"Three Simple Problems With Prayer"

[LightofTruth]

I think prayer can sometimes have a placebo effect, apart from that it falls on deaf ears as it is highly unlikely any god exists.

A trinitarian could hardly expect his prayers to be heard because he doesn't recognize the God who says, "I alone am God"

 

[stvdv]

"Three Simple Problems With Prayer"

Hypothetical:
1) God exists (having omniscience/omnipresence/omnipotence at His disposal) + created all this

1. Do you really have to ask?​

The Masters say there is no need to ask IF there is a need. Everything is known already.
But they also declare that praying might put you in the right "mind". Turning inward does the trick.

2. Doesn’t God Already Have Plan?​

My Master used to ask the question "Do you know how to make God laugh?" ... Tell Him your plan
Now here they ask "Doesn’t God Already Have Plan" ... They might make God laugh even harder

3 Where’s the Evidence?​

In one's heart

Some people experience good things for good reasons, bad reasons, or no reasons, while others experience bad things for bad reasons, good reasons, or no reasons. Accept reality. Separate fact from fantasy. See life with clear eyes.

Makes sense to me. Though some people's fantasies might be my reality and v.v.

All stories of prayer working are purely anecdotal. Sometimes inexplicable things happen. Usually they don
’t. Sometimes people miraculously recover. Usually they don’t. Sometimes people survive dangerous, horrific ordeals by the slimmest of chances. But most don’t. For every sole survivor of a plane crash, there were hundreds who died. The universe is permeated by things like probability, odds, chance, luck, misfortune, and a whole heap of uncontrollability.

So, it seems the writer is just telling us, that he/she never had a "Divine experience" or a "Divine Revelation".

Naturally, when people find themselves in hopeless situations, or when they feel powerless, or when they are trapped in circumstances beyond their control, or when they just need a sense of connection to something bigger, more powerful, and more loving than what they can find elsewhere, prayer is an understandable option.

Yes, even the Scriptures declare that "bad stuff happening to you" is a blessing in disguise. Without it, one would never start the Spiritual Quest.

It can be calming, it can be comforting, it can make someone feel like maybe — just maybe — they can magically alter the course of events affecting them or their loved ones.

Again, the writer never seems to have experienced "real magic". Feels like belittling even the experience of others. Maybe even jealous about it.

But that doesn’t erase the logical contradictions and immoral implications of petitionary prayer."

"logical contradictions" is already a contradiction, when speaking about prayer (spirituality). When do these people get this, I wonder?
"immoral implications of petitionary prayer." .... again full of judgments ...
People scream all they "Freedom of Speech" .. "Freedom of Religion" ... "Freedom to do whatever I like"
And there they come ... BUT NO FREEDOM OF PRAYER ... now suddenly they add the word "immoral implications" before prayer

Thoughts?

Strange indeed. Most strange to me, is that other people worry so much about how other people fill their thoughts even (as in prayer)
Do they have nothing better to do then keeping themselves busy, with what other people think or believe?
(of course when thoughts become violent actions, then naturally be on high alert ... not about praying IMO)

That pops the question ... Why would people get so upset, about what/how others believe?
Would be better and more constructive if they did some major introspection
Maybe some deep down jealousy, or anger or ....?

 

[Mock Turtle]

If one assumes -- as does Zuckerman -- that the purpose of prayer is to beseech the gods for divine intervention, then Zuckerman's three criticisms are a good start.

However, I find it curious that Zuckerman is both a professor and -- seemingly -- knows so little about prayer that he assumes the sole and only reason anyone ever prays is to beseech the gods for divine intervention. In other words, he would have us believe he is a professor who knows no more about prayer than an Evangelical preacher!

Come on, is Zuckerman a real person? Or is he just some sort of internet fiction? I studied Comparative Religion at the university level. There were no professors so poorly informed that they knew no more about prayer than your typical Evangelical preacher. None.

Perhaps prayer is simply a means to keep the religious mind occupied with that which will tend to keep them on the path - no more and no less. That is, a mantra to ensure their faithfulness? Three or more times a day gratefully welcomed.

Especially when it appears to have no other value (according to quite a lot of scientific evidence) other than for the prayer.

