• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Thoughts on Atheism

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
hmmm, this sounds interesting...
We'll see...
Evangelicalhumanist said:
Choose to believe, I dare you, that gravity does not function when you have sufficient faith in God to prevent. When I say "choose to believe," I mean it in the way that you did when you said you can choose to believe.

Now, take the elevator up to the top of a tall building, and then weasel your way out onto to the roof. You know what's coming next -- go ahead and test your "belief." Is it really what you believe now? If it is, you will walk off the edge without the slightest fear.

I submit to you that with all the will in the world, you could not choose that belief -- and that consequently you could NEVER act on it.
...I'm bored now, this wasn't so well thought out a premise! A believer in God can make the very same argument against atheists - your premise is faulty, and duplicitous.
Duplicitous (lying) it certainly is not. Nor is it faulty.

And let me show you -- you say "A believer in God can make the very same argument against atheists." Okay, make the argument. Make sure it is "the very same argument," by the way.
Christians have converted to Islam - and to atheism... that leaves you a little dry throated here!
No, it does not. If anyone tells me on Monday "I am a true believer in Christianity" and on Tuesday "I've changed my mind, now I'm a Muslim," then the only thing I know for certain is that on Monday, they may have thought the believed something, but they did not believe it.

Believing you believe is not even close to the same thing as believing. And that would be something it might do you some good to contemplate.
Belief is absolutely a choice. But a choice based on ones own rationale and skepticism among other things... like axioms!

peace
Wrong --- QED
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've yet to meet an atheist who does not explicitly claim intellectual superiority as the fundamental reason for their holding a different belief.

Hello, Guy. Glad to meet you. I'm an atheist and don't make that claim.

If it would help you with your stereotyping of atheists, let me remind you of what Mae West said to the judge in My Little Chickadee after he asked her if she was trying to show contempt for his court after a given response: "No, your honor - I'm doing my best to conceal it."
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
This thread would have been interesting if religion was about belief in God.

But it isn't.

So what is atheism. Historically speaking the rejection of a prior cultural belief.

But this is beyond the scope of this thread.

edit: I would expect a response of a video of someone......"insert religion".....trying to explain how their religion gets along with science.......which isn't the point.
 
I define Atheism as the understanding that all gods are man-made superstitions. In the very same way that christians are certified Atheists to hindus and muslims are certified Atheists to christians, we are Atheists for all the same reasons but extend this disbelief to all gods that mankind has invented for the past 11,000 years.

At first, I disagreed with nihilistic views but after serious contemplation, it is a true fact that life has no intrinsic meaning or purpose other than what you make of it. For some, their purpose is to graduate from college. For others, its to get married and raise a family.

And for others still, their purpose of life is to find a source of food and fresh water so they can survive for just one more day.
 
Last edited:
That must be why Christianity and secular humanism are so much alike, and why Christians like secular humanism so much:

You limit Christianity to rank scriptural literalism, I consider it to be a diverse, complex and evolving tradition. Did rank scriptural literalism lead to Humanism? No, of course not. I just think defining Christianity that way is nonsensical.

The brand of liberal Christianity from which Humanism evolved was indeed very much alike, which is why SH hasn't caught on much outside certain Christian countries.

CThe Christian West has been under the influence of the secular democracies that emerged from the rise of Enlightenment values and secular humanism, and has been dramatically influenced by its rational ethics.

The virgin birth narrative. Humanism created itself rather than evolving from existing traditions as all other belief systems did.

The fact is that science (empiricism combined with rational skepticism), constitutional democracy with limited, transparent, and divided government guaranteeing person rights and freedoms, and the humanist worldview are all antithetical to Christianity and represent reactions and repudiation of faith based and authoritarian systems.

Yet strangely these reactions never occurred in a significant proportion of the world despite, according to you, them following pretty much the same religion. SH emerged and became popular in one of the societies but not the other, where it remains a fringe belief even after several centuries. It also remains a fringe belief in these societies which, in your opinion, are far more amenable to SH. Yet still they stubbornly resist.

It's almost as if culture matters, and Islam and Christianity are not in fact 'basically the same religion'...
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That doesn't stop us from choosing to believe or disbelieve in gods, however, as we can do so based on other criteria besides knowledge: biased skepticism in the case of atheism, and biased faith in the case of theism.

