Thousands of churches are closing across the U.S.

[PureX]

Social isolation makes it so much easier to behave like a criminal while pretending to be a saint. As we never have to face the consequences of our selfish behavior.

When we have to face the guy we sold that used car to every week in church we'll tend to be a lot more honest with him about it's condition and it's actual value because we know that if we aren't, everyone's going to know it.

Our culture of social isolation is a huge factor in why so many of us are behaving like criminals, in business, toward everyone else. And why so many of us think exploiting each other for as much profit as we can extract is acceptable business behavior. We never have to take accountability for the harm we do to others when we engage in this behavior because we never find ourselves associating with them, again. And neither does anyone else. So there is no "grapevine" through which our selfishness would become exposed.

This is a huge problem in the U. S., and it must also be in other countries, too. We no longer live in small 'villages' that can hold us accountable for our behavior. We live in isolation next door to a thousand other people also living in isolation. Our circle of friends, neighbors, colleagues, and acquaintenances rarely overlap. Who we are in one instance never shows up to define who we are in another. It's a very good way to hide who we are from everyone else, and even from ourselves.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So what we are seeing here is merely the norm. As usual, people prefer private forms of devotion for their more pressing needs and don't particularly enjoy being preached at.

For America it is a new thing that people aren't attending. People were more unchurched during the days of pioneers and westward expansion, but they were still Christian. Today's America is seeing a decline in both church attendance and those who are Christian. In this regard, Euro-Americans have always been largely, heavily and mostly Christian with a strong Protestant slant (it used to be a national trend to hate Catholics).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who we are in one instance never shows up to define who we are in another.

That's just basic human psychology. Everyone behaves different around friends than at work because we know the rules are different. Behave one way at a bar, a different way at a library, and we don't treat our grandparents like we do our siblings. It has nothing to do with any of the things you mentioned but is just how we mostly tend to function as social animals.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are we? Because it's clearly not looking like it. We're becoming dumb animals ripping and tearing at each other for our survival, and for status. I agree that religion has failed us in the face of industrial strength commercialism. But the sense of unity and community that they were able to provide is a severe loss.

No, we aren't becoming dumb animals ripping each other apart.
And why have less religious nations not lost this sense of community? Why is it not the doom and gloom for them that you predict for America?

 

[Sand Dancer]

For America it is a new thing that people aren't attending. People were more unchurched during the days of pioneers and westward expansion, but they were still Christian. Today's America is seeing a decline in both church attendance and those who are Christian. In this regard, Euro-Americans have always been largely, heavily and mostly Christian with a strong Protestant slant (it used to be a national trend to hate Catholics).

I hope this means we can finally catch up with the other developed nations.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Tis music that did it:

 

[Kenny]

I know various religions provide value to some people, and that's perfectly fine as long as everyone is afforded the freedom to live however they want. It's only when any group or groups try to impose their way of life on others or foster hatred against them that problems happen.

Agree totally. However, if you think about it, every law on the books is imposing a way of life. Our laws to not discriminate against race - is correctly imposing a lifestyle on racists. Those in NAMBLA feel like they are being imposed on their lifestyle.

So, laws are necessary but it has a double edged sword IMV

That's true of some people in any group, yes. Are you saying that this applies to my own comments, though? Because I don't see criticism of a subset of churches as hateful. Rather, I find it necessary to push back against certain beliefs and dogmas.

Not at all. You have presented your position nicely. I was thinking about those who are nasty against Christian lifestyles while berating on how nasty Christians are with broad brushstrokes.

You are not like that.

 

[Rival]

The idea that historically people attended church in droves is a fantasy. It is mainly underpinned by Protestant churches because these churches are structured around lay participation. In other words, the service cannot go ahead if no-one attends it, because it is primarily based on preaching and homilising etc. This is why many have the idea of church as a moral arbiter constantly threatening about hell and asking you to pay tithes and whatnot. This resulted during the Protestant Reformation when some (not many by any means) wanted more lay participation in the church.