 

[JJ50]

A trinitarian could hardly expect his prayers to be heard because he doesn't recognize the God who says, "I alone am God"

Yeh right. That god would have its stupid head well up its rear end if it made such a claim.

 

[dybmh]

@Skwim,

In the real world, I find it highly unlikely that a religious parent would do nothing to help their child aside from prayer. If they have access to 911, they would be praying while calling for help.

That said:

1. Do you really have to ask?

There's really just 2 types of prayer. Improvisational prayer and Ritualized prayer.

Ritualized prayer is required in Abrahamic beliefs. The oldest reference to the commandment to pray comes from the famous verse in Deut 6:5. Loving God with "All your heart", is often understood to be the act of praying.

Improvisational prayer? I don't think it's needed, especially in the context of the examples provided. I think it would be an automatic reflex for a religious person who is reacting to an emergency situation. But I think it would happen *while* they were doing other things to help, not instead of doing other things to help.

The example "There’s an old lady who lives next door to you, alone. She’s very frail. One day, during winter, the power in your neighborhood goes out. There’s no electricity for heat...." is a little silly, IMO. God, here, is being compared to a person who has the ability to chop fire wood for an old women but chooses not to unless she prays for help. Once God becomes compared to a person, it's easy to rationalize God's slow response to a power outage. "God is busy. 'Lots of plants, animals, and humans to take care of..."

Is God cruel for allowing the suffering in the first place? As I said before, it's impossible to tell if God is cruel based on this.

2. Doesn’t God Already Have Plan?

I think that @robocop (actually) is right. Prayer, in this context, would be part of the plan. The choice: "whether or not to pray" is predetermined. The choice is part of the plan. That's freewill. In theory, from God's perspective: nothing changes. The choice was always given. But from our perspective, it's a choice; so, it could go either way.

3. Where’s the Evidence?

Honestly, I think praying with a specific purpose in mind is a very bad idea.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Did you just hear what you said? In effect, Jose, you are admitting Zuckerman is baby food. He's "for young people", as you put it.

This isn't, at all, what was said, and I am a bit perplexed here, @Sunstone. What was said could have been applied to ANYONE who comes to a religious "officer" and asks such questions. If the person is simply told that the questions are "petty" or "childish" - AND NO ANSWERS ARE FORTHCOMING - then I would not, in any way, hold it against the person doing the asking to just turn around and forget the entire church/belief-system/etc. that holds such a ridiculously inane and IMMATURE position. If you can't provide direct rationalizations and valid reasons for the things you are instructing people to engage in, then you have failed. It's exactly like a foolish parent using the rationale "You're under my house, you live by my rules." Without any further explanation, that's just dictatorship, and should rightly be interpreted as such. If you can't give your kids the valid reasons behind your dictates for them, then that is tacit admittance THAT YOU HAVE NONE. At least, that's what those you're instructing may as well conclude.

And I would agree with you except that he is a bit too incompetent even for that. After all, he seems actually unaware that prayers serve more functions than just the one he attacks. Is an ignoramus someone you want teaching young people?

You keep saying there are all these "other functions" of prayer... but have not yet listed any of them. So... what are they? Do you have them handy? Are they "complicated?" I'd like to see the list. I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't know them. Although it sounds as though you perhaps think I should be? Ashamed that is. At any rate, good luck having that opinion go anywhere. Please understand that your attempts to shame don't have to mean anything to anyone.

 

[Sunstone]

Jeebers, I feel like I just told a bunch of folks there's more to math than arithmetic only to be met by jaw gaping disbelief. Go do some googling, folks. You will only value the truth if you have to work for it. So you do the googling, not me.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Jeebers, I feel like I just told a bunch of folks there's more to math than arithmetic only to be met by jaw gaping disbelief. Go do some googling, folks. You will only value the truth if you have to work for it. So you do the googling, not me.

Did some Googling. There are all kinds of lists, but they don't seem very similar:

Seven types of prayer:

• •Communion (All day all the time)
• •Supplication (Lifting up your needs)
• •Intercession (On behalf of others)
• •Spiritual Warfare — There are two types: Dealing with yourself (Your mind is the battlefield) & (Repentance and Forgiveness); Dealing with Satan and demons (Putting on the Full Armor) & (Binding & Loosing)
• Prayers of Agreement (Corporate Prayer)
• Watch & Pray (Continual State of Awareness as a Watchman on the Wall)
• Prayers of Thanksgiving (Count your Blessings name them one by one)

Maybe this list is more correct?

