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Three Faiths, One God

The Tower of Babel incident shows that God is the author of confusion.

Besides which, does not God work in mysterious ways?
Are not the ways of God unknowable to mere mortal men?
Is God unknowable?

The purpose of God "confusing" them is clearly stated in the text. After the flood God tells Noah to multiply and fill the Earth, but after many generations they decided that they would all gather in one city and build a tower to show their might. This is obviously the exact opposite of what God told them to do, so God made it so that they could no longer understand each other which made them finally decide to start spreading to different parts of the Earth. It's very obvious from the text that purpose of his "confusing" the people had nothing to do with trying to hide the truth from them.
 
This video doesn't seem to be more than an introduction to textual criticism. In fact, he says in the video that his book is nothing new and is just explaining what us "intelligent" people have known for a while in a way that "unintelligent" people can understand. I did find the guy that was suggesting the Bible was altered and that early Christians purposely removed all accounts of Jesus' trip to India where he achieved enlightenment and all of his teachings about reincarnation to be a good laugh, and the two Muslim guys were funny also. For me though, it wasn't anything new. He also fails to mention a few critical details about how textual criticism works. Sure, having more manuscripts means there are more differences among them, but unless all those differences are in the exact same place of the text you can see where it got changed because all the earlier manuscripts, and possibly manuscripts from other languages, all have the same different word, then the correct word is obvious. He proves this himself, as every example he gives he says that critics are able to determine what the original verse actually said. There is a very small portion of the text, in tenths of a percent, that textual critics are uncertain about, and none of which changes the meaning of the text, that Jesus is the way to salvation.
 

McBell

Unbound
The purpose of God "confusing" them is clearly stated in the text. After the flood God tells Noah to multiply and fill the Earth, but after many generations they decided that they would all gather in one city and build a tower to show their might. This is obviously the exact opposite of what God told them to do, so God made it so that they could no longer understand each other which made them finally decide to start spreading to different parts of the Earth. It's very obvious from the text that purpose of his "confusing" the people had nothing to do with trying to hide the truth from them.
So then we are in agreement that God did in fact author confusion at the Tower of Babel?
 

kai

ragamuffin
The purpose of God "confusing" them is clearly stated in the text. After the flood God tells Noah to multiply and fill the Earth, but after many generations they decided that they would all gather in one city and build a tower to show their might. This is obviously the exact opposite of what God told them to do, so God made it so that they could no longer understand each other which made them finally decide to start spreading to different parts of the Earth. It's very obvious from the text that purpose of his "confusing" the people had nothing to do with trying to hide the truth from them.


of course its a metaphor !
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
If we take one or two steps before the three faiths, what do we find?

Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, who preached monotheism, and who is a very important prophet in the three faiths

One more step before that takes us back to prophet Noah, peace be upon him, who again preached monotheism and is recognized in the three faiths

God's Path has always been the path of monotheism

Peace and all the best
 

Yeshua_Lives

Left the Forum
If we take one or two steps before the three faiths, what do we find?

Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, who preached monotheism, and who is a very important prophet in the three faiths

One more step before that takes us back to prophet Noah, peace be upon him, who again preached monotheism and is recognized in the three faiths

God's Path has always been the path of monotheism

Peace and all the best

Abraham. The Father of Three Faiths: Judaism, Christianity, Islam.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This video doesn't seem to be more than an introduction to textual criticism. In fact, he says in the video that his book is nothing new and is just explaining what us "intelligent" people have known for a while in a way that "unintelligent" people can understand. I did find the guy that was suggesting the Bible was altered and that early Christians purposely removed all accounts of Jesus' trip to India where he achieved enlightenment and all of his teachings about reincarnation to be a good laugh, and the two Muslim guys were funny also. For me though, it wasn't anything new. He also fails to mention a few critical details about how textual criticism works. Sure, having more manuscripts means there are more differences among them, but unless all those differences are in the exact same place of the text you can see where it got changed because all the earlier manuscripts, and possibly manuscripts from other languages, all have the same different word, then the correct word is obvious. He proves this himself, as every example he gives he says that critics are able to determine what the original verse actually said. There is a very small portion of the text, in tenths of a percent, that textual critics are uncertain about, and none of which changes the meaning of the text, that Jesus is the way to salvation.

I think you were very selective in what you got out of the video.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Abraham. The Father of Three Faiths: Judaism, Christianity, Islam.

