was coming on them’. Tell me more as I’m confused what you are saying!

Well I think it shows that Jesus is God. I mean he's breathing on them; to show them he is the one who gives the holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. While he was on earth; I believe his breath was just air like we breathe but when his true breath came ... it was the holy Spirit and it made a sound like as of a "rushing mighty wind".

 

[Soapy]

Well I think it shows that Jesus is God. I mean he's breathing on them; to show them he is the one who gives the holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. While he was on earth; I believe his breath was just air like we breathe but when his true breath came ... it was the holy Spirit and it made a sound like as of a "rushing mighty wind".

Ummm… wasn’t the Holy Spirit A GIFT FROM THE FATHER…?

• “I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)
• “And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;” (Acts 1:4)

Jesus is passing on the gift from the Father: the Father’s Holy Spirit!

Your Father promises you a great gift that he owns.
He sends that gift via a courier.
Is the courier your Father … because the courier delivered what your Father promised to you?

 

[Soapy]

Well I think it shows that Jesus is God. I mean he's breathing on them; to show them he is the one who gives the holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. While he was on earth; I believe his breath was just air like we breathe but when his true breath came ... it was the holy Spirit and it made a sound like as of a "rushing mighty wind".

So you think Jesus was God…

So God didn’t know who touched his cloak nor when he was going to return … but Yhwh knew everything?

Or are you saying that Jesus was Yhwh but didn’t have the power of yhwh at various times?

 

[Mark La Buda]

Presumably Thomas was present at Pentecost, though. So he caught up at the repechage.

In support, Thomas (the twin) was present at Pentecost-Acts 1:13. Therefore, it is clear-to me-that his did receive the "Holy Spirit" and was a worthy disciple. Note: "Judas the son of James" is not Judas Iscariot.-Luke 6:16; John 14:22.

 

[exchemist]

In support, Thomas (the twin) was present at Pentecost-Acts 1:13. Therefore, it is clear-to me-that his did receive the "Holy Spirit" and was a worthy disciple. Note: "Judas the son of James" is not Judas Iscariot.-Luke 6:16; John 14:22.

Of course. Iscariot was long dead by that time.

 

[Soapy]

In support, Thomas (the twin) was present at Pentecost-Acts 1:13. Therefore, it is clear-to me-that his did receive the "Holy Spirit" and was a worthy disciple. Note: "Judas the son of James" is not Judas Iscariot.-Luke 6:16; John 14:22.

I think it should also be pointed out that each present received as much of the Holy Spirit gift as their sin state allowed… That means that done received far less than you might think!

Therefore it is not out of sorts to imagine that some present there went on to set up their own version of what they imagined was Christianity!

 

[Clear]

Terrywoodenpic said : "Where was the Holy Spirit before Pentecost?
I would suggest that like, God, the Holy Spirit has always been with us and Guiding and comforting us. However Pentecost was the moment when everyone became aware of his presence in our lives. and the power of God working through him. "

Hi @Terrywoodenpic

I like your insight and your recognition of the principle that the Holy Spirit has been in operation and influencing individuals of all ages of time from the very beginning since this is consistent with the early Judao-Christian claims and descriptions in their literature as well.

For example, Jewish Haggadah relates that even Adam was influenced by the Holy spirit and was a prophet in his own right, while the dead sea scrolls tells us that God "sprinkle(s) each with a spirit of truth" and it is the "upright" that are given insight into knowledge of God, whereby those who follow the ways of God are "made wise" (1Q, 4Q and 5Q)

This is similar to the Christian Metaphoric literature where God "plows the fields" by means of the domestic animals (and produced food which benefits all, both domesticated AND wild) and similarly, the portion of mankind that becomes domesticated benefits all of mankind (including those who are not domesticated) and all of this being partly accomplished by the Holy Spirit who operates as a "shepherd" who will "shepherd everyone" who will allow themselves to be influenced rather than just a few.


Clear
τωτωειειω

 

[sojourner]

It is written by contemporary writers:

• “The Gospel of Thomas does not bear the marks of a work of inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”

Any comments in line with the OP?

And yet, contemporary scholarship holds to the validity of Thomas, and uses it to help verify other texts.

 

[sojourner]

I think it should also be pointed out that each present received as much of the Holy Spirit gift as their sin state allowed… That means that done received far less than you might think!

Therefore it is not out of sorts to imagine that some present there went on to set up their own version of what they imagined was Christianity!