4 Functions of Prayer:

• A Visible Demonstration of Our Union with Christ
• Unites Christians to One Another
• Protects Christians from Satan and Sin
• A Catalyst for Kingdom Building

I tried looking up "scholarly articles on prayer" and got back a bunch of results about the efficacy of prayer for things like patient healing, etc. Which, quite honestly, no one is talking about in this thread. I don't think a single person is questioning whether or not prayer actually has any demonstrable effect on people - like calming/relaxing or giving positive outlook and thereby potentially releasing positive bodily responses. No one is questioning that. In fact, the guy quoted in the OP even hints at it. What's being questioned is the correlation that the explained/assumed supernatural side of prayer has with REALITY. That's all. Perhaps you are getting this twisted a bit?

I did find this list to be somewhat more detached from a particular "religion" (A LOT of stuff comes up that is specifically from the viewpoint of particular religions):

1. We can use prayer as a way of opening our hearts to God, not as a being living in an extra-dimensional heaven, but as the wellspring of creative energy within us and the universe. By quieting our minds, we can open ourselves to experience this divine ground directly. This experience may even lead us to new conceptions of our place in the universe and give us a way of transcending our own suffering. When bad things happen to us and our loved ones, we can find comfort in prayer that God is with us always, not sitting in judgement of us up in the sky, nor are we pawns in a cosmic chess game made to suffer according to some divine plan.

2. We can use prayer to center ourselves, to accept who we are, and to become more present and aware. Various forms of meditation and centering prayers fall under this category and are practiced across religious traditions. Unlike intercessionary prayer, contemplative practices have been shown to have significant medical benefits to its practitioners. (See e.g. Harvard Medical School’s Herbert Benson: stress, depression and even many physical diseases are positively affected by meditation and prayer).

3. We can use prayer as a way of expressing thanks. We can recognize that we are not independent, but dependent creatures, and be thankful for the blessings we have. Through thanksgiving we can begin to realize that we have enough, and that our societal pressure to always want more (money, power, sex, material items, etc.) will never bring true happiness.

4. We can use prayer as a method of forgiveness for both the things we have done in our lives and for the wrongs we feel have been committed against us. Many psychologists would say that healing cannot happen without forgiveness.

5. We can use prayer to connect with others. We may pray for someone in trouble and wish them well, without the expectation that a supernatural intervention will make this so. Instead, the prayer for others may be about connecting with what that person is going through, with becoming empathetic with their experiences, and with expressing compassion. This connection with others will be strengthened as we realize that God who is the spark of our being, is also the spark of theirs.

I bolded some particular words and phrases. The ones in the first paragraph because they are not verifiable - that point is merely making claims that cannot justifiably be supported - like assuming that God exists, and that we can, in fact, interact with some kind of "divine ground." There may simply not be such a thing.

The other things I bolded are mostly just evidence that what people are calling "prayer" in these instances is really just a stand-in for some other activity. Like "accepting who we are" or "expressing thanks" or "forgiving" or "connecting with others." This is somewhat problematic, because one can't be sure whether it is the prayer itself that is important in these instances, or if instead it is the ACT that is important. That is, does it matter that the "requesting forgiveness" is done in prayer, or is the act of being/feeling forgiven what is more important? It would seem that prayer is just a vehicle in this way. Like if I said that my car was of utmost importance to my trip to a special hospital that can heal some rare condition that I have - even over the healing of the condition itself - OR (heaven forbid) I even credit my car with the treatment of my rare condition! There are OTHER ways to get places - so the car is not so important as the trip itself or the treatment, obviously. So I feel the point can only really be made that the prayer facilitates people's partaking in these other things - they aren't really functions of the prayer itself. But that is at least one other thing - it facilitates other activities, and gets people to "feel" what they want to be felt, even if nothing is really changing or happening or being done with the prayer.

Oh, and you can say "jeebers" all you want... I still don't feel a lick of shame. Maybe try again some other way? We can see if it matters then.