Yes

Followers of the three faiths relate to Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, who was a prophet sent by the same God

Do you know that it was prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, and his son prophet Ishmael, peace be upon him, who rebuilt God's House in Makkah?
 

kai

ragamuffin
Abraham. The Father of Three Faiths: Judaism, Christianity, Islam.
Abraham is the father of Judaism , Christianity was founded in the greater part by St Paul . and rejects the old testament ,Islam was founded by Mohamed and claims Abraham was Islamic but just didn't know it.

lets face facts here Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judaism but reject it and in so doing reject Abraham himself , they have changed Judaism so uniquely that both religions have barely any similarities in it anymore. and are openly hostile to it and each other. it may suit some people to say they are the same god for political or appeasement but all three claim the others to be wrong.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Abraham is the father of Judaism , Christianity was founded in the greater part by St Paul . and rejects the old testament ,Islam was founded by Mohamed and claims Abraham was Islamic but just didn't know it.

lets face facts here Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judaism but reject it and in so doing reject Abraham himself , they have changed Judaism so uniquely that both religions have barely any similarities in it anymore. and are openly hostile to it and each other. it may suit some people to say they are the same god for political or appeasement but all three claim the others to be wrong.

No to each and everyone of your statements.
Christianity arose from Abraham, of course. They do not reject each other None of them claim the others to be wrong.,

Scott

Regards
 

kai

ragamuffin
No to each and everyone of your statements.
Christianity arose from Abraham, of course. They do not reject each other None of them claim the others to be wrong.,

Scott

Regards
how on earth do you come to that conclusion, explain it to me
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
how on earth do you come to that conclusion, explain it to me

For it to be true that all of them reject each other it would have to be true that Islam rejects Christianity and Christ. It does not. For it to be true Christianity would have to reject Moses--it does not. Judaism would have to reject Abraham--it does not. There are no followers of Abraham alone to my knowledge.

What you are guilty of here is positing a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument which is fallacious--to the very least it is a gross over generalization.

Also the Baha`i Faith embraces, Muhammed, Christ, Moses and Abraham.
In math terms you are assuming that such rejection iws a distributive property. It's not.

Regards,
Scott
 

kai

ragamuffin
For it to be true that all of them reject each other it would have to be true that Islam rejects Christianity and Christ. It does not. For it to be true Christianity would have to reject Moses--it does not. Judaism would have to reject Abraham--it does not. There are no followers of Abraham alone to my knowledge.islam does reject the very basis of christianity,christianity does not follow the old testement they have a new one, and the followers of abraham are jews he is the first patriarch of the jewish people

What you are guilty of here is positing a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument which is fallacious--to the very least it is a gross over generalization. cant you speak english when you argue with me.:)

Also the Baha`i Faith embraces, Muhammed, Christ, Moses and Abraham.
In math terms you are assuming that such rejection iws a distributive property. It's not.

Regards,
Scott
i am well aware the baha'i embrace all those that reject them , ("in maths terms" have you been at the brandy)
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Distributive property in math is the function that it does not matter which way you add or multiply terms in order. 1+2+3=6, even if you add it up 3+2+1, or 2+1+3 the answer is always six.

This does not apply in subtracftion or division 3 divided by 2 = 1.5, but 2 divided by 3= 6.66666667.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc means "after this therefore because of this". Just because one thing happens after another does not make the first thing the cause of the second.
If you're going to try to argue in a classical mode, learn some terms.

For your original statement to be true, Christians would have to reject Moses. That is not the fact. You won't find any Christian who says Moses is a false prophet. Just because you think they should does not make it so.

Regards,
Scott
 

kai

ragamuffin
Distributive property in math is the function that it does not matter which way you add or multiply terms in order. 1+2+3=6, even if you add it up 3+2+1, or 2+1+3 the answer is always six.

