Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[URAVIP2ME]

You're both right, to some extent. The Bible teaches that death is an unconscious sleep until the resurrection, at which time there will be a judgment and the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire, where only the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn in torment forever.
"Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).
"Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire." --Revelation 20:10-15 (Amplified Bible)
So for humans, the lake of fire is just the second death, the death of the soul (the first death being the death of the body)--it is not eternal torture, like it is for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet; it is just destruction (which of course also lasts forever).

First of all, I would like to call your attention to Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 because there is a final judgement coming upon the Earth for those alive on Earth. Those figurative haughty ' goats ' will be destroyed forever.
Remember: Revelation's lake of fire is symbolic, symbolic not of fire, but of ' second death '.
The definition of the lake of fire is : 'second death' as per Revelation 20:13-14.
Satan ends up in the lake ( second death ) as per Revelation 21:8.
Satan is destroyed by Jesus as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
So, the lake stands for 'destruction' as in Psalms 92:7 saying the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.
That is the symbolic 'torment ' (does Not say 'torture', there is a difference).

In Gehenna ( KJV hell fire ) things were destroyed forever Not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna is a fitting term for: destruction.
Please notice 2 Peter 3:9 because it is ' repent ' or 'perish ' ( be destroyed ).
It does Not say repent or burn. Perish means destroyed forever Not burn forever.
The dead know nothing. Nothing but sleep - Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
That is why Jesus taught Not pain but ' sleep ' in death at John 11:11-14.
No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy in death or destruction.
Remember: it is ' death ' and 'Not death plus anything else' as per Romans 6:23,7.

 

[Jollybear]

Again, you have it backwards. I do not define rationality as agreement with me. I define rationality thusly:"the quality of being based on or in accordance with reason or logic"

And i use logic and reason just fine. Unless you define that different too?

A natural consequence of being rational is being in agreement with me, but agreement with me is the RESULT of rationality, not the CAUSE of rationality.

And how do you know being in agreement with you is the result of rationality when you have not answered all my points and pending questions?

To stick to that is the height of arrogance, would it not? Agree with you because you say so.

Yes, I know that in your case, being rational is not going to happen.

Of course what i meant by that is its not going to happen by your definition of rationality.

I do not NEED to attempt to teach algebra to chimps. I sometimes CHOOSE to attempt it for my own amusement, the occupation of spare time, and for the edification of onlooking higher primates with an interest in algebra.

You think your better or above me? Humility is not one of ypur greater strengths i see.

 

[Jollybear]

Thanks for the warning.

But I'm used to all kinds of tactics of avoidance, mis-direction, straw man arguments, denials, insults, lies, insane pseudo "facts", etc, from these Christians. As I've been on another Christian forum for many years, so know that's just they way they operate. Totally devoid of even a shred of honesty.

To me it's a challenge in trying to pin them down so even if they won't admit it, I can get them to see the falseness of their mythology. But ok, I do a LOT of forehead thumping at the absurdity of many of their responses, but an army helmet fixes it so I don't fracture my skull.

The problem is......your not honest.

 

[Ancient Soul]

First of all, I find you are referring to Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name alone )
That is why Jesus said MANY would come 'in his name ' but prove false at Matthew 7:21-23.
Christendom developed after the death of the first-century apostles as per Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
Jesus told us that genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together with the fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the Harvest Time, or the soon coming 'Time of Separation' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

The only time Jesus and the apostles 'passed the plate', so to speak, was when Jesus freely (without charge) fed thousands with bread and fish.
Jesus instructed at Matthew 10:8 to teach for 'free'. So, it is false clergy who charge or ask for $$$$.
False clergy are the ones who want the control and LOTS of $$$$$...
So, don't be surprised when the political suddenly turns on the religious world.
The wealth those false religions have amassed can look easy for the political taking.

What Jesus regulated was: free food, drink, weather phenomenon (calmed the stormy sea), sickness and death.
Jesus was giving us a small preview, or a coming attraction of what he will be doing on a grand-global international scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. ALL without charge.

I find it disturbing how you actually think your reply "refutes" what I posted, it has nothing to do with it.

Here, let me post it again:

"Another Christian tactic of avoidance. ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

So I don't see how a rehash of the silly jesus myth has anything to do with "refuting" what I stated.

 

[Ancient Soul]

The problem is......your not honest.

LOL

You are confused, I am soooooooo NOT a Christian.

And BTW :

You're is short for you are.
Your shows that something belongs to "you" or is related to "you" (e.g., your car, your father).

And that's ok, I fully well know that Christians aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack, that's why they were all so easily led astray down the spiritually void path of Christianity.

 

[Ancient Soul]

You think your better or above me? Humility is not one of ypur greater strengths i see.

Geez...

Not again.

DO try to get it right next time!

You're is short for you are.
Your shows that something belongs to "you" or is related to "you" (e.g., your car, your father).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I find it disturbing how you actually think your reply "refutes" what I posted, it has nothing to do with it.
Here, let me post it again:
"Another Christian tactic of avoidance. ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."
So I don't see how a rehash of the silly jesus myth has anything to do with "refuting" what I stated.