 

[Jose Fly]

Jeebers, I feel like I just told a bunch of folks there's more to math than arithmetic only to be met by jaw gaping disbelief. Go do some googling, folks. You will only value the truth if you have to work for it. So you do the googling, not me.

Dodge.

 

[1213]

.

1. Do you really have to ask?

2. Doesn’t God Already Have Plan?​

3. Where’s the Evidence?​

.​

My answers are:

1. I think it is polite to wait that other person asks. I believe God doesn’t want to be intruder to someone’s life who doesn’t want and need God.

2. I believe God has a plan and it is for example to ask people prayers.

3. Evidence? I think that is interesting question. Bible tells that anyone who ask wisdom/understanding from God, will get it. When I was young, I prayed that God would give me wisdom and understanding. Now, could we prove it happened, is there be any evidence for that? I don’t think there will ever be enough evidence for those who don’t want to believe.

 

[Kenny]

Thoughts?

it looked like he created his own viewpoints to play around with it.

Very entertaining!

PS.. I don't think the prayers will affect him in any way

 

[BilliardsBall]

.

"By Phil Zuckerman: professor of sociology and secular studies at Pitzer College.

Last week, I got a call from one of my cousins. A well-respected rheumatologist with a jocular edge, she is a devout Catholic who finds enormous comfort and inspiration in her faith. She called to see if I would be willing to let four nuns pray on my behalf for thirty days if it just might change my life for the better? It was, she explained, all for love.

Sure, I said. Why not? If four nuns want to pray for my well-being, that’s fine with me.

My cousin’s belief in the positive power of prayer is common. Millions of Americans — and hundreds of millions of other people around the world — pray all the time. Indeed, prayer is one thing that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Rajneeshees, Hindus, Mormons, Sikhs, and worshippers of Viracocha, Perkūnas, and Tāne all have in common.

What is prayer, exactly? Simple: It is mentally asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something. It is sending heartfelt, mind-powered texts to a God. Sometimes it requires a certain ritual, sometimes it involves specific hand motions, often it comes with closed eyes or furrowed brows, occasionally it is aided by deep concentration or the sacrifice of an animal, but in the end, it all boils down to the same thing: earnestly petitioning a God to grant a wish, respond to a need, fulfill a request, or offer help.

1. Do you really have to ask?​

Imagine you have taken your daughter to a skateboarding park. While there, she falls and hits her head. There’s blood. She’s crying. But you just sit there, doing nothing. You don’t go to her, you don’t put ice on her injury, you don’t call 9-1-1. Some other adult rushes to help your daughter, and when she finds out you are her parent, asks you, “Why didn’t you help your daughter?”

And you reply, “Well, she didn’t ask.”

Pretty awful response, right? I mean, you were there, you saw what happened, and you had the power to come to your daughter’s aid — but you didn’t simply because she didn’t outright ask you for help? Such inaction isn’t just immoral; we’d call it irresponsible parenting. If your child is suffering and you know it and you have the power to do something about it, you do what you can. Such loving help should never be contingent upon an explicit or even implicit request.

Or consider this scenario: There’s an old lady who lives next door to you, alone. She’s very frail. One day, during winter, the power in your neighborhood goes out. There’s no electricity for heat. You go out to chop some wood to build a fire in your fireplace. Now, you could also build a fire in your old neighbor’s fireplace. But you don’t provide her with any wood and you don’t make sure she is warm because, well, she hasn’t asked. So you’ll just let her freeze.

Again, awful, right? Maybe she didn’t ask you to build a fire because she’s too embarrassed to ask for help. Maybe she doesn’t want to be burden. Maybe she’s too weak. But it doesn’t really matter. Your assistance shouldn’t require or depend on her asking. Knowing she is in need, you should make sure she is warm, whether she asks or not.

And, thus, we come to the first problem of prayer: Why do you even have to ask God for help? Doesn’t God already know you have cancer, or that you are unhappy at your job, or that your spouse has a drinking problem, or that you can’t pay the rent, or that there is a drought, or that a war is causing all kinds of suffering? The idea that God would only take action when and if asked is deeply problematic. It suggests that God is either not all-knowing (since He doesn’t know things unless you tell Him via prayer) or He is immoral (since He only helps those in need if asked).

