"Three Simple Problems With Prayer"

[Sunstone]

Dodge.

You can call it a "dodge" until doomsday, I still will not do your homework for you, Jose. Pretend all you want you are incapable of googling, I will not believe you are truly incapable.


Uncle Sunstone's Personal RF Journal

 

[blü 2]

.Thoughts?

Everybody makes wishes. Everybody hopes for luck (with crops, hunting, childbirth, the job application, the numbers, everything). When luck happens, it's very often accompanied by the sense that it was somehow sent (whence DG Rossetti's remark, The worst time for the atheist is when he feels thankful and has no on one to thank).

Since that instinct is universal, we presumably evolved it because it's useful, though no important utility occurs to me offhand.

As for prayers, you have your tribal deity, and he or she or they are the beings with the power to send or withhold luck.

So if you thought your deity could indeed send you luck, what could be more obvious than to ask for it. If you're in the religious profession, what could be more obvious than to latch onto 'Knock and it shall be opened, ask and it shall be given' as part of your own outlook as well as your professional sales pitch.

It's not logical, it makes God arbitrary and essentially corruptible by flattery, and the arguments in the OP are entirely to the point.

Nonetheless, even really smart people buy lottery tickets; reason has its limits because it's dealing with humans.

 

[Kenny]

Or consider this scenario: There’s an old lady who lives next door to you, alone. She’s very frail. One day, during winter, the power in your neighborhood goes out. There’s no electricity for heat. You go out to chop some wood to build a fire in your fireplace. Now, you could also build a fire in your old neighbor’s fireplace. But you don’t provide her with any wood and you don’t make sure she is warm because, well, she hasn’t asked. So you’ll just let her freeze.

So, this same lady, didn't have enough money to pay for electricity and there is no heat. Now, the electric company does have some help and there are organizations that have other types of help.

She eventually freezes and everyone wonders why..... "she didn't ask for the help".

 

[Kenny]

And, thus, we come to the first problem of prayer: Why do you even have to ask God for help? Doesn’t God already know you have cancer, or that you are unhappy at your job, or that your spouse has a drinking problem, or that you can’t pay the rent, or that there is a drought, or that a war is causing all kinds of suffering? The idea that God would only take action when and if asked is deeply problematic. It suggests that God is either not all-knowing (since He doesn’t know things unless you tell Him via prayer) or He is immoral (since He only helps those in need if asked).

Absolutely, yes He does know. But like Skwim, some people don't want His help. They don't believe He can help. In fact they even deny His desire to help.

YUP! It's called the "victim mentality". They want a God that has everyone like a robot. If I drink too much alcohol, I want HIM to stop me from driving or, at the least, don't let me get drunk. If I hang over the cliff for a selfie, I want HIM to hold me up so that I don't slip and fall.

Yes, I want a God that I can hang up in the closet, use HIM when I want and put HIM back in the closet when I don't.

YUP! I want Heaven on earth that gives me no responsibilities to make that happen.


Ahhhh... I feel so much better now!

 

[Orbit]

It rather shames me that I must point out the obvious here, but...

Here is Zuckerman as quoted in the OP:

"What is prayer, exactly? Simple: It is mentally asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something. It is sending heartfelt, mind-powered texts to a God. Sometimes it requires a certain ritual, sometimes it involves specific hand motions, often it comes with closed eyes or furrowed brows, occasionally it is aided by deep concentration or the sacrifice of an animal, but in the end, it all boils down to the same thing: earnestly petitioning a God to grant a wish, respond to a need, fulfill a request, or offer help."​

Now I have two questions for you. Both questions have objective answers. Here's the first question:

Is or is not Zuckerman in essence defining the purpose of all prayer as beseeching god to intervene on one's behalf? (Yes he is, apparently because he reasons that if the majority of people believe the purpose of prayer is X, then the purpose of all prayer is X.)

Is or is not Zuckerman speaking as a scientist in the quoted material? (No he is not -- unless scientists nowadays speak in mildly inflammatory language.)

Now, I genuinely and honestly believe you are an intelligent person. Thus I will not insult you by explicitly drawing the obvious conclusion about Zuckerman's competence and professionalism from those two facts. Instead, I will allow you to arrive at that conclusion yourself.

I think you've missed my point, which is that the average person you meet does have a transactional view of prayer.

 

[Skwim]

Absolutely, yes He does know. But like Skwim, some people don't want His help. They don't believe He can help. In fact they even deny His desire to help.

