Those who believe there is no God live by faith

[Heyo]

Interesting that you mention conspiracy theory.

Indeed, it seems to me that creationists, like other pseudoscience cranks, must either believe they have a unique insight that the whole of science has somehow missed (the free energy and electric universe cranks are often in this category - "They laughed at Galileo" etc.), or they must believe that there is worldwide conspiracy to suppress "the truth". I find it can be interesting to put these alternatives to creationists and ask them which one they subscribe to.

Conspiracy theorists. I once posted that thesis (all YEC are conspiracy theorists) as an OP on an other site and everyone agreed, even the YEC.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi all some questions for consideration for this OP....

1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

It certainly means they have no reason to believe that God exists.

BTW: you should realize that there are really only two ways that a belief could be true:

1. it's a justified true belief, or
2. it's coincidentally true, but unjustified.

In the first case, the person who's asking me to accept their belief ought to be able to tell me what the justification is. If they can't - i.e. if we're in "you can't prove it's false" territory, then we're really talking about the second case: i.e. a belief that's unfounded nonsense, but happened to be a serediptious correct guess by random chance.

IOW, the second case is the "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" types of belief.

Does your God fall into the first case (there's good justification to believe in him) or the second (there's not good justification to believe in him)?

2. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

If I say "yes," do I become eligible for the clergy housing allowance?

No. Merely diagreeing with you is not enough to define an entire religion. Your beliefs aren't important enough that everyone who rejects them has the same religion.

3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

No, it really doesn't.

4. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in God.

It's not actually that pressing an issue.

Religion is interesting as a cultural influence, so it pays to learn about religion for that reason, but treating god-claims as serious hypotheses about the world to be tested? Until I see the slightest suggestion that they might possibly be true, this seems like a tremendous waste of time.

I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures. Can you prove they are not

Probably not to your satisfaction. I just haven't bought into your belief system enough to consider "God's judgments" something I have to worry about.

 

[Samael_Khan]

1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

No it doesn't. But there is no evidential reason to believe there is a God.

2

. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

Wrong. One doesn't believe that there is no God. They rather have no belief in a God. So they have no faith in a God rather than having faith in a God. And they have no evidence for a God rather than having evidence for a God. Therefore they have no belief and no faith. Therefore they have no religion regarding a God.

3

. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

Wrong. They don't have evidence for a God therefore they have no reason to believe in one. So it isn't a belief. There is no need for them to worry about whether they are wrong about whatever scriptures in the same way you aren't worried about getting gored by a unicorn that you don't believe in.

4

. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO whether we believe or do not believe in God.

The best way to examine which faith is true is to examine all faiths in depth. If one hasn't done that then they are taking a leap. We all live by faith to a certain extent yes, but not in the religious sense.

I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures. Can you prove they are not

Firstly, I need to know which scriptures you follow and why you believe in them as opposed to any other scriptures?

And I need to know what would convince you that your scriptures aren't God's Word. It is different for different people.

 

[stvdv]

Wouldn't it then be best to not believe in any scripture?

Depends on the Scripture. I see no problem whatsoever with "my Scripture"

And, saying a person doesn't, and there does happen to be a God, what would this person be judged by?

Only God knows, so only God can tell. I never experienced a judgmental God. I have experienced the Law of Karma. I only know, that which I have experienced personally.

Your conscience is said to be a reflection of "God" by some. If true, you have "your own Scripture" always with you. I trust my conscience, my inner Scripture.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ You were the one who said to me you do not believe in God or the existence of God not me

Your response...

I never made that claim. Poor reading comprehension might lead one to think that. In fact that is one of the main reasons I concluded that may be a problem of yours. It is also reportable if you continue to make that claim.

Are you being honest now my friend? These are your words not mine in context...

3rdAngel said: ↑ So if you do not believe in God and you are an Athiest how can you believe in the existence God?

Your response...

Subduction Zone said: ↑ I don't believe in the existence of a god or gods.

From your post # 403 linked in your words in the closed thread "Setting the bible reader straight".

and again...