If there is a God who loves you and cares for you, surely this God wouldn’t require a mental email request before helping you out.

2. Doesn’t God Already Have Plan?​

Once I was teaching a class at night in a neighboring town. The only route home was a road with traffic lights at every intersection, set to a timer. If you got the green light at just the right time, then you got a green light at every intersection, all the way, and the drive home was quick and smooth. But if you got at a red light early on, then you would get stuck with red lights at every intersection, making the ride home much longer.

So, this one night, I decided to pray for green lights all the way home. I picked Pan, the goat-god, as my deity of choice. I prayed soulfully and hard. And then, at the very first intersection, I got a red light. Damn! Pan didn’t answer my prayer! But before I gave up on Pan’s beneficent might, I quickly reckoned: “Hey, maybe I didn’t get the green light because Pan knows that two miles ahead there is a drunk driver, and if I had gotten the green lights, I would’ve been hit by him. Pan put a red light up to save me from that accident. He knew best!”

In other words: My prayer for green lights wasn’t answered the way I wanted, but that’s because Pan had a plan. Being all-wise and all-loving, Pan knew what was in my best interests at that moment.

This little experiment taught me so much about the very nature of prayer: It’s a self-contradicting heads-I-win-tails-you-lose phenomenon. It works like this: People ask God for things. If they get them, it is proof that prayer works! If they don’t get them… it is still proof that prayer works! It just means that God has answered their prayer in a different way. And that’s because God knows better. He has a plan. When He closes a door, He always opens a window. Or a drainage pipe. But if that is truly the case — that God has a plan — then why bother praying in the first place? Why not just “let go and let God”?

If God is in control of everything, and God knows what is best for you, then praying is pointless.

3. Where’s the Evidence?​

All stories of prayer working are purely anecdotal. Sometimes inexplicable things happen. Usually they don’t. Sometimes people miraculously recover. Usually they don’t. Sometimes people survive dangerous, horrific ordeals by the slimmest of chances. But most don’t. For every sole survivor of a plane crash, there were hundreds who died. The universe is permeated by things like probability, odds, chance, luck, misfortune, and a whole heap of uncontrollability. Some people experience good things for good reasons, bad reasons, or no reasons, while others experience bad things for bad reasons, good reasons, or no reasons. Accept reality. Separate fact from fantasy. See life with clear eyes.

Naturally, when people find themselves in hopeless situations, or when they feel powerless, or when they are trapped in circumstances beyond their control, or when they just need a sense of connection to something bigger, more powerful, and more loving than what they can find elsewhere, prayer is an understandable option. It can be calming, it can be comforting, it can make someone feel like maybe — just maybe — they can magically alter the course of events affecting them or their loved ones.

But that doesn’t erase the logical contradictions and immoral implications of petitionary prayer."
source
​

Thoughts?

.​

1) You don't have to ask
2) God has plans
3) EMPTY TOMB, empty head of atheist RF trolls...

 

[Orbit]

If one assumes -- as does Zuckerman -- that the purpose of prayer is to beseech the gods for divine intervention, then Zuckerman's three criticisms are a good start.

However, I find it curious that Zuckerman is both a professor and -- seemingly -- knows so little about prayer that he assumes the sole and only reason anyone ever prays is to beseech the gods for divine intervention. In other words, he would have us believe he is a professor who knows no more about prayer than an Evangelical preacher!

Come on, is Zuckerman a real person? Or is he just some sort of internet fiction? I studied Comparative Religion at the university level. There were no professors so poorly informed that they knew no more about prayer than your typical Evangelical preacher. None.

Zuckerman is a bona fide sociologist of religion, and published a book called Faith No More which consisted of many, many interviews with people who left the faith. I think his definition of prayer exactly describes how most Americans do see prayer. How do you think the average person sees it?

 

[Sunstone]

Zuckerman is a bona fide sociologist of religion, and published a book called Faith No More which consisted of many, many interviews with people who left the faith. I think his definition of prayer exactly describes how most Americans do see prayer. How do you think the average person sees it?

It rather shames me that I must point out the obvious here, but...