This does not apply in subtracftion or division 3 divided by 2 = 1.5, but 2 divided by 3= 6.66666667. wow thanks for that

Post hoc ergo propter hoc means "after this therefore because of this". Just because one thing happens after another does not make the first thing the cause of the second. not my argument in fact its yours isnt it, its baha'i
If you're going to try to argue in a classical mode, learn some terms. i argue in straight to the point english

For your original statement to be true, Christians would have to reject Moses. That is not the fact. You won't find any Christian who says Moses is a false prophet. Just because you think they should does not make it so. first off christians no longer follow the old testement they follow the new testement they no longer have to follow the law, The New Testament is a central element ofchristianity, According to Christian belief, salvation is made possible by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, which in the context of salvation is referred to as the "atonement." For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. salvation is achieved by beleif in jesus christ

Regards,
Scott
now heres the thing scott its totally different in Islam, salvation is achieved by works ,In Islam, forgiveness is based on a combination of Allah's grace and the Muslim's works. On the Day of Judgment, if a Muslim's good works outweigh his bad ones, and if Allah so wills it, he may be forgiven of all his sins and then enter into paradise. Therefore, Islam is a religion of salvation by works because it combines man's works with Allah's grace. Consider the following verses from the Qur'an.


  • "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).
  • "And He answers those who believe and do good deeds, and gives them more out of His grace; and (as for) the unbelievers, they shall have a severe punishment," (42:26, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).
  • "O you who believe! If you are careful of (your duty to) Allah, He will grant you a distinction and do away with your evils and forgive you; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace," (8:29,, trans. by M.H. Shakir).
as for jews its to follow the law, the same law christians no longer hold to because of their new testement. According to traditional Jewish belief, the God who created the world established a
covenant with the Isralites and revealed his laws and commandments to moses on mount sinai in the form of theTorah, and the Jewish people are the descendants of the Israelites. The traditional practice of Judaism revolves around study and the observance of God's laws and commandments as written in the Torah and expounded in the talmud.

my theory scott is that they may have a common conception of a one true god (and with christians thats a matter of opinion) but it doesnt necessarily mean the same one the evidence for me is crucial, the way to salvation is totally different with all three, prayer is totally different in all three. the law is now totally different in all three.
and a footnote
shia beleive jesus will come back with the mahdi and all jews will be killed,
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Kai,

Muhammed states flatly in the Qur'an that it is JESUS Who will come to earth to judge the quick and the dead on Judgement day. Therefore, regardless of how Christians refuse to esteem Muhammed, Muhammed does indeed esteem Jesus.

Therefore your whole argument is worth squat. Its ionternally inconsisient, it is obviously flawed and you cling to it in spite of its absurdity.

You are begging the question. I suggest you look that up I'll do it for you even:

"
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this). This is the fallacy of assuming that A caused B simply because A happened prior to B. A favorite example: "Most rapists read pornography when they were teenagers; obviously, pornography causes violence toward women." The conclusion is invalid, because there can be a correlation between two phenomena without one causing the other. Often, this is because both phenomena may be linked to the same cause. In the example given, it is possible that some psychological factor -- say, a frustrated sex drive -- might cause both a tendency toward sexual violence and a desire for pornographic material, in which case the pornography would not be the true cause of the violence. "


Cum hoc ergo propter hoc (with this, therefore because of this). This is the familiar fallacy of mistaking correlation for causation -- i.e., thinking that because two things occur simultaneously, one must be a cause of the other. A popular example of this fallacy is the argument that "President Clinton has great economic policies; just look at how well the economy is doing while he's in office!" The problem here is that two things may happen at the same time merely by coincidence (e.g., the President may have a negligible effect on the economy, and the real driving force is technological growth), or the causative link between one thing and another may be lagged in time (e.g., the current economy's health is determined by the actions of previous presidents), or the two things may be unconnected to each other but related to a common cause (e.g., downsizing upset a lot of voters, causing them to elect a new president just before the economy began to benefit from the downsizing). It is always fallacious to suppose that there is a causative link between two things simply because they coexist. But a correlation is usually considered acceptable supporting evidence for theories that argue for a causative link between two things. For instance, some economic theories suggest that substantially reducing the federal budget deficit should cause the economy to do better (loosely speaking), so the coincidence of deficit reductions under Clinton and the economy's relative health might be taken as evidence in favor of those economic theories. In debate rounds, what this means is that it is acceptable to demonstrate a correlation between two phenomenon and to say one caused the other if you can also come up with convincing reasons why the correlation is no accident.