3rdAngel said: ↑ Sure but it was you that said you did not believe in God not me.

Your response...

Subduction Zone said: ↑ Right I do not believe in God. Or god. Do you believe in Allah? I don't. Is there a burden of proof upon you to prove that Allah does not exist? You might get this right.

From your post # 415 linked in your words in the closed thread "Setting the bible reader straight".

There are others but I these will do could not be bothered chasing them.

Seems you are not being honest again and simply digging a hole for yourself .

 

[3rdAngel]

Why don't we try the same questions with a tiny difference:

1. If one does not believe that there is a Santa Claus and they have no evidence that there is no Santa Claus does that mean that Santa Claus does not exist?

2. If one believes there is no Santa Claus and cannot prove there is no Santa Claus then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

3. Now for those who do not believe in Santa Claus and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the stories and carols are true?

4. Finally if there is a Santa Claus obviously not all gift sources (like the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny) can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in Santa Claus.

I believe Santa Claus's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow the command to "be a good boy or girl" according to the stories and carols. Can you prove they are not. Will you still get presents?

Thanks for your thoughts...

Nonsense! I do not know anyone that claims Santa Clause is real or anyone that has made a religion out of santa clause. In many religions many millions of people claim that God has revealed himself to them and given them messages to give to the world this is their belief so your example here is not relavant to the OP. If you believe there is no God or you do not believe in the existence of God that is your belief for which you have no evidence. Therefore your living by faith just as much as those who believe in God and the existense of God.

 

[3rdAngel]

From your reply to someone else
This is basically saying we are living by faith that anything we can't detect with our five senses isn't there. We take things for granted, yes; but, that's different than not having faith in something we haven't came in contact with to begin with.

Hi UA nice to see you. Faith is a belief for which there is no evidence. I was applying to to those who believe there is no God and do not have any evidence that God does not exist.

 

[3rdAngel]

Someone who collects coins has a collection. Someone who doesn't collect coins has no collection.

Someone who works has a job. Someone who doesn't work has no job.

Someone who is alive has a heartbeat. Someone who isn't alive has no heartbeat.

Someone who believes in a god has a belief. Someone who doesn't believe in a god has no belief.

IOW,,,,
-not collecting isn't a collection.
-not working isn't a job.
-not having a heartbeat isn't a heartbeat.
-not believing isn't a belief.

Wrong. If someone believes there is no God or they believe there is no existence of God it is a belief that there is no God or a belief that God does not exist. If you believe there is no God or God does not exist then that is a belief. If you have no evidence for your belief then it is a belief based on faith.

 

[3rdAngel]

Just for fun let's correct the errors in the OP again:

Yep this will be fun. Please start...

3rdAngel said: ↑1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

Your response...

This is a bit of a strawman since no one has claimed it. It is not wise to use strawman arguments because rhey are quite often the product of dishonesty.

I suggest you go and google the meaning of strawman and find out what it means. The answer to the question was no because those who do not believe in God or in the existence of God do not have evidence for their belief. If there is no evidence for belief it is simply a belief based on faith.

3rdAngel said: ↑ 2. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

Your reponse...

Again a bit of a logical fallacy here. What the OP does not realize is that absence of evidence can be evidence of absence in certain circumstances. But since this is not my argument I will leave it at the correction.

Nonsense! What you have posted above is a a gread example of a logical fallacy which does not make sense or does it address the post question you are quoting from. No evidence is simply an argument in silence and does not prove one thing or the other. For example, before science discovered electricity or radio waves the lack of evidence before they were discovered does not mean they never existed. It simply means they was no evidence for their existence until people found evidence. If you claim there is no God or there is no existence of God that is your believe. If now you have no evidence for your belief then you are in the exact same situation as the person you claim has no evidence that there is God and that God exists. Therefore your belief is faith because you have no evidence.

3rdAngel said: ↑3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

Your response...

And here we have his classic error. A lack of belief is not a belief of nonexistence. A concept our OP cannot understand yet.

