those cartoons again

[sindbad5]

All I'm saying is that if they can't accept our freedom of speech, then they have no place in our society.

does anybody told you that muslims are living in counries and socities other than yours?
at the other hand and according to your logic, usama bin ladin has the whole right to kick out westreners from the muslim socities because they don't accept what he think an islamic values.
what's the difference between the 2 logics?

What I am offering is a "join the 21st century or leave" approach. Where did I ever say anything about killing them if they can't adapt?

why on earth you think your values and life style is a must to join the 21 century? or the only right way of life?
i can argue with you in this issue for months

If they quietly protested, and said, withought blowing people up that they had a proble on this, muslims would not be viewed as htey are today.

they are protested peacefully, and do all these beautiful quietly things, but where is the excitement in a peacefully protest for the media, that's why the violence news are popped up for you to see.
i.e. you see the 5 min of the whole tape, but the excited 5 min.

 

[Zephyr]

does anybody told you that muslims are living in counries and socities other than yours?
at the other hand and according to your logic, usama bin ladin has the whole right to kick out westreners from the muslim socities because they don't accept what he think an islamic values.
what's the difference between the 2 logics?

As far as I'm concerned, we never belonged in your societies in the first place. There is no inconsistency here.

why on earth you think your values and life style is a must to join the 21 century? or the only right way of life?
i can argue with you in this issue for months

I didn't say that was the only acceptable choice, just the only acceptable choice if you wish to live in civilized nations.

they are protested peacefully, and do all these beautiful quietly things, but where is the excitement in a peacefully protest for the media, that's why the violence news are popped up for you to see.
i.e. you see the 5 min of the whole tape, but the excited 5 min.

We see violent protests because those are what we need to reduce. You could show hours of peaceful protests, but that doesn't change the fact that people are getting violent over stupid little drawings.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Sinbad, you are so seriusly confusing me.

 

[Fluffy]

Heya penguino,
Sinbad is suggesting that many Muslims are protesting peacefully but you just don't hear about it because it is not an exciting enough story for the media. A minority of Muslims are protesting violently and because the media only reports these stories, you get a skewed view of the entire picture.

I have no idea to what extent this is true but it seems reasonable enough to warrant further investigation.

 

[Somkid]

I think it would be nice to collect all the Buddha cartoons and show the people that there has never been a complaint, perhaps they could learn something from that, perhaps even photos of the Buddha bar in NYC which is really offensive.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Its not that Fluffy, i think he is muslims, doesent seem like one sometime.

 

[kai]

you talked about 2 very important issues here:
1- why Muslims care that much? why not let it go and ignore it ?
well, many things can be said to explain why this too sensitivity, i think because of how Muslims feel inside in this ages, Muslims never loose power or dignity along the 1400 years except only for the last 200 years when the west superseded and dominated other countries including the Muslim world. no muslims didnt lose their dignity in 1400 years of caliphate empires, they lost it when the empires crumbled and they stayed locked in medieval society unwilling to change or modernise

nowdays muslim feel lower, they are controlled by corrupted tyrants supported from the west, in need for the western technology all the time, can't wake up from the dust of the cultural and military occupations, planting israel in the heart by the west, deliberately disforming their image in hollywood movies and other media, their blood is cheap in many places, bening mass puneched because of some maniacs who commit murders and killings in Islam name, who are supported in the first place by west.would you rather the west deposed these tyrants or impose sanctions we cant do right for doing wrong with tyrants israel planted itself by its declaration of independence and subseauent war read history

Muslims are angry not because of these insults in itself - history full of ugly things more than a cartoons- but Muslims are angry because what these things represents in the western mind. They represent the impression of islamic terrorist , and that is because most terrorist claim to be Islamic these days or do you expect us to ignore this fact.

the situation exactly as if someone feel a strong oppression and deformation, and stand up and shout i'm not this kind of person.

by all means stand up and shout, protest but do not call for the removal of someones head while you are doing it

 

[Smoke]

Heya penguino,
Sinbad is suggesting that many Muslims are protesting peacefully but you just don't hear about it because it is not an exciting enough story for the media. A minority of Muslims are protesting violently and because the media only reports these stories, you get a skewed view of the entire picture.

So, one guy writes a letter to the editor, and another guy sets fire to an embassy. If you were a reporter, which story would you report?

 

[YmirGF]

you talked about 2 very important issues here:
1- why Muslims care that much? why not let it go and ignore it ?
well, many things can be said to explain why this too sensitivity, i think because of how Muslims feel inside in this ages, Muslims never loose power or dignity along the 1400 years except only for the last 200 years when the west superseded and dominated other countries including the Muslim world.