Prior to this, within what we now call the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church, lay participation was not needed at all. The Mass (it's not a service) was and is based around the Eucharist, which in Catholic theology is a sacrifice and needs only priests and deacons generally to perform it. This alongside the fact that historically and even for around a century after the Protestant Reformation people would not regularly take the Eucharist/Communion and were known only to take it at Easter and sometimes Christmas. In all, historically most people at church were just observers. Nearly all the call and responses were done by the clergy, with the laity only joining in at certain short parts and sometimes even this seems negligible. The purpose of the Mass is the sacrifice and this does not necessitate an audience. Even in the first edition of the Book of Common Prayer, 1549, most of the call and response was still between clergy, not clergy and laity.

Thus, most people historically have attended church irregularly, and more pious Mediaeval and Reformation Era writers regularly complain that on Sundays people are in the tavern or simply lying in bed, or some would even rather work. This alongside the fact that many just lived too far away from a local church.

For centuries the preferred method of worship for lower classes/peasants was in small chapels along roads, in rural areas etc. where they would make offerings to saints, often the Virgin, but also frequently to healing saints for more pressing concerns. They could not read so they preferred statues, pictures/icons, beads, ropes etc. as aids to prayer and devotion. This is still extremely common pretty much wherever one goes.

Thus, the idea of going to church and participating and being severely moralised to is a Protestant innovation generally and not representative of historic church attendance. In England after the Reformation people were fined for not attending church, so obviously this fudged the numbers. The Mediaeval church had no such fine system, albeit long term lack of attendance could be punished.

So what we are seeing here is merely the norm. As usual, people prefer private forms of devotion for their more pressing needs and don't particularly enjoy being preached at.

I would also add to this that many of the wealthier classes had private chapels and their "own" priests/confessors, rather than attending church. They also preferred more private devotion.

As for the lower classes, their form of religion has always been different to that of the learned classes. We find a more localised, folkish, grassroots form of faith; and lest we forget, for much of the Mediaeval and Early Modern period 'religious' referred specifically to monastics, clergy etc.; ordinary people would not have used it for themselves.

Peasant/lower class devotion tended to revolve around:

- Local saints' cults/shrines etc.
- Roadside chapels where they could light vigil candles/tapers etc. and pray mostly privately (there was generally no priest there as these were built by and for locals).
- Pilgrimages, either locally or further afield.
- Holidays (these could be very raucous).
- Family traditions.
- Later in the Medaeval/Renaissance period the set of rosary beads was created and these became popular.
- Various forms of local myth and superstition around places like wells and hills.
- Home shrines, particularly popular in Orthodox countries.

Popular piety has rarely been church focused and this seems universal. People often prefer freer forms of worship alongside church and this is usually their main form of devotion.

 

[Kenny]

The variation doesn't mean that some problems—such as propagation of hatred and misunderstanding of other groups—aren't present in many fundamentalist churches even if they disagree on multiple issues. Some also remained open at the height of the pandemic, refused to observe preventive measures due to denial of science, and contributed to spread of disease and loss of life, which was another major fault.

Actually, I see it different. Remember when you said "imposing on how other people live?" I think that qualifies.

In actuality, those in power denied science while imposing the measure. They denied that it is the elderly and those with compromised constitutions that were at risk. It also denied that facial covers were not enough... as long as you were covered they were at peace when the covering was useless. Every time I get in the car, it is a risk. It denied the freedom of healthy people to go to a restaurant understanding the risk (albeit a minimal risk if you are young and healthy).

Fear is a great seller.

It was controlling and manipulative while suicide increase, mental problems increased, drug addictions increase, education decreased, et al.

 

[Kenny]

He was the source of much of that poison.

I disagree but everyone has their perspectives.

And doesn't matter anyways, according to his book I have done the unforgivable.

Personally, I doubt it very seriously. People don't understand how much love encompasses and how wide the arms of Jesus reached when he was nailed to the cross.

Purely, of course, within the context of my signature.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have found that even those can vary within themselves.

What I was taught, for an education, by Southern Baptists was absolutely appalling. Even the late 90s, for me middle school going into high school, racial segregation was portrayed as normal and right. Nelson Mandela was an evil man and it was wrong for aparthy to end. Women are domestic slaves who exist for her husband's benefit. And everybody who isn't like them goes straight to Hell. Never have I heard other denominations being condemned like I have in a Southern Baptist church.