Nonsense! As posted earlier athiesm is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. You have already said in your own words that you do not believe in God or the existence of God. That is your belief. You have no evidence for your belief and if you have no evidence there is the possiblility that you are simply wrong. If your honest here you will agree. If not you are free to believe as you wish.

3rdAngel said: ↑ 4. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in God.

Your response...

And here we have the typical error of arrogance. "I can't figure out how to do this so no one can". Not all versions of god can be refuted, but some can. If a god is contradictory in nature one can refute it.

No need for Ad Hom. How do you know it is you not understanding what the scriptures teach?

And one last error and it is a doozy. The burden of proof is upon him for his god, it is not upon others.

Why when your the one coming to a religious forum claiming there is no God or that God does not exist? I admit for many things I live by faith as I cannot definitively prove God or the existence of God but you my friend are in the same situation and if you are honest you do not have any evidence for your belief that there is no God and there is no existence of God therefore you also live by faith in what you believe. The difference between you and me is that I am at peace with what I believe and it seems you are not because for someone that does not believe in God or the existence of God you sure do like to talk about him a lot. Yes this was indeed fun.

We will have to do it more often.

 

[3rdAngel]

Oh, sorry for not being clear enough.
Scriptures are there for the believers, so all the good/bad granted by scriptures is for those who believe and act accordingly
Those who do not believe in a particular scripture won't get the good/bad granted by scriptures; obviously, because they don't read/believe it

Hypothetical:
Imagine you were punished as per Koran, because you follow the Bible in a way the Koran disapproves.
Does that not sound strange to you?

Same, but other way around, it is with the Bible

Those who do not believe in a specific Scripture will not be judged according to that Scripture

Hi stvdv, I understand you better now thanks for clarifying your earlier post. For me I guess it deopends if what you believe is right or wrong to begin with. For example in the bible it says in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives you a knowledge of the truth and you reject it than God holds you accountable for rejecting his Word *ACTS 17:30-31; HEBREWS 10:26-29. Now according to the bible if you are ignorant then you have an excuse not to believe but if you have been shown the truth and reject God's Word and continue in unbelief you will be judged by your unbelief (see JOHN 12:47-48; ACTS 17:30-31 and HEBREWS 10:26-39).

 

[3rdAngel]

Hi Polymath nice to meet you here. Some comments for your consideration below...

3rdAngel said: ↑ 1. If one does not believe that there is a God and they have no evidence that there is no God does that mean that God does not exist?

Your response...

No, although the lack of evidence strongly points in that direction. it is possible, of course, that nobody knows how to define or test for that entity. In which case, the default position is to say that clarification is required before the question can even arise sensibly.

Agreed this was my point.

3rdAngel said: ↑ 2. If one believes there is no God and cannot prove there is no God then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

Your response...

No. it can be based in evidence in spite of the evidence not being 100% conclusive (it seldom is). In particular, a lack of specific agreement across several different religious positions would strongly suggest all are wrong.

For me this argument can go both ways as both those who believe in God and those who do not both claim they have some evidence though like you state not conclusive. My question was asked to show that if you have no conclusive evidence for your belief then it is simply a belief based on faith no matter how you want to spin it.

3rdAngel said: ↑ 3. Now for those who do not believe in God and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the scriptures are true?

Your repsonse...

Sometimes absence of evidence *is* evidence of absence. No, I am not worried at all. Too many different scriptures with too many different claims to be worried any of them are correct in the absence of evidence in their favor.

I would disagree here as you already have in your first point above you said that the lack of evidence that there is a God does not mean there is no God. This is the same as electricity and radio waves before they were discovered by science. The lack of evidence for their existence before they were discovered does not mean they never existed. It simply mean't there was not evidence until they were discovered dispite being prestent all the time.

3rdAngel said: ↑ 4. Finally if there is a God obviously not all religions can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct faith? Seems we all live by faith IMO wheather we believe or do not believe in God

Your response...