Here is Zuckerman as quoted in the OP:

"What is prayer, exactly? Simple: It is mentally asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something. It is sending heartfelt, mind-powered texts to a God. Sometimes it requires a certain ritual, sometimes it involves specific hand motions, often it comes with closed eyes or furrowed brows, occasionally it is aided by deep concentration or the sacrifice of an animal, but in the end, it all boils down to the same thing: earnestly petitioning a God to grant a wish, respond to a need, fulfill a request, or offer help."​

Now I have two questions for you. Both questions have objective answers. Here's the first question:

Is or is not Zuckerman in essence defining the purpose of all prayer as beseeching god to intervene on one's behalf? (Yes he is, apparently because he reasons that if the majority of people believe the purpose of prayer is X, then the purpose of all prayer is X.)

Is or is not Zuckerman speaking as a scientist in the quoted material? (No he is not -- unless scientists nowadays speak in mildly inflammatory language.)

Now, I genuinely and honestly believe you are an intelligent person. Thus I will not insult you by explicitly drawing the obvious conclusion about Zuckerman's competence and professionalism from those two facts. Instead, I will allow you to arrive at that conclusion yourself.

 

[Thief]

How do you think the average person sees it?

my answer to that....

a sticky note on God's message board

 

[Ponder This]

What is prayer, exactly? Simple: It is mentally asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something. It is sending heartfelt, mind-powered texts to a God. Sometimes it requires a certain ritual, sometimes it involves specific hand motions, often it comes with closed eyes or furrowed brows, occasionally it is aided by deep concentration or the sacrifice of an animal, but in the end, it all boils down to the same thing: earnestly petitioning a God to grant a wish, respond to a need, fulfill a request, or offer help.

Maybe prayer isn't about asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something.

 

[Thief]

Maybe prayer isn't about asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something.

indeed....

maybe it's more like.....may the Force be with you

still.....
you would be calling upon Something Greater than yourself

 

[whirlingmerc]

.

"By Phil Zuckerman: professor of sociology and secular studies at Pitzer College.

Last week, I got a call from one of my cousins. A well-respected rheumatologist with a jocular edge, she is a devout Catholic who finds enormous comfort and inspiration in her faith. She called to see if I would be willing to let four nuns pray on my behalf for thirty days if it just might change my life for the better? It was, she explained, all for love.

Sure, I said. Why not? If four nuns want to pray for my well-being, that’s fine with me.

My cousin’s belief in the positive power of prayer is common. Millions of Americans — and hundreds of millions of other people around the world — pray all the time. Indeed, prayer is one thing that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Rajneeshees, Hindus, Mormons, Sikhs, and worshippers of Viracocha, Perkūnas, and Tāne all have in common.

What is prayer, exactly? Simple: It is mentally asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something. It is sending heartfelt, mind-powered texts to a God. Sometimes it requires a certain ritual, sometimes it involves specific hand motions, often it comes with closed eyes or furrowed brows, occasionally it is aided by deep concentration or the sacrifice of an animal, but in the end, it all boils down to the same thing: earnestly petitioning a God to grant a wish, respond to a need, fulfill a request, or offer help.

1. Do you really have to ask?​

Imagine you have taken your daughter to a skateboarding park. While there, she falls and hits her head. There’s blood. She’s crying. But you just sit there, doing nothing. You don’t go to her, you don’t put ice on her injury, you don’t call 9-1-1. Some other adult rushes to help your daughter, and when she finds out you are her parent, asks you, “Why didn’t you help your daughter?”

And you reply, “Well, she didn’t ask.”

Pretty awful response, right? I mean, you were there, you saw what happened, and you had the power to come to your daughter’s aid — but you didn’t simply because she didn’t outright ask you for help? Such inaction isn’t just immoral; we’d call it irresponsible parenting. If your child is suffering and you know it and you have the power to do something about it, you do what you can. Such loving help should never be contingent upon an explicit or even implicit request.

Or consider this scenario: There’s an old lady who lives next door to you, alone. She’s very frail. One day, during winter, the power in your neighborhood goes out. There’s no electricity for heat. You go out to chop some wood to build a fire in your fireplace. Now, you could also build a fire in your old neighbor’s fireplace. But you don’t provide her with any wood and you don’t make sure she is warm because, well, she hasn’t asked. So you’ll just let her freeze.