This is tantamount to conspiracy theory at best.

 

[Windwalker]

This is tantamount to conspiracy theory at best.

It's also curious that you only get smaller portions of the Spirit if you have more sin in your life. Can't say I've ever heard of that theology before, have you? I'm trying to think of any Biblical passage that suggests this.

There's this verse, "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift," but that doesn't suggest anything about get 1/8 Spirit if you've been naughty, or 3/4 Spirit if you've been mostly good, but not quite enough yet.

Personally, I see everyone with 100% Spirit, and how much that is realized in us has more to do with personal obstacles blocking its flow. Like clogged arteries, which describes most 'sin states'; blocked Spirit circulation. In other words, we're all already Enlightened, but we're just not enlighted to that reality yet. We've got the right amount of blood, but poor circulation in the body.

 

[Soapy]

It's also curious that you only get smaller portions of the Spirit if you have more sin in your life. Can't say I've ever heard of that theology before, have you? I'm trying to think of any Biblical passage that suggests this.

There's this verse, "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift," but that doesn't suggest anything about get 1/8 Spirit if you've been naughty, or 3/4 Spirit if you've been mostly good, but not quite enough yet.

Personally, I see everyone with 100% Spirit, and how much that is realized in us has more to do with personal obstacles blocking its flow. Like clogged arteries, which describes most 'sin states'; blocked Spirit circulation. In other words, we're all already Enlightened, but we're just not enlighted to that reality yet. We've got the right amount of blood, but poor circulation in the body.

There's this verse, "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift," but that doesn't suggest anything about get 1/8 Spirit if you've been naughty, or 3/4 Spirit if you've been mostly good, but not quite enough yet.

I don’t get it … what you are saying. You don’t think that proportionate measure of the spirit is what the verse is saying…. Like, the smaller the glass the lesser the amount of spirit it can contain??

Personally, I see everyone with 100% Spirit, and how much that is realized in us has more to do with personal obstacles blocking its flow. Like clogged arteries, which describes most 'sin states'; blocked Spirit circulation. In other words, we're all already Enlightened, but we're just not enlighted to that reality yet. We've got the right amount of blood, but poor circulation in the body.

You think that the apostles received 100% of the spirit but their sin limited their use of it….

I don’t think that’s what the scriptures say. If each received DIFFERENT GIFTS… how can you claim they all received ALL THE GIFTS but limited themselves to one or few of those gifts…. How do you reconcile your thoughts with what scriptures says?
Doesn’t the story of the three servants and the talents the master gave them give you a better idea of the truth?

 

[Windwalker]

I don’t get it … what you are saying. You don’t think that proportionate measure of the spirit is what the verse is saying…. Like, the smaller the glass the lesser the amount of spirit it can contain??

No. That passage is talking about the gifts of the Spirit. Everyone has the same Spirit. How that is realized in each individual is a matter of individuality and personal growth. It doesn't mean you only have 1/16 of the Spirit until you are more mature, and then you have 1/2 of the Spirit, and then 5/8ths, and so forth.

Compare that with Eph. 1:

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory...

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,​

As you see, everyone has the same Spirit or "seal", but the measure is that of better knowledge, wisdom, and revelation, or "gifts", if you will.

You think that the apostles received 100% of the spirit but their sin limited their use of it….

Yes, of course. That's the same with anyone. Why do you think we are told to "go and sin no more"? It blocks access to that which we already fully have within us. The Apostle's never taught, "Repent a little and you will receive some of the Spirit now, and a little more later when you repent more."

I don’t think that’s what the scriptures say. If each received DIFFERENT GIFTS… how can you claim they all received ALL THE GIFTS but limited themselves to one or few of those gifts…. How do you reconcile your thoughts with what scriptures says?

Different gifts, are the gifts of the Spirit, not the Spirit itself. That is consistent with what I said. Everyone gets the same Spirit, full measure. But how that is manifested will differ from person to person, and differently within each person over the coase of their own lives as they grow. It will either be freed for us to grow through surrender, or blocked in us by 'sin' and not allowed to transform us. "Grieve not the Holy Spirit", says Paul. Don't work against God through your stubborn self-will, or 'sin', in other words.

Doesn’t the story of the three servants and the talents the master gave them give you a better idea of the truth?

