Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[Hockeycowboy]

They "crossed the line" but they did not die that day.

Yes, they did. Ephesians 2:1.
They also began to physically die, and they did within Jehovah’s 1,000-year day. 2 Peter 3

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, they did. Ephesians 2:1.
They also began to physically die, and they did within Jehovah’s 1,000-year day. 2 Peter 3

I see that you do not understand what the phrase "that day" means.

 

[gnostic]

Interesting that the Bible relates that situation, doesn’t it? It reveals a candidness it seems, within its pages, many times.

It gives credence to its authenticity.

I wouldn't define God as "GOOD", if he killed the child for the sin of his father.

David was the one who sinned and the one who should have been accountable for his actions, but it is David's son was the one who died a slow agonising day.

How is that "just", Hockeycowboy?

How is God's action, "wise"?

 

[YoursTrue]

I understand it just fine. I am not the one spinning here.

Yes, you are. It was said in the day they eat from that tree they shall surely die. Just to help along, you do know that one day is sometimes considered as a thousand years, don't you, just in case you can't understand the death sentence was passed in that day they ate from the tree. They came from the dust, they went back to the dust. In or on that day, they passed the line. They left the possibility of everlasting life ("let us make man in our image") and crossed over to the march towards death, on that day. They died in the day.

 

[YoursTrue]

I see that you do not understand what the phrase "that day" means.

Yeah well in Ben Franklin's day there were no automobiles.

 

[YoursTrue]

I wouldn't define God as "GOOD", if he killed the child for the sin of his father.

David was the one who sinned and the one who should have been accountable for his actions, but it is David's son was the one who died a slow agonising day.

How is that "just", Hockeycowboy?

How is God's action, "wise"?

Man's justice is not like God's justice.

 

[YoursTrue]

I wouldn't define God as "GOOD", if he killed the child for the sin of his father.

David was the one who sinned and the one who should have been accountable for his actions, but it is David's son was the one who died a slow agonising day.

How is that "just", Hockeycowboy?

How is God's action, "wise"?

Tell me something. When someone - child or adult - dies in an accident is that just and wise? How about if someone just dies of old age? Is that ok because it's part of evolution?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, you are. It was said in the day they eat from that tree they shall surely die. Just to help along, you do know that one day is sometimes considered as a thousand years, don't you, just in case you can't understand the death sentence was passed in that day they ate from the tree. They came from the dust, they went back to the dust. In or on that day, they passed the line. They left the possibility of everlasting life ("let us make man in our image") and crossed over to the march towards death, on that day. They died in the day.

What the Bible says is clear. You are the ones that are trying to change it. But that does not really matter. That is not the only way that you say that God is lying.

And death was already in the world even before they ate the apple, but then that only shows the ignorance of the writers of the myth and adds on to why we know that it was a myth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah well in Ben Franklin's day there were no automobiles.

Thanks for confirming my claim.

Now that you did that are you ready to move on?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I wouldn't define God as "GOOD", if he killed the child for the sin of his father.

David was the one who sinned and the one who should have been accountable for his actions, but it is David's son was the one who died a slow agonising day.

How is that "just", Hockeycowboy?

How is God's action, "wise"?

What would have happened if it had been handled by the Israelite judges? Adultery resulted in the death of both, and if the woman got pregnant, that would have included the unborn child.
Keep in mind James 2:13....David had many times shown mercy to others, and Jehovah kept that in mind when administering punishment.

Also keep in mind, the Resurrection. It will reverse all the harm humans have experienced from death.

As the Bible highlights at Hebrews 4:12-14, the Scriptures are written in a particular way that will reveal our attitude toward it's words, toward Jehovah. It's up to us to be indignant at some of the events, or realize we are not given all the information...then adjust our attitude accordingly.

David did have trouble within his family, from that time onward....he accepted it, too. He never stopped turning to Jehovah.

Plus, although Jehovah dignifies our privilege of privacy by not using His powers of foreknowledge in seeing how we individually use our free will, He can see how things turn out; maybe David and Bathsheba's child would have died anyway, from sickness or whatever. We are not given all the details.

As I stated earlier, the Scriptures reveal what is our attitude, in our heart....only we can change it.


What helps me in accepting Jehovah's actions, is knowing what the future Resurrection will accomplish!