I'd say that my atheism is based in knowledge. I know that I should have a reason to believe anything because I've seen what can happen when I don't. And I know that I have no reason to believe in gods.

People use the word bias like it's a bad thing. It's only undesirable if it is irrational, that is, not based on the impartial and dispassionate evaluation of evidence. The first definition of bias I encountered was, "prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair."

But we all have many such preferences that are very fair - essential even - and they are biases as well. Much of learning is the accumulation of biases, such as that it is better to be kind than cruel. One might be biased against a restaurant because of bad service, bad food, overpriced, etc..

So yes, I am biased in favor of skepticism, and consider that a very solid foundation from which to evaluate and navigate life. It has served mankind well, and it has served me.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Q: How do you choose to believe in magic and the supernatural when you have a reasonable understanding of the physics of reality, and a reasonable ability to analyze ideas?
It's easy once you recognize that your bias against what you are labeling as "the supernatural" is a bias, and is not founded on knowledge, but on presumption. But that's irrelevant, anyway, since there is no requirement of "supernatural feats of magic" for gods to exist.
Not least because there's no coherent definition of 'god' useful to reasoned enquiry, so it's not even possible to have a sensible conversation about the god hypothesis, let alone an evidence-based one.
That's because you have never bothered to develop one. It was much easier and more ego-fun for you to simply pick the most unlikely definition from among other people's, and attack that as your conceptual 'straw god'.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
No, you are absolutely and completely wrong when it comes to the idea that one can choose what one believes. You simply cannot, and it is trivially easy to prove.

Choose to believe, I dare you, that gravity does not function when you have sufficient faith in God to prevent. When I say "choose to believe," I mean it in the way that you did when you said you can choose to believe.

Now, take the elevator up to the top of a tall building, and then weasel your way out onto to the roof. You know what's coming next -- go ahead and test your "belief." Is it really what you believe now? If it is, you will walk off the edge without the slightest fear.

I submit to you that with all the will in the world, you could not choose that belief -- and that consequently you could NEVER act on it.

In exactly the same way, I put it to you that the person who truly believes in the salvific power of Jesus could no more "choose" to "change his mind" than you could about gravity. Because if he could -- then he instantly makes a liar of himself when he said he truly believed.

Belief is (mostly) not a choice -- especially about extremely important matters. To think otherwise shows a really poor understanding of the workings of the human mind.
When you can come up with a reasonable argument for what I actually wrote. I'll respond.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Hello, Guy. Glad to meet you. I'm an atheist and don't make that claim.

If it would help you with your stereotyping of atheists, let me remind you of what Mae West said to the judge in My Little Chickadee after he asked her if she was trying to show contempt for his court after a given response: "No, your honor - I'm doing my best to conceal it."

You are not the worst offender, you at least offer some arguments of substance which are much appreciated, but I'm talking about stuff like this:


It would be pointless just as having science explained to creationists is useless here.

[creationists] have no interest in learning on their own.

You are a faith based thinker.

Ignoring the facts of reality in the defense of a belief


Have you studied any of this in the past? If your interest is sincere, there are online educational modules available to you free of charge. You'll need to pursue an education in a more comprehensive way than asking questions on a message board. You'll want to start with the fundamentals and build upon them - not ask scattered questions. I'll help you find resources if you want. But you'll need to do the work as I did.



^ not exactly doing a great job of concealing contempt here!

It's pretty standard fare we see all the time here. Overwhelmingly for atheists, anyone skeptical of their belief must,by definition, lack basic critical thinking skills, and/or are uneducated.

For the record again I think you, like most atheists, are a perfectly decent intelligent knowledgeable person, who just comes to a different conclusion, a different world view-
which I think is complete wrong! but that doesn't make you fundamentally intellectually inferior
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'd say that my atheism is based in knowledge. I know that I should have a reason to believe anything because I've seen what can happen when I don't. And I know that I have no reason to believe in gods.
You also know, or should know, that you have no reason not to. Because you have no knowledge of the nature or existence of any gods. Nor do you have any knowledge of their non-existence.

