Throw Grandma in Jail and Throw Away the Key?

[Wildswanderer]

So you do not know what she actually did. There is a link to an article that explains what she did and why she was found guilty. I even quoted from it rather extensively in one thread. You should try to learn a little before making rather ignorant comments.

Did granny hit anyone? Did she break anything?
If not what is she in for?

 

[F1fan]

Did granny hit anyone? Did she break anything?
If not what is she in for?

Do you accept that conspiracy to commit crimes IS a crime itself? You seem to have a primitive and/or poorly informed idea of law.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Do you accept that conspiracy to commit crimes IS a crime itself? You seem to have a primitive and/or poorly informed idea of law.

So she's in jail for saying certain words?
What actual crime did she commit?

 

[fantome profane]

So she's in jail for saying certain words?
What actual crime did she commit?

Ya know, you could actually just google that information.

 

[F1fan]

So she's in jail for saying certain words?
What actual crime did she commit?

Read the story. She did something that was at least one crime. She showed poor judgment for just being there as she must have believed Trump's lie about election fraud. If she read reputable news sources she would have known that there was no evidence of fraud, and all the results were certified.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Read the story. She did something that was at least one crime. She showed poor judgment for just being there as she must have believed Trump's lie about election fraud. If she read reputable news sources she would have known that there was no evidence of fraud, and all the results were certified.

Now your political opinion is a crime? Millions of people believe their was election fraud. Maybe we should put them all in prison?

 

[Subduction Zone]

There may be many atheists who have turned from the “Christian religion”, but none who had their lives transformed by a living relationship with Jesus; leave Him. One who is born again and raised to new, eternal life in Christ belongs to Jesus forever and cannot be unborn.
I read plenty of accounts of atheists who have be saved by Christ, born anew, who now realize the Creator knows more then they do and therefore, believe His word.

That is because that has not happened to anyone. And fairy tales and lies about atheists should not be believed either.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Now your political opinion is a crime? Millions of people believe their was election fraud. Maybe we should put them all in prison?

No, acting on a lie can be a crime. That is what she did. Believing a lie after all of this time only means that she was not terribly bright.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did granny hit anyone? Did she break anything?
If not what is she in for?

So a person has to do something physical to do something wrong in your opinion? That is about the same understanding of right and wrong that a person in the third grade might have.

 

[InChrist]

I understand that you might believe that, but I'm an atheist.



I think I explained to you that that argument isn't compelling. I live outside of religion now, and it is a full and satisfying life.



Not if there is not god. This is about doctrine, however, and I know Christian doctrine in this area. Even if your personal theology varies from orthodoxy, the needless suffering of people dying unsaved is a central tenet in Christianity - obey God's commandments, or be subject to eternal torture.

Have you seen the quotations from church fathers throughout the ages relishing in looking down at the souls in hell and enjoying their suffering along with God? These people believed and taught exactly what you are saying doesn't happen. This is what I meant by gratuitous suffering of benefit to nobody but sadists:

[1] "In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned ... So that they may be urged the more to praise God ... The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens ... to the damned" - Thomas Aquinas

[2] "The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery." - Bishop Newcomb

[3] "This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed." - Samuel Hopkins

[4] "Non-Christians often ask the Christian, "But how can the God of love allow any of his creatures to suffer unending misery?" The question is, how can he not? The fact that God is love makes hell necessary." - Christian Theology in Plain Language, p. 219

[5] "The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven ... The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever ... Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell ... I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." - Jonathan Edwards

[6] "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." - Tertullian

[7] "Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!" - Jonathan Edwards

[8] "What will it be like for a mother in heaven who sees her son burning in hell? She will glorify the justice of God." - Catholic Truth Society​

Of course. I wasn't one of them. I left Christianity, and that's when my life was transformed. None who have had their lives transformed by humanism would return to theism.



And you might have heard me say that once. I was an atheist who became a Christian, then I was a Christian who returned to atheism. Your beliefs are predicated on the idea that theism makes a life better. The opposite was the case with me. And I assume that means that you believe that I just wasn't doing it right. That's the usual reaction. Of course, the theist argues, God is there and anxious to welcome all who seek him with open, loving arms. If that didn't happen, the individual failed, because God is real and never fails. I see it as I never sacrificed my evidence-based thinking. I only agreed to suspend disbelief and stop analyzing the religion like a skeptic for a season to see if it began to make sense and if the religion kept its promises, like somebody trying on a pair of shoes that don't fit quite right now, but might after a walk in them. The answer was no in each case, so, I cast those shoes off and found better fitting shoes. That's reasonable.

I understand that you might believe that, but I'm an atheist.



I think I explained to you that that argument isn't compelling. I live outside of religion now, and it is a full and satisfying life.



Not if there is not god. This is about doctrine, however, and I know Christian doctrine in this area. Even if your personal theology varies from orthodoxy, the needless suffering of people dying unsaved is a central tenet in Christianity - obey God's commandments, or be subject to eternal torture.