Complex question. A complex question is a question that implicitly assumes something to be true by its construction, such as "Have you stopped beating your wife?" A question like this is fallacious only if the thing presumed true (in this case, that you beat your wife) has not been established. Complex questions are a well established and time-honored practice in debate, although they are rarely so bald-faced as the example just given. Complex questions usually appear in cross-examination or points of information when the questioner wants the questionee to inadvertently admit something that she might not admit if asked directly. For instance, one might say, "Inasmuch as the majority of black Americans live in poverty, do you really think that self-help within the black community is sufficient to address their problems?" Of course, the introductory clause about the majority of black Americans living in poverty may not be true (in fact, it is false), but an unwary debater might not think quickly enough to notice that the stowaway statement is questionable. This is a sneaky tactic, but debate is sometimes a sneaky business. You wouldn't want to put a question like that in your master's thesis, but it might work in a debate. But be careful -- if you try to pull a fast one on someone who is alert enough to catch you, you'll look stupid. "The assumption behind your question is simply false. The majority of blacks do not live in poverty. Get your facts straight before you interrupt me again!"


Circulus in demonstrando (circular argument). Circular argumentation occurs when someone uses what they are trying to prove as part of the proof of that thing. Here is one of my favorite examples (in pared down form): "Marijuana is illegal in every state in the nation. And we all know that you shouldn't violate the law. Since smoking pot is illegal, you shouldn't smoke pot. And since you shouldn't smoke pot, it is the duty of the government to stop people from smoking it, which is why marijuana is illegal!" Circular arguments appear a lot in debate, but they are not always so easy to spot as the example above. They are always illegitimate, though, and pointing them out in a debate round looks really good if you can do it. The best strategy for pointing out a circular argument is to make sure you can state clearly the proposition being proven, and then pinpoint where that proposition appears in the proof. A good summing up statement is, "In other words, they are trying to tell us that X is true because X is true! But they have yet to tell us why it's true."

These and more can be found at:
Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate

Heck, I used to judge and coach scholastic debate.

Regards,
Scott
 

kai

ragamuffin
a waste of a good opportunity scott go back to judging scholastic debate , and study up on Christianity, Islam and Judaism. i am arguing pure religious belief here. so Mohamed holds Isa in esteem so what! he doesn't think he is god or the son of god. remember the god of Islam is Allah is One,. the Eternal God. He begot none, nor was He begotten

my closing statement is that all three religions are so fundamentally different in the achievement of salvation from their god that it can only mean they are different gods . the prosecution rests

regards KAI
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
a waste of a good opportunity scott go back to judging scholastic debate , and study up on Christianity, Islam and Judaism. i am arguing pure religious belief here. so Mohamed holds Isa in esteem so what! he doesn't think he is god or the son of god. remember the god of Islam is Allah is One,. the Eternal God. He begot none, nor was He begotten

my closing statement is that all three religions are so fundamentally different in the achievement of salvation from their god that it can only mean they are different gods . the prosecution rests

regards KAI

The prosecution loses. You aren't arguing religious belief at all, because you have no respect for the fact that belief varies from follower to follower.

Judaism establishes the Oneness of God, not Christianity or Islam. Jesus clearly establishes that God and Christ are not equals.

Perhaps you should read about strawmen, too.

That's before the internet made it easy to gain superficial understandings.

I've been actively studying Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha`i Faith for more than 35 years.

Regards,
Scott
 

kai

ragamuffin
The prosecution loses. You aren't arguing religious belief at all, because you have no respect for the fact that belief varies from follower to follower.
were talking gods here not folowers gods with different needs and requirements.
Judaism establishes the Oneness of God, not Christianity or Islam. Jesus clearly establishes that God and Christ are not equals.
islam does not establish the oneness of god are you serious?
Perhaps you should read about strawmen, too.

That's before the internet made it easy to gain superficial understandings.

I've been actively studying Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha`i Faith for more than 35 years.

Regards,
Scott


me too, funny how you don't know the difference ,is it because Baha'i faith would shatter if the revelation was not continuous and the three faiths were bowing down to different entities, and different they are, so different it wouldn't take 35 years to notice , one god has a son , the other god doesn't, and the Jews carry on as if none of it happened still following the law
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
me too, funny how you don't know the difference ,is it because Baha'i faith would shatter if the revelation was not continuous and the three faiths were bowing down to different entities, and different they are, so different it wouldn't take 35 years to notice , one god has a son , the other god doesn't, and the Jews carry on as if none of it happened still following the law

I can specify that Jesus is the son of God, also the Son of Man. That in no way opposes the Islamic or Judaic contention that God has no equals or partners.

"Begotten" in Greek translates as "generated". Zygotes are not "generated".

Regards,

Scott
 
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