They don't pray for god's help. God knows they don't want his help. He doesn't help. So?????

YUP! It's called the "victim mentality". They want a God that has everyone like a robot. If I drink too much alcohol, I want HIM to stop me from driving or, at the least, don't let me get drunk. If I hang over the cliff for a selfie, I want HIM to hold me up so that I don't slip and fall.

You just got done saying "some people don't want His help," and now you're talking about people who do: "YUP . . . I want HIM to stop me from driving or, at the least, don't let me get drunk. ." So just what story are we dealing with here?

.

 

[Jose Fly]

You can call it a "dodge" until doomsday, I still will not do your homework for you, Jose. Pretend all you want you are incapable of googling, I will not believe you are truly incapable.

Okay then, your refusal to answer what you've labelled "easy questions" speaks for itself.

 

[Kenny]

They don't pray for god's help. God knows they don't want his help. He doesn't help. So?????

Must be a different God.

You just got done saying "some people don't want His help," and now you're talking about people who do: "YUP . . . I want HIM to stop me from driving or, at the least, don't let me get drunk. ." So just what story are we dealing with here?

The one you are promoting by your op?

 

[sealchan]

.

"By Phil Zuckerman: professor of sociology and secular studies at Pitzer College.

Last week, I got a call from one of my cousins. A well-respected rheumatologist with a jocular edge, she is a devout Catholic who finds enormous comfort and inspiration in her faith. She called to see if I would be willing to let four nuns pray on my behalf for thirty days if it just might change my life for the better? It was, she explained, all for love.

Sure, I said. Why not? If four nuns want to pray for my well-being, that’s fine with me.

My cousin’s belief in the positive power of prayer is common. Millions of Americans — and hundreds of millions of other people around the world — pray all the time. Indeed, prayer is one thing that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Rajneeshees, Hindus, Mormons, Sikhs, and worshippers of Viracocha, Perkūnas, and Tāne all have in common.

What is prayer, exactly? Simple: It is mentally asking a magical, invisible, powerful deity to do something. It is sending heartfelt, mind-powered texts to a God. Sometimes it requires a certain ritual, sometimes it involves specific hand motions, often it comes with closed eyes or furrowed brows, occasionally it is aided by deep concentration or the sacrifice of an animal, but in the end, it all boils down to the same thing: earnestly petitioning a God to grant a wish, respond to a need, fulfill a request, or offer help.

1. Do you really have to ask?​

Imagine you have taken your daughter to a skateboarding park. While there, she falls and hits her head. There’s blood. She’s crying. But you just sit there, doing nothing. You don’t go to her, you don’t put ice on her injury, you don’t call 9-1-1. Some other adult rushes to help your daughter, and when she finds out you are her parent, asks you, “Why didn’t you help your daughter?”

And you reply, “Well, she didn’t ask.”

Pretty awful response, right? I mean, you were there, you saw what happened, and you had the power to come to your daughter’s aid — but you didn’t simply because she didn’t outright ask you for help? Such inaction isn’t just immoral; we’d call it irresponsible parenting. If your child is suffering and you know it and you have the power to do something about it, you do what you can. Such loving help should never be contingent upon an explicit or even implicit request.

Or consider this scenario: There’s an old lady who lives next door to you, alone. She’s very frail. One day, during winter, the power in your neighborhood goes out. There’s no electricity for heat. You go out to chop some wood to build a fire in your fireplace. Now, you could also build a fire in your old neighbor’s fireplace. But you don’t provide her with any wood and you don’t make sure she is warm because, well, she hasn’t asked. So you’ll just let her freeze.

Again, awful, right? Maybe she didn’t ask you to build a fire because she’s too embarrassed to ask for help. Maybe she doesn’t want to be burden. Maybe she’s too weak. But it doesn’t really matter. Your assistance shouldn’t require or depend on her asking. Knowing she is in need, you should make sure she is warm, whether she asks or not.

And, thus, we come to the first problem of prayer: Why do you even have to ask God for help? Doesn’t God already know you have cancer, or that you are unhappy at your job, or that your spouse has a drinking problem, or that you can’t pay the rent, or that there is a drought, or that a war is causing all kinds of suffering? The idea that God would only take action when and if asked is deeply problematic. It suggests that God is either not all-knowing (since He doesn’t know things unless you tell Him via prayer) or He is immoral (since He only helps those in need if asked).

If there is a God who loves you and cares for you, surely this God wouldn’t require a mental email request before helping you out.