 

[Kenny]

What I was taught, for an education, by Southern Baptists was absolutely appalling. Even the late 90s, for me middle school going into high school, racial segregation was portrayed as normal and right. Nelson Mandela was an evil man and it was wrong for aparthy to end. Women are domestic slaves who exist for her husband's benefit. And everybody who isn't like them goes straight to Hell. Never have I heard other denominations being condemned like I have in a Southern Baptist church.

Then, apparently, you were not taught right. So, I wouldn't agree that you have committed any unpardonable sin.

Biblically, you don't qualify for that position.

 

[PureX]

No, we aren't becoming dumb animals ripping each other apart.

You have not seen the homeless camps springing up all across the country? While the sales of $60,000 giant sized pickup trucks and luxury cars have hit record highs? Auto makers have stopped producing their more economical vehicles. The rich are on a spending spree.

And why have less religious nations not lost this sense of community?

Many of them still live in small villages, still shop at locally owned merchants, and still see each other on a regular basis. Something the U. S. abandoned long ago in favor of giant "subdivisions" surrounded by giant corporate owned big box and chains stores. All accessible only by car. The U. S. is just one giant vending machine, now. There are no villages or community pubs, or local churches. Just millions of isolated boxes connected up to the internet so we can buy stuff without having to drive somewhere.

Why is it not the doom and gloom for them that you predict for America?

It's happening to them, too. Just not as fast and furious.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I disagree but everyone has their perspectives.

Lets see, calling me an abomination, sentencing me to death, and all the threats of eternal damnation, yeah, the Christian god and his book were indeed like a needle in my vein with an IV bag filling me with poison.

Personally, I doubt it very seriously.

Doubt me that I've done it or doubt your messiah when he described the unforgivable sin?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then, apparently, you were not taught right.

They say the sams about you.

So, I wouldn't agree that you have committed any unpardonable sin.

Then you must not agree with Jesus on everything.

Biblically, you don't qualify for that position.

Again, this is your lord and savior speaking on a sin that is unforgivable according to his own words.

 

[Kenny]

Lets see, calling me an abomination, sentencing me to death, and all the threats of eternal damnation, yeah, the Christian god and his book were indeed like a needle in my vein with an IV bag filling me with poison.

That wasn't the context of what I said.

Doubt me that I've done it or doubt your messiah when he described the unforgivable sin?

doubt you have done it and doubt that he described the unforgivable sin correctly. It sounds like he had a religious spirit, the kind that Jesus fought against.

 

[Kenny]

They say the sams about you.

Then you must not agree with Jesus on everything.

Again, this is your lord and savior speaking on a sin that is unforgivable according to his own words.

Again... a lot of statements but no support.

As one who has ministered for over 30 years and have studied the whole of the message, I am 100% sure you don't qualify.

You see, what you say doesn't fit the message at all. You will have to convince me that you are right.

Personally, in light of my signature, God has already forgiven you and wants to have a full and blessed life.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That wasn't the context of what I said.

You tried to deny the toxic damage your god was doing to me. That's the context.

doubt you have done it

Why?

doubt that he described the unforgivable sin correctly.

So what else did he not describe correctly? Does this mean your god isn't omnipotent?

 

[Kenny]

You tried to deny the toxic damage your god was doing to me. That's the context.

Why?

So what else did he not describe correctly? Does this mean your god isn't omnipotent?

Then that was my fault. Sorry. When you said "he", I thought you meant God. Since you meant the Baptist pastor, I agree.

As a side thought, when I was searching, a Baptist pastor was sharing with me and he said something that made me scratch "Baptist" off the list as I thought, "This guy doesn't know who God is".

But, "why"? God is "omnipotent" and can "omnipotently" forgive through the sacrifice of Jesus. If the list that you gave is what he called "unforgivable" - it can't be found in the Bible.

So, no, I am 100% sure that what he said was religious and you aren't "on the list" of unforgivable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You see, what you say doesn't fit the message at all. You will have to convince me that you are right.

How so very Christian of you to doubt, downplay and deny the happenings, events and experiences of others.
If y'all started listening more--especially to us apostates--your numbers probably wouldn't be dropping like panties in a whorehouse. But, you don't listen, and because you don't people find those like Richard Dawkins who is very eager to hear all about how the Hell Doctrine traumatized us as kids.