Each person has their own gifts, or ways in which the Spirit manifests in their lives, because they are unique individuals. That doesn't mean that one has only 1/8th of the Holy Spirit, and another 3/4's of it. They all have 100% Spirit, and how much that manifests or is held back by them is what the parable is about. It's the same principle as lighting a candle and hiding it under a bushel. It's the same flame on each candle, but what the bearer of the candle does with it that changes. Not the gift of the Flame itself.

To put this another way, does God half love you, or love you fully? Do you need to earn God's love, and the better you are, they more God loves you? Do you believe that is true? Do you understand the idea of unconditional love?

 

[sojourner]

It's also curious that you only get smaller portions of the Spirit if you have more sin in your life. Can't say I've ever heard of that theology before, have you? I'm trying to think of any Biblical passage that suggests this.

There's this verse, "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift," but that doesn't suggest anything about get 1/8 Spirit if you've been naughty, or 3/4 Spirit if you've been mostly good, but not quite enough yet.

Personally, I see everyone with 100% Spirit, and how much that is realized in us has more to do with personal obstacles blocking its flow. Like clogged arteries, which describes most 'sin states'; blocked Spirit circulation. In other words, we're all already Enlightened, but we're just not enlighted to that reality yet. We've got the right amount of blood, but poor circulation in the body.

Receipt or withholding the HS isn’t a punishment/reward proposition. Ever.

 

[Soapy]

No. That passage is talking about the gifts of the Spirit. Everyone has the same Spirit. How that is realized in each individual is a matter of individuality and personal growth. It doesn't mean you only have 1/16 of the Spirit until you are more mature, and then you have 1/2 of the Spirit, and then 5/8ths, and so forth.

Compare that with Eph. 1:

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory...

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,​

As you see, everyone has the same Spirit or "seal", but the measure is that of better knowledge, wisdom, and revelation, or "gifts", if you will.


Yes, of course. That's the same with anyone. Why do you think we are told to "go and sin no more"? It blocks access to that which we already fully have within us. The Apostle's never taught, "Repent a little and you will receive some of the Spirit now, and a little more later when you repent more."


Different gifts, are the gifts of the Spirit, not the Spirit itself. That is consistent with what I said. Everyone gets the same Spirit, full measure. But how that is manifested will differ from person to person, and differently within each person over the coase of their own lives as they grow. It will either be freed for us to grow through surrender, or blocked in us by 'sin' and not allowed to transform us. "Grieve not the Holy Spirit", says Paul. Don't work against God through your stubborn self-will, or 'sin', in other words.


Each person has their own gifts, or ways in which the Spirit manifests in their lives, because they are unique individuals. That doesn't mean that one has only 1/8th of the Holy Spirit, and another 3/4's of it. They all have 100% Spirit, and how much that manifests or is held back by them is what the parable is about. It's the same principle as lighting a candle and hiding it under a bushel. It's the same flame on each candle, but what the bearer of the candle does with it that changes. Not the gift of the Flame itself.

To put this another way, does God half love you, or love you fully? Do you need to earn God's love, and the better you are, they more God loves you? Do you believe that is true? Do you understand the idea of unconditional love?

Wow… As I understand what you are saying is that the spirit is one but the amount you receive is different did each person.

Is that right?

The wine from the bottle is ONE WINE concoction but the AMOUNT of the wine depends on the volume of the container it is poured into. Right?

The bigger the container the greater amount of the ‘wine’ spirit it contains.

The apostles did not receive the FULL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit of the Father… only Jesus Christ received the FULL MEASURE.

Why did Jesus Christ, alone, receive full measure?

Because he and he alone was SINLESS. And being sinless he was able to reflect king David’s words:

• “You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.” (Psalm 23:5)

An apostle who received the gift of language didn’t suddenly later start being a doctor. The preacher didn’t later start being Prophesiers:

• “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.” (1 Cor 12:4)

Yes, the SAME SPIRIT distributes DIFFERENT GIFTS to each.
The WINE is the same but the DISTRIBUTION of the wine is different according to the ability to receive it (The volume of the vessel).

• “There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.” (1 Cor 12:5)

No one other than Jesus Christ performs ALL SERVICES at any time or times.

• “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.” (1 Cor 12:7-10)

Again, these verses outline that no one had/has all aspects of the spirit. EACH was given partial amounts - this gift, or that gift, or this and that but not those others. Only Jesus Christ received the full measure of the whole of the spirit of God!

 

[Windwalker]

Wow… As I understand what you are saying is that the spirit is one but the amount you receive is different did each person.

Is that right?

