those cartoons again

[sindbad5]

I didn't say that was the only acceptable choice, just the only acceptable choice if you wish to live in civilized nations.

mmm, so, nations who don't live or accept westren value are not a civilized nations?

We see violent protests because those are what we need to reduce.

yeah, i can see that, especially after republishing the drawings again.

but that doesn't change the fact that people are getting violent over stupid little drawings.

stupid little things for you dear, but not for those people.
excuse me, but don't throw your values and beliefs - or unbeliefs, on us.
if it's ok for you to stand what so ever insults to your religion or believes, it's not ok for us.

we already have our package of values and our way of life, that deffer to an extent from yours, what's so hard to understand in this statement?

these values and belief makes us angry when our prophet or our religion get insulted.
is that clear enough? so, please stop judging us while standing in your own beliefs.

I think it would be nice to collect all the Buddha cartoons and show the people that there has never been a complaint, perhaps they could learn something from that, perhaps even photos of the Buddha bar in NYC which is really offensive.

oh Somkid, it's your proplem, not ours as muslims.
again, if anybody don't feel insulted when his beliefs get insulted, he's free.
but he don't have the right to stop others from feeling in another way than his.

Its not that Fluffy, i think he is muslims, doesent seem like one sometime.

it seems penguino you know much about islam; some time you describe it as a beautiful religion, another time you can differentiated true Muslim from non-Muslim,
what's your story exactly?

by all means stand up and shout, protest but do not call for the removal of someones head while you are doing it

ok, i'll not call for a removal of someones head,
i'll not do that again, promise
i'm sorry, thanks for your precious advice.

 

[sindbad5]

I wonder why they do not look at their own actions and try to understand how that has placed them in the situation they are in.

and that's what Muslims try to do, there are already a huge ideological war between many directions in Islamic world.
i want to say ; don't support the extremists side by pushing Muslims in defensive ditch where they feel they are under attack.

It is your past leaders that killed the spirit of Muslims under their dominion, the "west" merely picked over the bones of a long dead culture.

i agree with your first statement.
but the second is not that much true,
the situation is as if you find a car with its keys inside, if you drive it away, you still thief, right?

Sorry about that, but Jews do have a right to their own homeland regardless of how Muslims feel about it.

muslims have nothing to do with jews want their homeland, but muslims has all the right to defend themselves when this homeland idea come true on their expense.

The sad reality IS that victors of battles can pretty much do whatever they jolly well please, so complaining about it after the fact is a bit silly.

the sad reality for zionists is that battles not yet ended, after 70 years nothing changed that much that make zionists celebrate victory, we will not leave them go away with palestine, and please YmirGF, i respect and appreciate your talking, but don't take us away from the main topic.

Show me any other religion, beyond cultish lunatics, who react violently to offensive material about their religion.

do we discuss about the right for Muslims to act violently against these cartoons?
NO, we discuss about the Muslims right to feel offensive and insult against these cartoons, i guess their are a difference

Yes, but if you are shouting at the top of your lungs that you do not get upset over stereotypes, that only serves to reinforce the sterotype. You do understand that, correct?

yes, i understand, but tell me is that any hope to change that stereotype ? and how?
seriously, i want to know your opinion about that.

 

[Zephyr]

mmm, so, nations who don't live or accept westren value are not a civilized nations?

In my opinion, they aren't. Places that will still execute people for their sexuality and allow themselves to be ruled by religion are far from civilized.

stupid little things for you dear, but not for those people.
excuse me, but don't throw your values and beliefs - or unbeliefs, on us.
if it's ok for you to stand what so ever insults to your religion or believes, it's not ok for us.

we already have our package of values and our way of life, that deffer to an extent from yours, what's so hard to understand in this statement?

these values and belief makes us angry when our prophet or our religion get insulted.
is that clear enough? so, please stop judging us while standing in your own beliefs.

Why should I stop judging people who became violent after a cartoon was published? Personally, I don't give a damn if your people get insulted by the cartoons. All I ask is that they stop going nuts over them. If somebody published comics making fun of my loved ones, I'd be upset, but I wouldn't go get some friends and burn stuff down and kill people over it. I fully understand that your values are different, but if they allow people to become so violent over the little things like this, then they are plain barbaric.