Well, at least part of the problem is the ambiguity in the word 'God'. There are many different characteristics associated with that word and the method of searching would depend on the specifics of the definition. The first step is to see if there is consistency among God-believers. If not, the default would be that all of them are wrong and evidence would be necessary to move from that default.

It is a tricky question this one and not easily answered. It was made to show that it is impossible to find the correct faith (if there is one) without help from God asking him to guide and teach you. It is a faith question. Many religions live by faith and not by sight. According to the scriptures no one finds God by looking for him this way. Yet he reveals himself to those who seek him.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Poly.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ How does this relate to you when you have already told me you do not believe in God or the existence of God? This is a belief is it not?

Your response...

No. It is the absence of belief.

No, a belief that there is no God is a believe there there is no God the same as if you do not believe in the existence of God it is still a belief that God does not exist.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ Yet this is my point. If you cannot prove or have evidence that there is no God then you are living by faith just as much as those who believe in God or the existence of God.

Your repsonse...

No more than someone is living by faith that there are no unicorns or leprechauns.

No one believes in unicorns and leprechauns do they, let alone make a religion based around them. In many religions many millions of people claim that God has revealed himself to them and given them messages to give to the world this is their belief so your example here is not relavant to the OP. If you believe there is no God or you do not believe in the existence of God that is your belief for which you have no evidence. Therefore your living by faith just as much as those who believe in God and the existense of God.

 

[3rdAngel]

We've all heard of people who believe they've had an experience with Satan. We've all heard of people who believe they've had an experience of the Virgin Mary. Here's a question for you -- why is that Hindus never, ever, have visions of the Virgin Mary? Why is it that Shinto priests never see images of Jesus on their grilled cheese sandwiches

Have you ever heard of the saying out of sight out of mind? If someone does not believe and follow something why would they be thinking about it?

Do you know anything about the science of mind? Have you ever read the works of neurologist Dr. Oliver Sachs, who has shown how people can very strongly believe that they've experienced what they cannot possibly have experienced? Have you never heard of children who believed with strong fervour that there were monsters under their beds, or in their closets?

That may be true on indivudual cased and on a case by case basis. How would you explain 1/3 of the worlds population in Christianity alone? This is where your making monsters of your own making.

Have you never heard of the people who have been convinced that they've been in contact with their long-dead grandmother in a séance? Or read how easy it is for mediums to convince the gullible that they've done just that?

Indeed. There was a case written in the bible about Saul and the witch of Endore. Gullible who knows for sure?

Yes, I did answer the question in the OP. And it's not faith, it's knowledge.

No you did not answer the OP and no you have no evidence that there is no God therefore by definition you too live by faith even if you do not see images of Jesus on your grilled cheese sandwiches.

 

[3rdAngel]

Hi all some questions for consideration for this response....

1. If one does not believe that there are leprechauns and they have no evidence that there are no leprechauns does that mean that leprechauns does not exist?

2. If one believes there are no leprechauns and cannot prove there are no leprechauns then is this belief simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?

3. Now for those who do not believe in leprechauns and you have no evidence for this belief (faith), does it not worry you that you could be wrong if the legends are true?

4. Finally if there are leprechauns obviously not all legends can be correct as many are contradictory to each other. How would one go about finding what is the correct legends? Seems we all live by faith IMO whether we believe or do not believe in leprechauns .

Thanks for your thoughts...

Not really. I do not know anyone that claims leprechauns are real or anyone that has made a religion out of leprechauns. In many religions many millions of people claim that God has revealed himself to them and given them messages to give to the world this is their belief so your example here is not relavant to the OP. If you believe there is no God or you do not believe in the existence of God that is your belief for which you have no evidence. Therefore your living by faith just as much as those who believe in God and the existense of God.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ Other religions that believe in the existence of God would argue that the prophets are eyewitnesses that God exists. Just because we cannot see the wind does not mean there is no wind.

Your response...

Sight is not the only sense. We can hear the wind. Using certain techniques with shadows, we *can* see the wind. We can stop the wind, cool it down, and make a liquid or even a solid.