Absolutely incorrect. I clearly stated that there is no such things as 25% filled with Spirit, or 48%, etc. Everyone is 100% Spirit filled. But how much that is allowed to be realized within that person's life, is up to them. Your water tank is 100% full, but if you don't open the faucet, nothing flows out of it, and the ground at your feet will be totally bone dry.

The wine from the bottle is ONE WINE concoction but the AMOUNT of the wine depends on the volume of the container it is poured into. Right?

No. The containers are all the same size. But some have the spigots open, and others fully closed. Guess which ones give wine to those seeking refreshment?

The apostles did not receive the FULL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit of the Father… only Jesus Christ received the FULL MEASURE.

Do you believe God is Infinite? Is it possible for there to be less of God here, more of God there, or no God in this place or another?

If so, then are you sure you believe God is still Infinite? If there are places where God is not, then God would be finite. The same is true of 'more' or 'less' Spirit. That's a finite God, not an Infinite One.

What makes Spirit 'appear' more or less, is the person who either blocks the flow of it though themselves, or releases it. They hold it in, not lack it. Think of it like blood circulation. It's not less blood in the body, but just poor circulation that causes the hands and feet to turn blue and be cold as ice.

Why did Jesus Christ, alone, receive full measure?

He was the "express image of God". Meaning, his humanity did not block God from shining through. That's the goal of all Christians. To be like Christ. Right?

Because he and he alone was SINLESS.

It is possible for us to live a sinless life as well. Jesus taught, "Go and sin no more". If it wasn't possible, why did you tell us to do that then? When we live without sin, then nothing blocks Spirit. That's the Goal. Jesus supposedly taught people the Way to do that, didn't he?

An apostle who received the gift of language didn’t suddenly later start being a doctor. The preacher didn’t later start being Prophesiers:

• “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.” (1 Cor 12:4)

Yes, the SAME SPIRIT distributes DIFFERENT GIFTS to each.
The WINE is the same but the DISTRIBUTION of the wine is different according to the ability to receive it (The volume of the vessel).

Different gifts doesn't mean more Spirit or less Spirit. It is the same Spirit in all, says scripture, as you quoted, "There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.” (1 Cor 12:5)

Again, these verses outline that no one had/has all aspects of the spirit. EACH was given partial amounts - this gift, or that gift, or this and that but not those others. Only Jesus Christ received the full measure of the whole of the spirit of God!

I see your error in thinking here. The ways in which Spirit will manifest depends on the individual. That doesn't mean this gift means you have more Spirit, and that gift means you have less Spirit. While Jesus was the 'fullness of the godhead bodily', that did not mean he had all the gifts of the spirit, so to speak. Jesus himself said, "Greater works than these you will do". He recognized that each person manifests that same Spirit is different ways, even differently than from himself!

 

[Soapy]

Absolutely incorrect. I clearly stated that there is no such things as 25% filled with Spirit, or 48%, etc. Everyone is 100% Spirit filled. But how much that is allowed to be realized within that person's life, is up to them. Your water tank is 100% full, but if you don't open the faucet, nothing flows out of it, and the ground at your feet will be totally bone dry.


No. The containers are all the same size. But some have the spigots open, and others fully closed. Guess which ones give wine to those seeking refreshment?


Do you believe God is Infinite? Is it possible for there to be less of God here, more of God there, or no God in this place or another?

If so, then are you sure you believe God is still Infinite? If there are places where God is not, then God would be finite. The same is true of 'more' or 'less' Spirit. That's a finite God, not an Infinite One.

What makes Spirit 'appear' more or less, is the person who either blocks the flow of it though themselves, or releases it. They hold it in, not lack it. Think of it like blood circulation. It's not less blood in the body, but just poor circulation that causes the hands and feet to turn blue and be cold as ice.


He was the "express image of God". Meaning, his humanity did not block God from shining through. That's the goal of all Christians. To be like Christ. Right?


It is possible for us to live a sinless life as well. Jesus taught, "Go and sin no more". If it wasn't possible, why did you tell us to do that then? When we live without sin, then nothing blocks Spirit. That's the Goal. Jesus supposedly taught people the Way to do that, didn't he?


Different gifts doesn't mean more Spirit or less Spirit. It is the same Spirit in all, says scripture, as you quoted, "There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.” (1 Cor 12:5)



I see your error in thinking here. The ways in which Spirit will manifest depends on the individual. That doesn't mean this gift means you have more Spirit, and that gift means you have less Spirit. While Jesus was the 'fullness of the godhead bodily', that did not mean he had all the gifts of the spirit, so to speak. Jesus himself said, "Greater works than these you will do". He recognized that each person manifests that same Spirit is different ways, even differently than from himself!