Everybody has the right to be offended, NOBODY has the right to not be offended, and nobody has the right to murder or threaten to murder other because they published something that doesn't hurt anybody. To argue otherwise is madness.

 

[kai]

mmm,

ok, i'll not call for a removal of someones head,
i'll not do that again, promise
i'm sorry, thanks for your precious advice.

what strikes me in your posts is that when you talk of Israel and zionists its a "we"

when its the public call for the beheading of cartoonists its "I" and i am not giving you advice i am trying to explain that the face of islam is presented by islam

 

[YmirGF]

and that's what Muslims try to do, there are already a huge ideological war between many directions in Islamic world. i want to say ; don't support the extremists side by pushing Muslims in defensive ditch where they feel they are under attack.

Sadly, exhibiting any kind of offense, reeks of intolerance, hidden under the guise of requests for respect. Where I come from, respect is not "a given", but rather, something that is earned. For example, one thing that will not earn my respect is asking/demanding that I be respectful. That will only get you far more colourful disrespect.

i agree with your first statement. but the second is not that much true, the situation is as if you find a car with its keys inside, if you drive it away, you still thief, right?

I suppose, but if the car is simply a figment of someone's imagination then there is nothing there to steal, now, is there?

the sad reality for zionists is that battles not yet ended, after 70 years nothing changed that much that make zionists celebrate victory, we will not leave them go away with palestine, and please YmirGF, i respect and appreciate your talking, but don't take us away from the main topic.

Even if has direct bearing on the lack of respect mentioned in the OP. There is always linkage, my friend.

do we discuss about the right for Muslims to act violently against these cartoons? NO, we discuss about the Muslims right to feel offen(ed) and insult(ed) against these cartoons, i guess the(re) is a difference

I guess Muslims are not big on this quote. Matthew 18:9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: ..." (King James Bible) -- It could just be me, but if I am offended by something it is usually because I am being overly serious and my feelings of offense dissolve through this understanding. Frankly, it is pretty hard to offend me.

yes, i understand, but tell me is that any hope to change that stereotype ? and how? seriously, i want to know your opinion about that.

There is a way, albeit it is unlikely to come to pass. Muslims need to find one voice or one group that can speak with authority for ALL Muslims. In days long gone, this position was held by the Caliph. As things are now, we have every flavor of ideology represented under Islam and that is most of the problem. (If you don't like an Iman and what his interpretations are, simply find one who agrees with your thinking.)

Another thought if that Muslims should abandon the idea that they have a God given right to violently respond to adverse situations. The violent outrage doesn't seem to be working, so perhaps it is time to pay attention to the examples of the Dalai Llama and Ghandi. It might also be an idea not to take yourselves so deadly seriously. Again, that seems to be good at breeding frustration, but it has also has a tendency to make many Muslims appear to be a few sandwiches shy of a picnic.

 

[sindbad5]

In my opinion, they aren't. Places that will still execute people for their sexuality and allow themselves to be ruled by religion are far from civilized.

In my opinion, you either take your knowledge from movies and TV, or have a serious shortage of knowledge about the world outer of your closed circle where you live.

Personally, I don't give a damn if your people get insulted by the cartoons. All I ask is that they stop going nuts over them.

your talk full of contradictions, one time you don't give a damn if my people get insulted by the cartoons, another time you give a damn so that all what you ask is to stop bla, bla, ba.

I fully understand that your values are different, but if they allow people to become so violent over the little things like this, then they are plain barbaric.

you know Zephyr what's really barbaric? huh?
"don't giving a damn for others feelings when you hurt them".

Everybody has the right to be offended,

ok, I leave that right for you to enjoy it.

but i have the whole right to ask not to be offended, and be angry if that happened.

at this point, i think we both have a huge gap between us, without no offend, i think further talks will not bring us closer in any way.