I was not making an argument about senses. Simply making a point that if you cannot see something does not mean it is not there.

3rdAngel said: ↑ Just the same as we cannot see electricity does not mean that it does not exist before it was discovered.

Your resoponse...

Again, sight is not the only sense. We knew about static electricity from direct experience long before we knew how to control electricity. We saw lightning and heard thunder long before that.

Before it was discovered one would not know what those things were. Although would you not agree with the examples you have provided that those who God revealed himself to is evidence to those who believe in God?

3rdAngel said: ↑ In science we ask questions and are opened to seek to answer questions we do not understand. If we do not know all things, there is always the possibility that God does exist if you cannot prove they he does not. As the OP states if you cannot prove that God does not exist your believe is simply as those who believe in religion and is based on faith.

Your response...

It is impossible to prove without a doubt that *anything* is non-existent. That is why the burden of proof is on the one making the existence claim. provide a method of testing for your deity that, if it goes the way you don't expect, would show your conception is wrong.

No need as a Christian we freely admit we live by faith in the existence and belief of God because no one has any definitive evidence that God exists although some evidence is there of course. I am at peace with what I believe. On the other hand those who claim there is no God and that God does not exist also have no evidence that there is no God and that God does not exist therefore just like the Christian and others who believe in God they also live by faith in their belief although they will simply not be honest about this IMO.

3rdAngel said: ↑I guess I am talking about undisputable definitive evidence. I do not believe both those who believe or do not believe have it, therefore their belief is based on faith.

Your response...

There isn't indisputable evidence that the sun exists. There isn't indisputable evidence that conservation of energy is true. That isn't a reasonable standard. Can we have the standard that is used in, say, particle physics: how about a 6 standard deviation to show existence? Or a similar 6 standard deviation from prediction to show the opposite?

This only proves my point. If you have no evidence then you live by faith if you believe in God or do not believe in God because no one can prove God exists or does not exist.

 

[3rdAngel]

Of course you believe that.
A believer can believe anything.

The same as a non believer will not believe anything if they choose not to

 

[3rdAngel]

So, not believing is believing?

If one does not believe in God it is a belief that there is no God the same as someone who does not believe in the existence of God is a belief that God does not exist. Which ever why you want to spin it if you have no evidence for your belief then your belief is based on faith.

 

[3rdAngel]

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim ergo theists.

I would say the burden of proof is on anyone making claims of proof. I believe in God and have been upfront my belief is based on faith and have peace in my faith. I can say God has revealed himself to me personally but this is my evidence but to you I can only point you in that direction. You must take the steps to see. On the other hand of those who claim and believe there is no God and that God does not exist the burden of proof is on those who make these claims to prove them IMO

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ This is probably I good way to view the scriptures IMO Ice. The promise in the scriptures is that we do not need a middle man. God wants to be our teacher to all those who are willing to prayerfully seek and find him through them. As the scriptures teach cursed is everyman that trusts in man and makes flesh his arm.. JEREMIAH 17:5

And from the OP:

3rdAngel said: ↑ I believe God's judgments are coming to this world to all those who do not believe and follow God's Word according to the scriptures.

So this is an example. You have come to believe that god will harshly judge those who do not believe. Now, I don't know your opinion on this next point, but I've been told my christians and muslims that their god knows when a person is lying. So here's how I connect the dots, using the logic of the religious:

1 - god made me. in my case, he gave me an inquisitive nature, and made me a seeker of evidence.
2 - god knows when i'm lying, so I can't just say I believe, I have to actually believe.
3 - god will punish me for not believing.

So far, so good?

That's one reason why I think that god as defined by Abrahamists is a reprehensible creature. He made me so that he can torture me. no thanks.

Well this only shows you do not understand the scriptures IMO Ice. God loves us and is not willing that anyone should perish. That said you can lead a horse to water... God has provided salvation for all mankind as a free gift. It is our choice if we choose or refuse to accept it. I have peace in what I believe Ice, how about you?