I understand that you may be making your choice based on your not needing to believe that any gods exist. But that is a subjectively derived choice, meaning that it's a choice that's subject to your own personal needs and desires; that you could change at any time. There is nothing to stop you from doing so, but you.
People use the word bias like it's a bad thing.
I did not mean it as a 'bad thing'. I just meant it as what it is. Faith is also a bias, but not a 'bad thing'. Subjectivism is a bias, but not a 'bad thing', either. So is what we call "reality", for that matter.
It's only undesirable if it is irrational, that is, not based on the impartial and dispassionate evaluation of evidence.
You don't get to define what is 'rational' for anyone but yourself. Sorry. You only get to propose what you think is rational, and then explain why you think so.
The first definition of bias I encountered was, "prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair."

But we all have many such preferences that are very fair - essential even - and they are biases as well. Much of learning is the accumulation of biases, such as that it is better to be kind than cruel. One might be biased against a restaurant because of bad service, bad food, overpriced, etc..

So yes, I am biased in favor of skepticism, and consider that a very solid foundation from which to evaluate and navigate life. It has served mankind well, and it has served me.
I understand. And once you recognize that your bias in favor of skepticism IS a bias, and is a subjectively derived bias (subject to your personal preferences), you also should be able to understand that you could choose to change that if you so desired. The fact that you do not desire to change it does not preclude you from being able to.

The key, here, is that the issue of the existence of gods in not knowledge based. And is therefor a subjectively based preference (bias). And because it is a subjective preference, we can change that preference if we want to, by whatever reasoning we want to use.
 
Last edited:

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Not only do we know creative intelligence exists, but we know that it's a quality of physical things; and that the only place we know it exists in the universe is on the earth; and that, whether as brains or as self-educating computers, its origin is from humans.

human intelligence..which according to atheism, is of natural origin also, right? so once again a phenomena we know exists, naturally by your own argument, must be prohibited from existing beyond the know universe, in order to allow spontaneous mechanisms to prevail- mechanisms which of course are not only allowed but assumed to exist... that's a lot of interesting presumptions, based on what?

I have no basis or need to banish either observed phenomena.

What do you mean, 'spontaneous processes'? Uncaused things? The quantum world surrounds you with countless processes every second that are 'uncaused' in classical terms.

Did I say uncaused? I know I said spontaneous, meaning as opposed to occurring by design

The religious notion of ID crashed and burnt at the Dover trial, and hasn't been rebuilt. The only evidence offered in support of it was 'irreducible complexity', championed by Behe, and all his purported examples were explained in evolutionary terms at the trial (blood cascade, immune system &c). Behe himself had admitted a few years earlier that his 'irreducible complexity' hypothesis didn't take exaptation into account; it hadn't done so by the time of the Dover trial (2005) and it hasn't done so as I write this (2017 Nov). That duck is dead.

On the contrary, more and more evolutionary biologists are looking for a better explanation than Darwinism, it best fit the evidence about 150 years ago, in a Victorian age model of reality.

Exaptation is in fact an absolute validation of the predictions of ID: The irreducible complexity of organisms by Darwinian processes- it simply don't work, as once claimed, So it turns out we do need something else:

'okay there's no way this feature can be built step by step, because it doesn't offer any advantage when half built....and the whole thing appearing spontaneously by random mutation is utterly absurd, so maybe each component served some other function somewhere else, and then got accidentally thrown together?'

^ this is the only logical retreat to take, like multiverses- it's not based on what the evidence demands, but what the conclusion demands

And again it works fine in theory for superficial physical Darwinian observations, feathers for warmth into wings.. not for the information systems in DNA which is the crux of the matter in the 21st C.
 
Last edited:

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheists simply pretend they don’t care for believing in God but spend most all their free time on forums discussing their non belief in God!!! Ironic.

Atheists are people that have transcended a need to believe in gods. You should consider it as well. It's very liberating.

Try standing up like the bipedal ape you were born to be.

Shed the comforting but disabling swaddling of religious beliefs, and look out into the universe, which may be almost empty, and which may contain no gods at all.

Then face and accept the very real possibility that we may be all there is for light years, and that things don't get better if we don't make them better.

Accept that you may be vulnerable and not watched over.

Accept the likelihood of your own mortality and finititude.

Accept the reality of your insignificance everywhere but earth, and that you might be unloved except by some of those around you - people, and maybe a few animals.

Because as far as we know, that's how it is.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
you can’t prove He doesn’t exist. I don’t think you know the scientific method nor the philosophy of science and are arguing through your own subjective ignorance now!

"He"?