 

[sindbad5]

what strikes me in your posts is that when you talk of Israel and zionists its a "we"

when its the public call for the beheading of cartoonists its "I"

i don't on any means intend to use "i" and "we" in different context, i just use the 2 words, no, the 3 words as a 1 meaning "i, we, muslims"

please, understand me kai
to be specific, my points is as follwos:
1- muslims have the whole right to be offended and feel insult on these cartoons.
2- muslims have the right to express their anger in peaceful democratic way.
3- no muslims have the right to riot or turn protests into violence.
4- no one have the right to impose his values and standards on others.

 

[Zephyr]

In my opinion, you either take your knowledge from movies and TV, or have a serious shortage of knowledge about the world outer of your closed circle where you live.

So are you going to argue that homosexuals are tolerated in Muslim countries? I know a few folks that would think you mad for suggesting it.

your talk full of contradictions, one time you don't give a damn if my people get insulted by the cartoons, another time you give a damn so that all what you ask is to stop bla, bla, ba.

I don't give a damn if you get offended, but as soon as angry mobs break out something must be done.

you know Zephyr what's really barbaric? huh?
"don't giving a damn for others feelings when you hurt them".

Who have I killed? Am I (or people like me) burning down buildings and violently rioting over a petty issue? You clearly have a skewed view of what is barbaric.

ok, I leave that right for you to enjoy it.

but i have the whole right to ask not to be offended, and be angry if that happened.

at this point, i think we both have a huge gap between us, without no offend, i think further talks will not bring us closer in any way.

Yeah, you can ask to not be offended, but that doesn't mean we have to stop. If you are offended, you have the right to be angry, sure. What you don't have the right to do, though, is get violent when you're offended.

 

[kai]

i don't on any means intend to use "i" and "we" in different context, i just use the 2 words, no, the 3 words as a 1 meaning "i, we, muslims"

please, understand me kai
to be specific, my points is as follwos:
1- muslims have the whole right to be offended and feel insult on these cartoons.
2- muslims have the right to express their anger in peaceful democratic way.
3- no muslims have the right to riot or turn protests into violence.
4- no one have the right to impose his values and standards on others.

I agree sinbad up to 4 that is! up to a certain extent if you go and live in another country you will be expected to abide by their laws

other than that we are in agreement

 

[Sunstone]

my points is as follwos:
1- muslims have the whole right to be offended and feel insult on these cartoons.
2- muslims have the right to express their anger in peaceful democratic way.
3- no muslims have the right to riot or turn protests into violence.
4- no one have the right to impose his values and standards on others.

I can't understand how anyone might substantially disagree with you, Sindbad. These are pretty much the same views I have towards things that offend me.

 

[doppelganger]

3- no muslims have the right to riot or turn protests into violence.
4- no one have the right to impose his values and standards on others.

I agree, no go tell that to the thousands of idiots who rioted, and the thousands who threatened to kill and injure people for exercising the simple power of expressing their opinion.

 

[sindbad5]

If you are offended, you have the right to be angry, sure.

Thank you very much, that's my point

 

[sindbad5]

I can't understand how anyone might substantially disagree with you, Sindbad. These are pretty much the same views I have towards things that offend me.

so, why people like Zephyr keep arguing muslims right to be angery over offensive acts?
what i found interesting in this discussion :
1- some people keep saying no muslims have the right to violence on these cartoons; give me any one tells the opposite.
2- some people say muslism have no right to be offended over that cartoons; after a while they said: muslims have the right to be offended, .... but wait a moment, they don't have the right to riot !!!!!!!!!
again, tell me any one tells the opposite.
3- muslims should keep working hard to earn respect; ok, who can say the opposite.

strange, right?

i tell you something, let's put media aside, and talk at the personal level:
i'll not say how beautifull islam is, or islam is not like that, etc
i will ask for another thing;
if anybody has a story with a muslim, either in west or any other place, positive or negative, why not telling us about that, and let's see in what things muslims are different from other humans on the planet, fair enaugh?

 

[TashaN]

Of course people should respect others. But you cannot legislate that respect. You can no more force people to respect others by restricting their freedom of speech than you can ram democracy down the throats of the Iraqi people. If you want people to respect others, then you should encourage them to do so, but you cannot force them to do so.

I totally agree with you uncle Phil.

its your human right in the west to protest not to incite murder.