 

[Subduction Zone]

What would have happened if it had been handled by the Israelite judges? Adultery resulted in the death of both, and if the woman got pregnant, that would have included the unborn child.
Keep in mind James 2:13....David had many times shown mercy to others, and Jehovah kept that in mind when administering punishment.

If one's god is immoral does one have to follow its rules? Why would you do that? And killing of unborn children was not seen as a wrong in the Old Testament. Why bring that up?

Also keep in mind, the Resurrection. It will reverse all the harm humans have experienced from death.

As the Bible highlights at Hebrews 4:12-14, the Scriptures are written in a particular way that will reveal our attitude toward it's words, toward Jehovah. It's up to us to be indignant at some of the events, or realize we are not given all the information...then adjust our attitude accordingly.

David did have trouble within his family, from that time onward....he accepted it, too. He never stopped turning to Jehovah.

Plus, although Jehovah dignifies our privilege of privacy by not using His powers of foreknowledge in seeing how we individually use our free will, He can see how things turn out; maybe David and Bathsheba's child would have died anyway, from sickness or whatever. We are not given all the details.

As I stated earlier, the Scriptures reveal what is our attitude, in our heart....only we can change it.


What helps me in accepting Jehovah's actions, is knowing what the future Resurrection will accomplish!

Where does the Bible say that resurrection applies to people before Jesus's death? And what about the non-Jews? I don't think you can spin your Bible to cover that.

 

[gnostic]

Tell me something. When someone - child or adult - dies in an accident is that just and wise? How about if someone just dies of old age? Is that ok because it's part of evolution?

Everyone and every life forms born, lived and died, so it is part of life and part of death.

Your questions are about an adult or child, as individuals, either dying naturally, or by accident, or by diseases, or even killed. None of these individuals’ death are by evolution.

You are really clueless about evolution. You don’t understand evolution isn’t about an individual person’s death.

Evolution involved changes in species over time - where “time” are generations, not years -

1. due to mutation,
2. or due to allele frequency (genetic drift),
3. or external forces (climate, geographical locations, terrains, availability of food, etc) upon the environment (hence natural selection),
4. or migration of population of one species intermixing with existing population (gene flow).

Whatever are the mechanisms involved in the changes, it is talking about changes to the population, and not about individual person.

And changes they are talking about, involved passing genetic traits of ancestors to their respective descendants.

The death of one person won’t change the whole population.

That’s where you are seriously misunderstanding evolution.

 

[gnostic]

What would have happened if it had been handled by the Israelite judges? Adultery resulted in the death of both, and if the woman got pregnant, that would have included the unborn child.
Keep in mind James 2:13....David had many times shown mercy to others, and Jehovah kept that in mind when administering punishment.

Sorry, but all the goods David did, don’t wash the blood off his hands for the deliberate engineering the death of another person, which was cold-blooded and premeditated.

The death of David’s son was unnecessary, cruel and undeserved.

13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan said to David, “Now the Lord has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.” 15 Then Nathan went to his house.
The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became very ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child; David fasted, and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 The elders of his house stood beside him, urging him to rise from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead; for they said, “While the child was still alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us; how then can we tell him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, he perceived that the child was dead; and David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.”

Do you see where I highlighted verses 13 & 14?

Do you not have problem with God’s ridiculous judgment and action?

A sin of one person shouldn’t be passed down to a child, but that’s what happened here. God took away David’s sin, and place it on his baby.

Plus, although Jehovah dignifies our privilege of privacy by not using His powers of foreknowledge in seeing how we individually use our free will, He can see how things turn out; maybe David and Bathsheba's child would have died anyway, from sickness or whatever. We are not given all the details.

Here, you are speculating, on the “what if” possibilities.

I don’t think David and Bathsheba are real historical people, and this is a story invented in the late 7th century BCE. And that story are the only information provided.

Such speculations, like yours, have no basis, other than you expressing your opinion on this story.

Opinions are always welcomed, but when your only source to the story, is given in such matter, then opinions that diverge from the story, then it isn’t helpful, and the validity of your speculation is questionable.

 

[nPeace]

No but that goes to show that no one can ever truly be free

I can agree to that, since you used the word truly. I can see you are a deep thinker. That explains a few things about the structure of your earlier questions.
However, where one might think that is a bad thing, to the contrary, it is a good thing.

Not a trick question, but...
Can a slave be free?
Your answer I am going to assume from what you said, is no.