You are wriggling badly. The last part caught you out …

Earlier you said that Jesus told ‘us’ (?) to go and sin no more. Do you really think the person you are speaking about actually NEVER sinned again?

If you are going to answer, ‘Yes’, then Jesus is not the only IMAGE OF GOD because he is image of God by never sinning. He does everything God shows him to do. There are:

• ‘Sins that lead to everlasting death; and there are sins that do not lead to everlasting death’!’

But sin is sin. Jesus ALONE had no sin!

So, your claim about the the amount of the spirit is incorrect. The spirit gives of itself as it sees for for the individual. You say the spirit gives all of itself but it’s the individuals who limits themselves.
That is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures says the spirit GIVES GIFTS [of itself]. … some this, some that, some of this and that… but no one gets ALL OF THE GIFTS - except Jesus Christ… You read 1 Corinthians 12 and set aside the truth that it speaks of.

And Jesus saying that there will be greater works done than he has done is simply because of the lack of understanding that people had of the way the world works. They did not understand bacteria nor the causes of disease outside certain parameters of the time. They didn’t understand what blood was really for in the body. So much that was misunderstood and hence the nature of the term, ‘Miracles’ that was claimed Jesus performed. They WERE miracles because no one could understand it. It’s like someone performing a ‘MAGIC’ trick!’ It’s not MAGIC… there is no such thing as MAGIC!! It’s simply tricks fooling the mind of those who do not understand slight of hand, misdirections, smoke and mirrors, and ‘invisible’ cables.
Before you scream… I didn’t say Jesus performed tricks… I’m saying that Jesus showed how many of the things people of that time thought were impossible would, in time, become normal. He healed the sick of things they themselves couldn’t do but we heal today. Even recently a woman was given her sight back (mildly) - What would the Jews have said about that if they could see that now!

But do you see that it wasn’t Peter, or John, or Andrew, Bartholomew, Matthew… who did these GREATER DEEDS, was it? The gifts of the spirit was given to such a wide diversity of people that ALL MANNERS of the spirit manifested itself through mankind … as it says in the scriptures. All aspects manifesting through skills in technology, doctoring, engineering, biology, chemistry, greater understanding of scriptures, of nature, of … everything! There were many polymaths in humanity but even so none of them were filled with all gifts of the spirit…. The SPIRIT did not fill them with all the gifts it had to give them.

And yes, for sure, what gifts THEY WERE GIVEN was down to them as to HOW MUCH OF IT THEY PUT TO GODLY USE!

 

[Windwalker]

Earlier you said that Jesus told ‘us’ (?) to go and sin no more. Do you really think the person you are speaking about actually NEVER sinned again?

I'm sure they did. But the goal is to not sin. If it's not possible to not sin, why did Jesus tell her to sin no more? Just because?

Point in case, take the Apostle Paul's bemoaning the fleshly nature and the spiritual nature, how they are at war with each other. "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Sound to me that he is saying we can overcome our sinful natures through obedience that spiritual nature. He's saying we can be delivered though the Spirit. In other words, overcome sin. "Sin no more". Right?

If you are going to answer, ‘Yes’, then Jesus is not the only IMAGE OF GOD because he is image of God by never sinning.

Where does it say this in the Bible? Doesn't scripture say that we are created in the image of God? The 'first adam" and all that. I do see scripture say Jesus is the "express image of God", but I don't see where it says the "only image of God". Do you? If so, where?

He does everything God shows him to do.

That's the spiritual goal for all of us, as children of the Father, like Jesus. Right?

But sin is sin. Jesus ALONE had no sin!

I've not said that humans don't have sin. "All have sinned", as scripture says. That doesn't mean we can't overcome sin, having all sinned in the past. We can however 'overcome the world', like Jesus did, according to scripture.

So, your claim about the the amount of the spirit is incorrect.

No it's not. You didn't answer my question. Is God Infinite, or is God finite? If God is Infinite, there is nowhere that Spirit cannot be. There is nowhere there can be less of more Spirit, as Spirit is everywhere at once. Unless you believe God is finite, like a creature, or an entity of some sorts which has a body that can hide somewhere and not be in some places but can be in others, like living on the planet Kolob, as the Mormons believe.