Again, awful, right? Maybe she didn’t ask you to build a fire because she’s too embarrassed to ask for help. Maybe she doesn’t want to be burden. Maybe she’s too weak. But it doesn’t really matter. Your assistance shouldn’t require or depend on her asking. Knowing she is in need, you should make sure she is warm, whether she asks or not.

And, thus, we come to the first problem of prayer: Why do you even have to ask God for help? Doesn’t God already know you have cancer, or that you are unhappy at your job, or that your spouse has a drinking problem, or that you can’t pay the rent, or that there is a drought, or that a war is causing all kinds of suffering? The idea that God would only take action when and if asked is deeply problematic. It suggests that God is either not all-knowing (since He doesn’t know things unless you tell Him via prayer) or He is immoral (since He only helps those in need if asked).

If there is a God who loves you and cares for you, surely this God wouldn’t require a mental email request before helping you out.

2. Doesn’t God Already Have Plan?​

Once I was teaching a class at night in a neighboring town. The only route home was a road with traffic lights at every intersection, set to a timer. If you got the green light at just the right time, then you got a green light at every intersection, all the way, and the drive home was quick and smooth. But if you got at a red light early on, then you would get stuck with red lights at every intersection, making the ride home much longer.

So, this one night, I decided to pray for green lights all the way home. I picked Pan, the goat-god, as my deity of choice. I prayed soulfully and hard. And then, at the very first intersection, I got a red light. Damn! Pan didn’t answer my prayer! But before I gave up on Pan’s beneficent might, I quickly reckoned: “Hey, maybe I didn’t get the green light because Pan knows that two miles ahead there is a drunk driver, and if I had gotten the green lights, I would’ve been hit by him. Pan put a red light up to save me from that accident. He knew best!”

In other words: My prayer for green lights wasn’t answered the way I wanted, but that’s because Pan had a plan. Being all-wise and all-loving, Pan knew what was in my best interests at that moment.

This little experiment taught me so much about the very nature of prayer: It’s a self-contradicting heads-I-win-tails-you-lose phenomenon. It works like this: People ask God for things. If they get them, it is proof that prayer works! If they don’t get them… it is still proof that prayer works! It just means that God has answered their prayer in a different way. And that’s because God knows better. He has a plan. When He closes a door, He always opens a window. Or a drainage pipe. But if that is truly the case — that God has a plan — then why bother praying in the first place? Why not just “let go and let God”?

If God is in control of everything, and God knows what is best for you, then praying is pointless.

3. Where’s the Evidence?​

All stories of prayer working are purely anecdotal. Sometimes inexplicable things happen. Usually they don’t. Sometimes people miraculously recover. Usually they don’t. Sometimes people survive dangerous, horrific ordeals by the slimmest of chances. But most don’t. For every sole survivor of a plane crash, there were hundreds who died. The universe is permeated by things like probability, odds, chance, luck, misfortune, and a whole heap of uncontrollability. Some people experience good things for good reasons, bad reasons, or no reasons, while others experience bad things for bad reasons, good reasons, or no reasons. Accept reality. Separate fact from fantasy. See life with clear eyes.

Naturally, when people find themselves in hopeless situations, or when they feel powerless, or when they are trapped in circumstances beyond their control, or when they just need a sense of connection to something bigger, more powerful, and more loving than what they can find elsewhere, prayer is an understandable option. It can be calming, it can be comforting, it can make someone feel like maybe — just maybe — they can magically alter the course of events affecting them or their loved ones.

But that doesn’t erase the logical contradictions and immoral implications of petitionary prayer."
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Thoughts?

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God is glorified by man's dependence

Ezekiel 36:37
“Thus says the Lord GOD: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock.

 

[Spartan]

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1. Do you really have to ask?​

"You do not have because you do not ask." - James 4:2

2. Doesn’t God Already Have Plan?

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." - Jeremiah 29:11

3. Where’s the Evidence?

“Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the Lord, ‘O Lord my God, let this child’s life come into him again.’ And the Lord listened to the voice of Elijah. And the life of the child came into him again, and he revived.” - 1 Kings 17:21-22 (ESV)
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[roger1440]

What is prayer, exactly?

According to the "Lord's Prayer" prayer is not about changing the world, it's about changing how to live with in the world.