I can prove that the god of the Christian Bible doesn't exist in the same way that I can prove that married bachelors don't exist. They're both logically impossible by virtue of the fact that they are said to possess mutually exclusive properties at the same time. That doesn't rule out the possibility of gods in general - just the logically impossible kind.

But notice that it's unimportant that gods in general cannot be ruled out. Neither can vampires or leprechauns, but we manage to plod through our lives just the same without such proofs. Or beliefs.

These are all ideas that can be disregarded without proofs or disproofs. Does it really matter whether the universe was created or arose spontaneously? And if it was created, whether by a disembodied creative force or a race of physical beings? Sure, the answers to these questions would be interesting, but not otherwise useful.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheists hardly make good scientists... and that’s actually from a sample study itself.

Actually, theists can't be good scientists unless they do the same work an atheist would do. As soon as their faith based beliefs plays a part in their work, it ceases to be science. Just look at the work of Isaac Newton. He developed calculus, and he did work in optics, gravity, and the laws of motion. The parts that are still valid and useful are exactly what a reason and evidence based thinker would have come up with, and which reason and evidence based thinkers today still find valid.

At exactly the point that Newton injected religion into his work, it stopped being science. Newton couldn't conceive of how the solar system could be stable without periodic nudging from God. He thought that the tug of the larger planets like Jupiter and Saturn would destabilize earth's orbit and send the earth into the sun or out of the solar system. Newton didn't have a mathematical model that could represent multiple bodies having gravitational effects on one another, and so he turned to religion and his

In 1798 Laplace chose not to view the mysterious stability of the solar system as the unknowable work of God, Laplace pioneered a new kind of mathematics called perturbation theory, which enabled him to examine the cumulative effects of many small forces. Laplace demonstrates that the solar system is stable over periods of time longer than Newton could predict.

Interestingly, when Laplace shared his work with Napoleon, who is said to have been physics literate, Napoleon allegedly asked Laplace what role God played in the regulation of the solar system. "Sire," Laplace answered, "I have no need of that hypothesis."

The point here is that as long as we stick to reason and evidence, we can do good science, but that as soon as we inject faith, no more progress will be made.

The ID people confirm that for us as well. Some have been published in reputable journals, but not for their work in ID. When they are published in the mainstream literature, it is for doing ordinary science - science that any atheist could have done, and which peer review, which presumably includes some atheists, found adequate.

But when they look for their god, they generate nothing of value. They're not doing science properly any more. They don't begin with evidence and draw inferences from it. They begin with a faith based idea - that a god intelligently designed the universe, and then set out to find supporting evidence wearing a faith based confirmation bias, something good science labors to neutralize, as when medical studies are double blinded to reduce patient and doctor biases. Neither knows whether the patient got the study drug or placebo.

The result of the confirmation bias is that ID people keep seeing irreducible complexity where there is none. That's a problem for good science. We want to see what is out there, not what a confirmation bias is willing to show us.

The competent scientist who is also a theist has learned to compartmentalize his faith and leave it outside of the laboratory or observatory door when he comes to work. That is, he is emulating his atheist colleagues.

You were disparagingly commenting earlier about atheists disagreeing with theists on Internet sites: "Atheists simply pretend they don’t care for believing in God but spend most all their free time on forums discussing their non belief in God!!! Ironic." This would be one reason why we are here.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I can no more choose to believe in gods than I could choose to believe in Santy Claus.

Of course you can choose. We all can. But to do so you will have to admit to your current bias, and that's what you think you can't do.

You are apparently unable to conceive of what it's like for those who tell you that they are not free to choose what to believe. You seem to think that you know our minds better than we do.

And quite frankly, if I could choose what to believe, I would consider that a dangerous situation and put myself on guard constantly to prevent myself from doing that. Why would I want random beliefs not grounded in experience and good thinking?

faith and skepticism, are just a personal bias.

Skepticism is one of the greatest concepts man has ever conceived.

In the West, rational skepticism was first introduced by the ancient Greek philosophers, whose skepticism about the claims that natural events were punishments from capricious gods led to free speculation about reality. Thales (624 BC - 546 BC) suggested that everything was a form of water, which was the only substance he knew of capable of existing as solid, liquid and gas. What is significant was his willingness to try to explain the workings of nature without invoking the supernatural or appealing to the ancients and their dicta.

The more profound implication was that man might be capable of understanding nature, which might operate according to comprehensible rules that he might discover.