True, Muslims should play the western game as many nations before them did so. They should abandon their backward acts and start thinking instead of their random, emotional and irresponsible acts.

 

[TashaN]

I think the Muslims deserve what happen to them, because they are divided, unorganized, powerless, fight amongst each other for stupid things, and above all that, have leaders who are obsessed with power who automatically can change the law of the country based on their own mood, unlike the west which have laws and regulations which even the president himself can't change or cross. Not to mention that the president might held responsible sometimes and stand in front of a court if he abused his power.

If the Muslims really had some power, i would have proposed a new law which states that anyone who insults prophet Mohammed in anyway should be thrown in prison after standing in front of a fair court of course , or at least, he should pay some millions as a punishment, at least, if the court allowed the offender to get away with it without inserting him to prison.

For example, the jews have succeeded in doing so when they banned any act of denial of the holocaust in many european countries and France is one of them, plus the massive amount of educational materials given to the children in school so when they grow up, they KNOW how to behave regarding this issue.

Take this issue as an example:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...y-revisionist-historian-holocaust-denier.html

I really respect those who speak about free speech and i have no problem about that, but i laugh at their hypocrisy when they come in front of me and say that i'm not allowed to practice my free speech when it comes to the holocaust. How ironic! ha?


I know that some people will say now how evil i'm to deny such an incident in human history, but just to let you know, i'm not a holocaust denier, but i'm wondering about this double standard. It's just a matter of curiosity.

So guys, am i allowed to deny the holocaust, practicing my free speech of course, in France and many other european countries?

 

[YmirGF]

If the Muslims really had some power, i would have proposed a new law which states that anyone who insults prophet Mohammed in anyway should be thrown in prison after standing in front of a fair court of course , or at least, he should pay some millions as a punishment, at least, if the court allowed the offender to get away with it without inserting him to prison.

We can only pray that Muslims never get any "real" power, in that case. Isn't fear of retribution just another way of enforcing compulsion? I had this misguided sense that there "can be no compulsion in religion". I guess I read it wrong.

Well it is always nice to see Muslim's sense of humor at play as surely you cannot be serious that non-believers be compelled to show your dear "Prophet" respect. And you wonder WHY non-believers have little respect... How terribly fascinating is that?

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Thats stupid, in that case, half of the western world would live in jail, there are more times hindus have been insulted WAY more times. Muslims have it good.

 

[Sunstone]

I think the Muslims deserve what happen to them, because they are divided, unorganized, powerless, fight amongst each other for stupid things, and above all that, have leaders who are obsessed with power who automatically can change the law of the country based on their own mood, unlike the west which have laws and regulations which even the president himself can't change or cross. Not to mention that the president might held responsible sometimes and stand in front of a court if he abused his power.

If the Muslims really had some power, i would have proposed a new law which states that anyone who insults prophet Mohammed in anyway should be thrown in prison after standing in front of a fair court of course , or at least, he should pay some millions as a punishment, at least, if the court allowed the offender to get away with it without inserting him to prison.

For example, the jews have succeeded in doing so when they banned any act of denial of the holocaust in many european countries and France is one of them, plus the massive amount of educational materials given to the children in school so when they grow up, they KNOW how to behave regarding this issue.

Take this issue as an example:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...y-revisionist-historian-holocaust-denier.html

I really respect those who speak about free speech and i have no problem about that, but i laugh at their hypocrisy when they come in front of me and say that i'm not allowed to practice my free speech when it comes to the holocaust. How ironic! ha?


I know that some people will say now how evil i'm to deny such an incident in human history, but just to let you know, i'm not a holocaust denier, but i'm wondering about this double standard. It's just a matter of curiosity.

So guys, am i allowed to deny the holocaust, practicing my free speech of course, in France and many other european countries?

I think the European laws against denying the Holocaust are misguided and dangerous.

 

[Peace]

you are free to object my friend and surprisingly you can note that i agree they can be seen as offensive to Muslims, but and its a big but the calling for killing over it does Islam no good . its your human right in the west to protest not to incite murder.

Of course true Muslims protest but do not incite murder.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Of course true Muslims protest but do not incite murder.

Phew... Lets hope they stay in the majority.