Which is it? Finite, or Infinite?

The spirit gives of itself as it sees for for the individual. You say the spirit gives all of itself but it’s the individuals who limits themselves.
That is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures says the spirit GIVES GIFTS [of itself]. … some this, some that, some of this and that… but no one gets ALL OF THE GIFTS - except Jesus Christ… You read 1 Corinthians 12 and set aside the truth that it speaks of.

Gifts of the Spirit being giving, is not the same thing as the Spirit itself. Are you saying there are multiple Holy Spirits because there are multiple gifts? This line of reasoning makes no sense to me at all.

We all have a brain, and a body, and awareness. But are all musicians? Are all teachers? Are all scholars? Does this mean that musicians have more brains and bodies, then those that don't? Gifts are gifts. But Spirit is Life itself. Don't conflate the two as the same thing.

The gifts of the spirit was given to such a wide diversity of people that ALL MANNERS of the spirit manifested itself through mankind … as it says in the scriptures. All aspects manifesting through skills in technology, doctoring, engineering, biology, chemistry, greater understanding of scriptures, of nature, of … everything! There were many polymaths in humanity but even so none of them were filled with all gifts of the spirit…. The SPIRIT did not fill them with all the gifts it had to give them.

Exactly. But the Spirit does fill everyone with itself. Gifts are what we do with it through our particular vessels, such as they are. It's the same Spirit. The same amount of Spirit. Not 12% Spirit, not 32% Spirit, not 68% Spirit. There is no such thing as that.

And yes, for sure, what gifts THEY WERE GIVEN was down to them as to HOW MUCH OF IT THEY PUT TO GODLY USE!

Yes, the gifts, are us opening the spigot, letting that same Spirit that is in everyone flow out through us. The only difference is in our openness. Not the amount we all have. We all have the same Life in us. Do teachers have more blood than students?

 

[Soapy]

I'm sure they did. But the goal is to not sin. If it's not possible to not sin, why did Jesus tell her to sin no more? Just because?

Point in case, take the Apostle Paul's bemoaning the fleshly nature and the spiritual nature, how they are at war with each other. "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Sound to me that he is saying we can overcome our sinful natures through obedience that spiritual nature. He's saying we can be delivered though the Spirit. In other words, overcome sin. "Sin no more". Right?


Where does it say this in the Bible? Doesn't scripture say that we are created in the image of God? The 'first adam" and all that. I do see scripture say Jesus is the "express image of God", but I don't see where it says the "only image of God". Do you? If so, where?


That's the spiritual goal for all of us, as children of the Father, like Jesus. Right?


I've not said that humans don't have sin. "All have sinned", as scripture says. That doesn't mean we can't overcome sin, having all sinned in the past. We can however 'overcome the world', like Jesus did, according to scripture.


No it's not. You didn't answer my question. Is God Infinite, or is God finite? If God is Infinite, there is nowhere that Spirit cannot be. There is nowhere there can be less of more Spirit, as Spirit is everywhere at once. Unless you believe God is finite, like a creature, or an entity of some sorts which has a body that can hide somewhere and not be in some places but can be in others, like living on the planet Kolob, as the Mormons believe.

Which is it? Finite, or Infinite?


Gifts of the Spirit being giving, is not the same thing as the Spirit itself. Are you saying there are multiple Holy Spirits because there are multiple gifts? This line of reasoning makes no sense to me at all.

We all have a brain, and a body, and awareness. But are all musicians? Are all teachers? Are all scholars? Does this mean that musicians have more brains and bodies, then those that don't? Gifts are gifts. But Spirit is Life itself. Don't conflate the two as the same thing.


Exactly. But the Spirit does fill everyone with itself. Gifts are what we do with it through our particular vessels, such as they are. It's the same Spirit. The same amount of Spirit. Not 12% Spirit, not 32% Spirit, not 68% Spirit. There is no such thing as that.


Yes, the gifts, are us opening the spigot, letting that same Spirit that is in everyone flow out through us. The only difference is in our openness. Not the amount we all have. We all have the same Life in us. Do teachers have more blood than students?

Everything of your replies contains flagrant and purposeful errors as to what I said.

You claimed I didn’t answer a pointless question you asked me: It was not a question… God is eternal and God is everywhere … No one who believes in God denies any of these things…. It’s not a question to ask of a believer and say ‘you didn’t answer me!’.