So the Ummah feels cheated, does it? I wonder why they do not look at their own actions and try to understand how that has placed them in the situation they are in. The sad reality is that Islam has produced nothing of note that has benifitted mankind for well over 500 years. There are good reasons why that is so.

nowdays muslim feel lower, they are controlled by corrupted tyrants supported from the west, in need for the western technology all the time,

You might want to ask yourself why Muslims have not made technological breakthroughs in past years. Could it be because her leaders lacked anything approaching "vision" and were tyranical in their own delightful way? It is your past leaders that killed the spirit of Muslims under their dominion, the "west" merely picked over the bones of a long dead culture.

can't wake up from the dust of the cultural and military occupations,

would you have preferred to be still under the rule of the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler? Rommel was an unstoppable force when he ploughed through North Africa. Do you think Hitler would have been congenial to Muslim autonomy or would he perhaps have installed his own local SS officials.

planting israel in the heart by the west,

Sorry about that, but Jews do have a right to their own homeland regardless of how Muslims feel about it. The sad reality IS that victors of battles can pretty much do whatever they jolly well please, so complaining about it after the fact is a bit silly.

deliberately disforming their image in hollywood movies and other media,

It's not like people of the Middle East understood "western" culture any better than we understood their culture, now, is it.

their blood is cheap in many places, bening mass puneched because of some maniacs who commit murders and killings in Islam name, who are supported in the first place by west.{/quote]Have you never had a "friend" who turned on you? Have you ever heard the expression "politics makes for strange bedfellow". It's not like Usama bin Hidin' was on the Hollywood "A" list.

Muslims are angry not because of these insults in itself - history full of ugly things more than a cartoons- but Muslims are angry because what these things represents in the western mind.

So you are angry about cartoons that show Muslims to be generally hostile to any offense? Doesn't that reinforce what the drawings are saying? Show me any other religion, beyond cultish lunatics, who react violently to offensive material about their religion.

the situation exactly as if someone feel a strong oppression and deformation, and stand up and shout i'm not this kind of person.

Yes, but if you are shouting at the top of your lungs that you do not get upset over stereotypes, that only serves to reinforce the sterotype. You do understand that, correct? The nasty thing about generalities and stereotypes is that they almost always have a kernal of truth at their heart. THAT is what ticks people off.

 

[Peace]

"We are doing this to document what is at stake in this case, and to unambiguously back and support the freedom of speech that we as a newspaper will always defend," Berlingske Tidende said.

And is it freedom of speech to hurt people and to offend them and to show disrespect to them? so it is a down to earth freedom in this case and I would rather call it a misbehavior and immoral; a freedom that doesn't care for people's human rights has no principles or morals in its dictionary.

 

[Peace]

In my opinion, the best thing Muslims can do is to ignore this bunch of idiots.

True!
May be they believe that the sky could be affected by the barking of dogs.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

And is it freedom of speech to hurt people and to offend them and to show disrespect to them?

If you want to hold people to this standard, then you need to hold fast to it as well.

Do not ever say that Jesus was not the Son of God as this may offend and disrespect Christians.

Do not ever say that the Tanakh is incorrect as this may offend and disrespect Jews.

Do not ever say that God exists as this may offend and disrespect Atheists.

I could keep going but I think my point is made.

Personally, no one has ever keeled over from being offended and no one has died from being uncomfortable.

Allah and his Prophet aren't such ball-bag wussies that they need a handful of their followers to go hurt them big, mean old newspaper men.

 

[Sunstone]

And is it freedom of speech to hurt people and to offend them and to show disrespect to them? so it is a down to earth freedom in this case and I would rather call it a misbehavior and immoral; a freedom that doesn't care for people's human rights has no principles or morals in its dictionary.

Your religious freedom ultimately rests on your freedom of speech. How can you or anyone else possibly have religious freedom without freedom of speech?

 

[Peace]

Your religious freedom ultimately rests on your freedom of speech. How can you or anyone else possibly have religious freedom without freedom of speech?

But freedom should respect the others, freedom of speech should have some moral principles.

 

[Sahar]

so it is a down to earth freedom in this case and I would rather call it a misbehavior and immoral; a freedom that doesn't care for people's human rights has no principles or morals in its dictionary.

Excellent point! What they are doing says one thing that they are bankrupt morally and ideologically.

May be they believe that the sky could be affected by the barking of dogs.

Hahaha...true!

 

[Sunstone]

But freedom should respect the others, freedom of speech should have some moral principles.

Of course people should respect others. But you cannot legislate that respect. You can no more force people to respect others by restricting their freedom of speech than you can ram democracy down the throats of the Iraqi people. If you want people to respect others, then you should encourage them to do so, but you cannot force them to do so.

 

[Sunstone]

what i find annoying is Buddha, Christ and other religious figure heads are depicted in cartoons, do Christians go up in arms about it? the answer no, we might be offended but don't go round burning flags like drugged up lunatics. (i know that seems a bit strong but it just annoys me soo much)

In the States, many people would willingly ban depictions of Christ that they disagreed with and prosecute the people behind them. Very often, the only thing that stops them from their mad folly are the courts.

 

[Fluffy]

Heya Midnight Blue

So, one guy writes a letter to the editor, and another guy sets fire to an embassy. If you were a reporter, which story would you report?

I do not mean to criticise the way that the media works. I only mean to criticise the person who:
a) is ignorant of the way in which the media works; or
b) is aware of the way in which the media works yet fails to take this into account when forming their conclusions

 

[Zephyr]

Nobody has the right to not be offended.

 

[kai]

And is it freedom of speech to hurt people and to offend them and to show disrespect to them? so it is a down to earth freedom in this case and I would rather call it a misbehavior and immoral; a freedom that doesn't care for people's human rights has no principles or morals in its dictionary.

you are free to object my friend and surprisingly you can note that i agree they can be seen as offensive to Muslims, but and its a big but the calling for killing over it does Islam no good . its your human right in the west to protest not to incite murder.