I say yes.
How can a slave be free?
Take this statement for example...
Romans 6:18 .Yes, since you were set free from sin, you became slaves to righteousness. (See also Romans 6:20; 8:2)

Notice, free in one sense, slave in another, but is the slavery good, or bad. Slavery to what is truly right (good), is good. Agreed?
One is a slave to something, regardless.
This is a universal law that no one can escape.
So for example, a person may say they are free of... let's say God, righteousness, etc. etc. What are they a slave of? Something right?

If one is free (in the sense of real freedom. I used the word real, as I am speaking of a greater freedom than normal - a superior freedom), it is because they are bounded by a law.
Notice again how the book of truth presents this fact.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.

When you think about that, really deeply, I don't know about you, but to me it become clear what a profound statement it is.
Freedom (real freedom) only exists where God's spirit is.
If one is separated from God's spirit, they become a slave to something else. If they are bound to God's spirit - I'm going to refer to it as a law of freedom, then they are slaves to that law - a good thing - but free from the other thing that would enslave them - things that are not good.

To show that this is true.
Which would be your choice of good?
A. hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, envy
B. love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.

Do you think most people will pick A?
Well what do you know... The book of truth reveals that the list in B are aspects of the fruitage of God's spirit.
(Galatians 5:19-26)
So freedom - real freedom, allows one to be good - to be truly happy... although being slaves to righteousness; slaves of God.

Some people may doubt this, but God is happy to be bound by his own nature. It is still his own laws.

I guess true happiness would be a choice... where one is happy and sees positivity even when things aren't going their way. I don't know if true happiness can ever be attained but I think nonexistence is possibly the only way to be happy since you won't have any desires, emotions, expectations etc.

You are right - attaining true happiness would be a choice, but that choice depends on whether we choose to be slaves of God, and righteousness, or free of them.
Adam and Eve chose to be free of God, and righteousness. Now look at the world. Does independent from God lead to happiness? To me that answer seems clear.
True happiness though, is attainable.

I think nonexistence is possibly the only way to be happy since you won't have any desires, emotions, expectations etc

Trust me. There are no happy dead people.
You said correctly, "you won't have any desires, emotions, expectations etc". That includes joy, peace, happiness.
People often speak as though the dead are really conscience. They say, "Rest in peace. (RIP)", but we know the dead don't hear, nor are they enjoying peace, but certainly, they are not unhappy anymore.

Jesus likened death to sleep, for the simple reason that he has the power to restore the dead, or release them from death, so it will be like waking someone from sleep.

 

[nPeace]

Sorry, but all the goods David did, don’t wash the blood off his hands for the deliberate engineering the death of another person, which was cold-blooded and premeditated.

The death of David’s son was unnecessary, cruel and undeserved.


Do you see where I highlighted verses 13 & 14?

Do you not have problem with God’s ridiculous judgment and action?

A sin of one person shouldn’t be passed down to a child, but that’s what happened here. God took away David’s sin, and place it on his baby.



Here, you are speculating, on the “what if” possibilities.

I don’t think David and Bathsheba are real historical people, and this is a story invented in the late 7th century BCE. And that story are the only information provided.

Such speculations, like yours, have no basis, other than you expressing your opinion on this story.

Opinions are always welcomed, but when your only source to the story, is given in such matter, then opinions that diverge from the story, then it isn’t helpful, and the validity of your speculation is questionable.

What are your views on Karma?

 

[gnostic]

What are your views on Karma?

I don’t have one. Never given it much thought.

 

[lukethethird]

What are your views on Karma?

About as irrelevant as my thoughts on the fall of Adam.

 

[nPeace]

I don’t have one. Never given it much thought.

There are different views on karma, but some persons feel that certain laws of nature are set, so that a wrong action on the part of someone will bring a negative result.
But you are saying you have no thoughts on this.
Okay, I was just wondering

 

[YoursTrue]

What the Bible says is clear. You are the ones that are trying to change it. But that does not really matter. That is not the only way that you say that God is lying.

And death was already in the world even before they ate the apple, but then that only shows the ignorance of the writers of the myth and adds on to why we know that it was a myth.

How do you know the fruit they were told not to eat was an apple?

 

[YoursTrue]

Thanks for confirming my claim.

Now that you did that are you ready to move on?

I like talking to you, you are funny. So you agree the expression used in such phrases like "in my grandmother's day" is using the word 'day' as more than one day.