Huh?______ LOOK, there is a BIG difference between Christian and the so-called Christian.
'MANY' come in Jesus' name but prove false. That does Not make Jesus as false, but makes false teachings as false.
Those $$$$-loving preachers are Not teaching Scripture, but their church traditions or customs as being Scripture.
That does Not make the Bible as wrong, but makes those false teachers as wrong.
So, what silly rehash do you have in mind ________
You are going to be in for quite a shock!, because we are at the ' final phase ' of telling earth's nations that God's kingdom government is the government that will bring Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
So, this means we are nearing the ' final signal ' when the powers that be will be saying, "Peace and Security...." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation on Earth. So, what silly Jesus myth will you want rehashed then.

 

[Jollybear]

LOL

You are confused, I am soooooooo NOT a Christian.

Thats obvious.

And BTW :

You're is short for you are.
Your shows that something belongs to "you" or is related to "you" (e.g., your car, your father).

I dont care.

And that's ok, I fully well know that Christians aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack, that's why they were all so easily led astray down the spiritually void path of Christianity.

Your motivation is not to discuss or debate, only mock and redicule. You cant claim wer dishonest and stupid if thats how you debate. That makes you a hypocrite.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And that's ok, I fully well know that Christians aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack, that's why they were all so easily led astray down the spiritually void path of Christianity.

If genuine wheat Christians are Not the brightest bulbs in the pack, then I wonder what you are ________
MANY are 'spiritually dried up' and on a very broad path, but that does Not mean genuine Christians are.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Your motivation is not to discuss or debate, only mock and ridicule. You cant claim we're dishonest and stupid if thats how you debate. That makes you a hypocrite.

I notice he does Not want to try to reason on Scripture, so I guess that puts him in the category of 2 Peter 3:3-4.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're both right, to some extent. The Bible teaches that death is an unconscious sleep until the resurrection, at which time there will be a judgment and the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire, where only the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn in torment forever.

"Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works].

"Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire." --Revelation 20:10-15 (Amplified Bible)

So for humans, the lake of fire is just the second death, the death of the soul (the first death being the death of the body)--it is not eternal torture, like it is for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet; it is just destruction (which of course also lasts forever).

Again, only if you ignore some other verses. Earlier verses indicate an endless torture. By picking and choosing one can justify almost any belief.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I find it disturbing how you actually think your reply "refutes" what I posted, it has nothing to do with it.

Here, let me post it again:

"Another Christian tactic of avoidance. ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

So I don't see how a rehash of the silly jesus myth has anything to do with "refuting" what I stated.

Huh?______ LOOK, there is a BIG difference between Christian and the so-called Christian.
'MANY' come in Jesus' name but prove false. That does Not make Jesus as false, but makes false teachings as false.
Those $$$$-loving preachers are Not teaching Scripture, but their church traditions or customs as being Scripture.
That does Not make the Bible as wrong, but makes those false teachers as wrong.
So, what silly rehash do you have in mind ________

My bad. I keep forgetting that when dealing with Christians I have to spell everything out in it's SIMPLEST form so they might understand.

The whole jesus myth/bible was "invented" by plagiarizing other previous man/"god" pagan myths to start a then 'new" religion, that morphed into what is known as Christianity today. So THAT is why your mythology/bible falls into the classification of my statement of:

" ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

Do you understand now?

You are going to be in for quite a shock!, because we are at the ' final phase ' of telling earth's nations that God's kingdom government is the government that will bring Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
So, this means we are nearing the ' final signal ' when the powers that be will be saying, "Peace and Security...." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation on Earth. So, what silly Jesus myth will you want rehashed then.

Oh please!

Not THAT fear mongering tactic!

Look, I've had a most profound spiritual life that has given me a nice long lifetime of true spiritual experiences and understandings, so I know that all that Christian doom and gloom "end times" fear mongering is all lies, just like all the rest of it's mythology. Besides, cannot you see that Christian leaders have been perpetuating that worn out lie for the last 2,000 years that it's going to happen any moment now, hmm..., nothing yet?, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?,, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?,... bla, bla, bla... repeating it like a broken record for the last 2,000 years... YAWN

So face it, you've been conned for the last 2,000 years because it's NEVER going to happen. It's a myth, nothing more.

Here, LOOK at the verses your priest hide from you:

Matthew 24:25-34
King James Version (KJV)

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

*********************
Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 - But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

***************

So SEE, his "return" was supposed to have occurred during the lifetime of his direct disciples. And since it did NOT, that's it, the game was over some 2,000 years and you all have been lied to ever since.

 

[Axe Elf]

Thanks for the warning.

But I'm used to all kinds of tactics of avoidance, mis-direction, straw man arguments, denials, insults, lies, insane pseudo "facts", etc, from these Christians. As I've been on another Christian forum for many years, so know that's just they way they operate. Totally devoid of even a shred of honesty.

To me it's a challenge in trying to pin them down so even if they won't admit it, I can get them to see the falseness of their mythology. But ok, I do a LOT of forehead thumping at the absurdity of many of their responses, but an army helmet fixes it so I don't fracture my skull.

Well, I'm a Xian too, but probly not the type you're used to; I'm a rational Xian.