But consider these two sets of verses:

• “By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.” (John 7:39)
• “7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.” (1 Cor 7-11)

What do you read? Does it say that the spirit of God gives the fullness of itself to all believers but the believers limit themselves as to how they use it?

 

[Windwalker]

Everything of your replies contains flagrant and purposeful errors as to what I said.

I'm just looking at it in ways you aren't. That's not an error. That's a different understanding. You think you have a monopoly on understanding these things?

You claimed I didn’t answer a pointless question you asked me: It was not a question… God is eternal and God is everywhere … No one who believes in God denies any of these things…. It’s not a question to ask of a believer and say ‘you didn’t answer me!’.

You still haven't answered the question then. Since you believe God is Infinite, is it possible for there to be anywhere that the Spirit of God does not exist? Yes, or no? If yes, then explain how that is possible since you acknowledge God is Infinite? If no, then explain how someone can have less Spirit and others more, and some none? Are there holes in God, like a block of Swiss cheese? Please explain this.

But consider these two sets of verses:

• “By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.” (John 7:39)
• “7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.” (1 Cor 7-11)

What do you read? Does it say that the spirit of God gives the fullness of itself to all believers but the believers limit themselves as to how they use it?

Those two are not connected. The Spirit "coming to" believers after Jesus left, and the gifts of the Spirit being diverse in believers, has nothing to do to whatsoever with more Spirit or less Spirit. Do you believe that someone who has the gift of teaching has more Spirit than someone with the gift of prophecy? Or vice a verse?

 

[Soapy]

I'm just looking at it in ways you aren't. That's not an error. That's a different understanding. You think you have a monopoly on understanding these things?


You still haven't answered the question then. Since you believe God is Infinite, is it possible for there to be anywhere that the Spirit of God does not exist? Yes, or no? If yes, then explain how that is possible since you acknowledge God is Infinite? If no, then explain how someone can have less Spirit and others more, and some none? Are there holes in God, like a block of Swiss cheese? Please explain this.


Those two are not connected. The Spirit "coming to" believers after Jesus left, and the gifts of the Spirit being diverse in believers, has nothing to do to whatsoever with more Spirit or less Spirit. Do you believe that someone who has the gift of teaching has more Spirit than someone with the gift of prophecy? Or vice a verse?

Goodness me!!! So you are now saying that you are just seeing things differently …. Didn’t seem like that to me in regards to the way you respond - it seems you are definitely saying that I am wrong. If you really want to say you see ONLY things differently then you would say something like: ‘I hear what you say but… in my opinion I believe it to be like this…’ (words to that effect!)

But in any case you are confusing the point I am making as I see it because you are starting to see the truth of what I’m saying. There’s nothing wrong with admitting you were mistaken - it is certainly better to say that than continue to skew your view slowly towards what I’m saying until we agree with each other and wonder what in hell we were arguing about all that time.

The scriptures say that the spirit of God GIVES its gifts to the believers as it sees fit …

Stop right there!!!

You claim that the spirit is given IN FULL to everyone (believers) but it is the believer that limits them-self as to the use of ALL the GIFTS given them.

This is odd since nowhere does any scriptures say this. AND, it’s different to THE SPIRIT GIVING OF ITS GIFTS. You say the spirit GIVES ALL OF ITSELF which means that it gives ALL ITS GIFTS to the believers.

I showed you that the scriptures say each believer RECEIVED different gifts: You say in effect that they received ALL THE GIFTS BUT CHOSE to use use less (or all?) and that’s the difference between them.

NO! I challenge you to produce a verse saying anything even remotely like that. Are you up to the challenge?

And as for you question (which isn’t a question valid anyway!). That was answered by the first verse in my last post: ‘The Spirit HAD NOT BEEN GIVEN AT THAT TIME’… YES, the Holy Spirit of God is everywhere since it is the spirit of God but that doesn’t mean that if is in effect with everyone at all times.. the verse tells you that. AND even Jesus, who was BAPTISED WITH the Holy Spirit (See ACTS 10:38) still PRAYED TO HIS FATHER for the use of it before carrying out any acts in his Fathers name:

• ‘Then Jesus looked up and said, Father, I thank you that you have heard me..., I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” (John 11:41-2)

Also regarding others:

• “When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.“ (Acts 8:14-16)

God is infinite… God is everywhere. His spirit is everywhere … but that does not mean that the GIFTS of the spirit of God is given (even partially let alone in fullness) to everyone!