2. Doesn’t God Already Have Plan?​

Once I was teaching a class at night in a neighboring town. The only route home was a road with traffic lights at every intersection, set to a timer. If you got the green light at just the right time, then you got a green light at every intersection, all the way, and the drive home was quick and smooth. But if you got at a red light early on, then you would get stuck with red lights at every intersection, making the ride home much longer.

So, this one night, I decided to pray for green lights all the way home. I picked Pan, the goat-god, as my deity of choice. I prayed soulfully and hard. And then, at the very first intersection, I got a red light. Damn! Pan didn’t answer my prayer! But before I gave up on Pan’s beneficent might, I quickly reckoned: “Hey, maybe I didn’t get the green light because Pan knows that two miles ahead there is a drunk driver, and if I had gotten the green lights, I would’ve been hit by him. Pan put a red light up to save me from that accident. He knew best!”

In other words: My prayer for green lights wasn’t answered the way I wanted, but that’s because Pan had a plan. Being all-wise and all-loving, Pan knew what was in my best interests at that moment.

This little experiment taught me so much about the very nature of prayer: It’s a self-contradicting heads-I-win-tails-you-lose phenomenon. It works like this: People ask God for things. If they get them, it is proof that prayer works! If they don’t get them… it is still proof that prayer works! It just means that God has answered their prayer in a different way. And that’s because God knows better. He has a plan. When He closes a door, He always opens a window. Or a drainage pipe. But if that is truly the case — that God has a plan — then why bother praying in the first place? Why not just “let go and let God”?

If God is in control of everything, and God knows what is best for you, then praying is pointless.

3. Where’s the Evidence?​

All stories of prayer working are purely anecdotal. Sometimes inexplicable things happen. Usually they don’t. Sometimes people miraculously recover. Usually they don’t. Sometimes people survive dangerous, horrific ordeals by the slimmest of chances. But most don’t. For every sole survivor of a plane crash, there were hundreds who died. The universe is permeated by things like probability, odds, chance, luck, misfortune, and a whole heap of uncontrollability. Some people experience good things for good reasons, bad reasons, or no reasons, while others experience bad things for bad reasons, good reasons, or no reasons. Accept reality. Separate fact from fantasy. See life with clear eyes.

Naturally, when people find themselves in hopeless situations, or when they feel powerless, or when they are trapped in circumstances beyond their control, or when they just need a sense of connection to something bigger, more powerful, and more loving than what they can find elsewhere, prayer is an understandable option. It can be calming, it can be comforting, it can make someone feel like maybe — just maybe — they can magically alter the course of events affecting them or their loved ones.

But that doesn’t erase the logical contradictions and immoral implications of petitionary prayer."
source
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Thoughts?

.​

Even Jesus warned against praying for specifics. Prayer is a mental ritual which focuses one on hope, re-inforces acceptance and gratitude for what is and whatever may come and allows us to face adversity with an action indicative of our inner integrity and resolve.

It can have deep psychological impact and as such it is deeply valuable.

To have an impact on others it should be done only with their permission to not have the opposite effect. The reality of the psyche is not to be ignored.

 

[Skwim]

Prayer is a mental ritual which focuses one on hope, re-inforces acceptance and gratitude for what is and whatever may come and allows us to face adversity with an action indicative of our inner integrity and resolve.

It can have deep psychological impact and as such it is deeply valuable.

If I understand you correctly, prayer isn't going to change a thing with god; he'll do what he's going to do regardless of what anyone does. Its value lies solely in the psychological impact it has on those who pray.

To have an impact on others it should be done only with their permission to not have the opposite effect. The reality of the psyche is not to be ignored.

If someone else doesn't know you're praying for them how will it have an opposite effect, or any effect on them?

.

 

[sealchan]

If I understand you correctly, prayer isn't going to change a thing with god; he'll do what he's going to do regardless of what anyone does. Its value lies solely in the psychological impact it has on those who pray.


If someone else doesn't know you're praying for them how will it have an opposite effect, or any effect on them?

.

The opposite impact would be that person finding out something they didn't want happened without their consent. Perhaps they believe that the prayer is working against what they would want to represent about themselves.

If a story or a belief mouthed through prayer helps the praying person to persist in a situation then not only will it have a direct psychological impact, but it may allow them the real world success they wanted that might be denied them were they to give up. So there can be a secondary benefit.

Also, the psychological effort may improve outcome in illness. I believe that there imay be some marginal control that the conscious personality may have on lower level bodily processes. Another beneficial reason to tell someone you are praying for them.