 

[Jollybear]

I notice he does Not want to try to reason on Scripture, so I guess that puts him in the category of 2 Peter 3:3-4.

He sure does perfectly fit the word scoffer. Thats for darn sure.

 

[Jollybear]

My bad. I keep forgetting that when dealing with Christians I have to spell everything out in it's SIMPLEST form so they might understand.

The whole jesus myth/bible was "invented" by plagiarizing other previous man/"god" pagan myths to start a then 'new" religion, that morphed into what is known as Christianity today. So THAT is why your mythology/bible falls into the classification of my statement of:

" ALL religions are man made and designed to insert themselves in between man mad God, so that they look to MAN for spiritual answers, but they have NO true spiritual answers to give, they only want control over others, self-aggrandizement, and $$$$, LOTS of $$$$."

Do you understand now?



Oh please!

Not THAT fear mongering tactic!

Look, I've had a most profound spiritual life that has given me a nice long lifetime of true spiritual experiences and understandings, so I know that all that Christian doom and gloom "end times" fear mongering is all lies, just like all the rest of it's mythology. Besides, cannot you see that Christian leaders have been perpetuating that worn out lie for the last 2,000 years that it's going to happen any moment now, hmm..., nothing yet?, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?,, no, it's going to happen NOW!... hmm... nothing yet?,... bla, bla, bla... repeating it like a broken record for the last 2,000 years... YAWN

So face it, you've been conned for the last 2,000 years because it's NEVER going to happen. It's a myth, nothing more.

Here, LOOK at the verses your priest hide from you:

Matthew 24:25-34
King James Version (KJV)

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

*********************
Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27 - But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

***************

So SEE, his "return" was supposed to have occurred during the lifetime of his direct disciples. And since it did NOT, that's it, the game was over some 2,000 years and you all have been lied to ever since.

For someone that claims to be spiritual, how do you justify mocking and redicule as a part of spirituality and honest/intelligent discussion?

 

[Axe Elf]

First of all, I would like to call your attention to Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 because there is a final judgement coming upon the Earth for those alive on Earth. Those figurative haughty ' goats ' will be destroyed forever.
Remember: Revelation's lake of fire is symbolic, symbolic not of fire, but of ' second death '.
The definition of the lake of fire is : 'second death' as per Revelation 20:13-14.
Satan ends up in the lake ( second death ) as per Revelation 21:8.
Satan is destroyed by Jesus as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
So, the lake stands for 'destruction' as in Psalms 92:7 saying the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.
That is the symbolic 'torment ' (does Not say 'torture', there is a difference).

In Gehenna ( KJV hell fire ) things were destroyed forever Not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna is a fitting term for: destruction.
Please notice 2 Peter 3:9 because it is ' repent ' or 'perish ' ( be destroyed ).
It does Not say repent or burn. Perish means destroyed forever Not burn forever.
The dead know nothing. Nothing but sleep - Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
That is why Jesus taught Not pain but ' sleep ' in death at John 11:11-14.
No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy in death or destruction.
Remember: it is ' death ' and 'Not death plus anything else' as per Romans 6:23,7.

Gee, thanks for restating everything I just said, although I don't see the purpose in the redundancy.

The only thing you got wrong was the part about Satan being destroyed, as if he was just another wicked human. The passage I quoted, in Revelation 20:10, clearly states that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The distinction you're trying to draw between "torment" and "torture" is not only a thin one, it's irrelevant to the topic of destruction (in which one could be neither tortured nor tormented) versus eternal suffering.

 

[Jollybear]

Well, I'm a Xian too, but probly not the type you're used to; I'm a rational Xian.

You think ancient soul will give a hoot about your claim?

Dont you see how seethingly strong his mocking energy is? You cant expect to gain any respect from the likes of someone like that. In his mind, being a christian PERIOD isnt rational.

Good luck.

 

[Axe Elf]

You think ancient soul will give a hoot about your claim?

Dont you see how seethingly strong his mocking energy is? You cant expect to gain any respect from the likes of someone like that.

Good luck.

:::shrugs::: I don't know if he will give a hoot about it or not. He might be interested in learning from a Xian who has greater understanding and rhetorical skills than a chimpanzee. Whether he "respects" me or not is really of little concern to either of us. I just saw him getting sucked in to your black hole of nonsense, and felt like warning him against trying to get you to see the light of reason.

 

[Axe Elf]

Again, only if you ignore some other verses. Earlier verses indicate an endless torture. By picking and choosing one can justify almost any belief.

Well, that's why you have us prophets, to help you sort out the more difficult concepts.

 

[Jollybear]

:::shrugs::: I don't know if he will give a hoot about it or not. He might be interested in learning from a Xian who has greater understanding and rhetorical skills than a chimpanzee. Whether he "respects" me or not is really of little concern to either of us. I just saw him getting sucked in to your black hole of nonsense, and felt like warning him against trying to get you to see the light of reason.

Your HALF of what he is with your mocking of me without answering any of my points and questions.

I dont NEED to say "im a rational christian"

My actions speak for themselves that i am in FACT rational. And your actions PROVE YOUR NOT! period!