What a great leap.

Another great idea was empiricism - the appeal to reality as the arbiter of truth. Rational skepticism with empiricism gives us science.

How about faith? What are its fruits? Between the ancient rational skeptic philosophers and the scientific skeptics of modernity came the faith based speculations of the Scholastics of the Middle Ages - the Age of Faith - which led to such irrelevancies as how many angels could dance on the head of a pin and how many different kinds of angels there were.

So yeah, mark me down as biased - biased toward ideas that work, and biased against those that are intellectual dead ends.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheism is a philosophical vacuum according to your definition of it (unbelief). It asserts nothing, defends nothing, and offers nothing, conceptually, to dialogue or debate.

I would agree with that. Atheism is not a philosophy. It is not even a belief. Not a single idea derives from it. There is nothing to assert except unbelief, nor to defend.

Think of your avampirism and aleprechaunism. Are they not also philosophical vacuums asserting defending nothing, and offering nothing to dialogue or debate? That's just fine, isn't it?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
SH emerged and became popular in one of the societies but not the other, where it remains a fringe belief even after several centuries. It also remains a fringe belief in these societies which, in your opinion, are far more amenable to SH. Yet still they stubbornly resist.

I'm disagreeing with what I think is you saying that secular humanism is an outgrowth of Christianity. I'm saying that it is a reaction to Christianity - a repudiation of Christianity. The roots of secular humanism are older than Christianity. If you saw my recent post about the ancient Greek philosophers beginning with the skepticism of Thales (624 BC - 546 BC) , then you realize that secular humanism has it roots in a different tradition.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I would agree with that. Atheism is not a philosophy. It is not even a belief. Not a single idea derives from it. There is nothing to assert except unbelief, nor to defend.
This is why your definition of the term apart from philosophy is wrong: it defines nothing.

Atheism is the philosophical counter-position to theism. It asserts that no gods exist, and thus it offers a view of reality/truth that can then be applied to life, and defended by both reason and results. And it's for these reasons that I reject the pointless ideological vacuum that you label "atheism". It deserves no label, as it is of no intellectual or philosophical consequence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's easy once you recognize that your bias against what you are labeling as "the supernatural" is a bias, and is not founded on knowledge, but on presumption.
Let's start with a clear definition of 'supernatural' such that if we encounter a candidate example we can objectively determine whether it's supernatural or not.

I don't know of one, but plainly you do.
But that's irrelevant, anyway, since there is no requirement of "supernatural feats of magic" for gods to exist.
Again, then, we need such a definition of a god.

Again, I don't know one, but plainly you do.
That's because you have never bothered to develop one.
It's not a question of bothering. It's a question of understanding, and you're about to enlighten me, I hope.
It was much easier and more ego-fun for you to simply pick the most unlikely definition from among other people's, and attack that as your conceptual 'straw god'.
Where, do you say, I did that? Quote me back to me.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is why your definition of the term apart from philosophy is wrong: it defines nothing.

Atheism is the philosophical counter-position to theism. It asserts that no gods exist, and thus it offers a view of reality/truth that can then be applied to life, and defended by both reason and results. And it's for these reasons that I reject the pointless ideological vacuum that you label "atheism". It deserves no label, as it is of no intellectual or philosophical consequence.

And of course my definition of atheism defines something. It defines the class of people that give the "No" answer to the question of whether one believes in a god or gods, which hardly rises to the level of a philosophical position. Are avampirism and aleprechaunism also philosophical positions?

Incidentally, some would generalize my definition further and include everybody that fails to give the "Yes" answer to the question of having a god belief, which brings in the infants and toddlers into the atheist fold. I didn't do that.

Your definition of atheism is flawed. Any definition of atheism that would exclude somebody like me is inadequate.

You don't really think that atheists are going to accept a definition of themselves from people that neither understand us nor approve of us? Your definition serves you, not us. As I said, I have no use for a definition of atheist that excludes most of the people with no god belief.

Furthermore, your definition of atheism is what most atheists call strong atheism, defines a subset of mine, and is thus superfluous. Weak atheist defines a different subset. The word atheist covers them both and includes them both.

Why do you suppose that only theists fight this fight? Many atheists agree with you that an atheist is somebody actively rejecting the existence of gods, but they don't argue with those of us who do not go that far. What's your interest in it?
 
Top