Have you seen the quotations from church fathers throughout the ages relishing in looking down at the souls in hell and enjoying their suffering along with God? These people believed and taught exactly what you are saying doesn't happen. This is what I meant by gratuitous suffering of benefit to nobody but sadists:

[1] "In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned ... So that they may be urged the more to praise God ... The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens ... to the damned" - Thomas Aquinas

[2] "The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery." - Bishop Newcomb

[3] "This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed." - Samuel Hopkins

[4] "Non-Christians often ask the Christian, "But how can the God of love allow any of his creatures to suffer unending misery?" The question is, how can he not? The fact that God is love makes hell necessary." - Christian Theology in Plain Language, p. 219

[5] "The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven ... The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever ... Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell ... I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." - Jonathan Edwards

[6] "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." - Tertullian

[7] "Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!" - Jonathan Edwards

[8] "What will it be like for a mother in heaven who sees her son burning in hell? She will glorify the justice of God." - Catholic Truth Society​

Of course. I wasn't one of them. I left Christianity, and that's when my life was transformed. None who have had their lives transformed by humanism would return to theism.



And you might have heard me say that once. I was an atheist who became a Christian, then I was a Christian who returned to atheism. Your beliefs are predicated on the idea that theism makes a life better. The opposite was the case with me. And I assume that means that you believe that I just wasn't doing it right. That's the usual reaction. Of course, the theist argues, God is there and anxious to welcome all who seek him with open, loving arms. If that didn't happen, the individual failed, because God is real and never fails. I see it as I never sacrificed my evidence-based thinking. I only agreed to suspend disbelief and stop analyzing the religion like a skeptic for a season to see if it began to make sense and if the religion kept its promises, like somebody trying on a pair of shoes that don't fit quite right now, but might after a walk in them. The answer was no in each case, so, I cast those shoes off and found better fitting shoes. That's reasonable.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience. I do truly appreciate it. If those quotes you listed of so-called church fathers actually represented God or biblical truth...then I would reject Christianity and such a malevolent God, too, as you say you have.

Those quotes aren’t truth, though. They represent the man made or maybe even demonically inspired theology is Calvinism which does indeed paint God as a monster. I reject such false doctrines and consider them to be heresy contrary to the Bible and an affront to the Creator God of the scriptures who is the epitome of Love, Mercy, Compassion and Justice.

May I ask, back when you said you became a Christian; how did it happen and/or what church was this associated with?

 

[InChrist]

I am seeing more and more ads for different kinds of medical implants, to monitor blood sugar, to help breath properly while sleeping, and of course we have had pacemakers and other things for decades.

I say bring it on.

Those type of technological advancements or modern mechanical aids are not exactly what I was referring to. And of course, many things which can be beneficial may also become weapons and/or instruments of control in the hands of a malevolent person/ government.

 

[InChrist]

That is because that has not happened to anyone. And fairy tales and lies about atheists should not be believed either.

You are mistaken. It has and does happen.

 

[InChrist]

The Garden story is a myth, not history. But let's assume it is true for the sake of debate, why didn't God create Adam and Eve capable of obedience and could withstand temptation? Certainly off a God is erfect it can make beings mature and responsible enough to follow the rules, but God didn't. God knew it would make beings that could no resist temptation and the Garden fell.

If you disagree, why are you saying that God couldn't make beings that would follow the rules he set?

God made beings capable of making the choice to obey or not obey; listen to His wisdom, trust their own finite understanding or listen to lies. If they had obeyed, then it may be that they would have gained understanding over time in a more conducive environment free of so much suffering in the world due to sin and rebellion. But Adam and Eve listened to the lie and elevated their own desires above God’s love and wisdom.

As to your question; why couldn’t God make beings that would follow the rules He set? I’d like to highlight first that there was only “one” rule. So pretty simple opportunity or test to reveal where their loyalty was. Secondly, as I said previously, God desired they have freewill to make the choice themselves, rather than be created and programmed to obey. This freedom appears to be a priority in God’s design of humans created in His image. Thirdly, although God called His creation good, there is no way that any created beings could be perfect...because only God is perfect. Any created being is less than the Perfect Creator, therefore there is the risk and the possibility of such beings making mistakes, sinning and falling short of God’s perfect standard, just as the scriptures attest is the case. Of course, God knew this, so He made a way for fallen humans to receive perfection through the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. Again, this is a gift freely offered which each person must freely choose to receive or refuse.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are mistaken. It has and does happen.

I have seen people claim that, but it is usually easy to tell that they were lying. People lie for Jesus all of the time. It is an every day event for Christianity. They even have a line of people that lie professionally. You cannot be a Christian apologist if you are not willing to lie for Jesus.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So a person has to do something physical to do something wrong in your opinion? That is about the same understanding of right and wrong that a person in the third grade might have.

Thought police are beyond the pale. This isn't that movie. This is America, where you should not be arrested for your political views.

 

[F1fan]

God made beings capable of making the choice to obey or not obey; listen to His wisdom, trust their own finite understanding or listen to lies.

Sure, they just enough brain cells to make a decision. Dogs and cats can make decisions. What God did not do was give Adam and Eve enough wisdom and discipline to obey. Look at the set up, the tree of knowledge is essential what WOULD give them the wisdom to know better. But God made them without the necessary knowledge and skill to make a good decision. To really screw them over God created Satan (serpent) and was placed in the Garden to tempt them.

So perhaps grandma is as dumb as a dog who keeps pooping on the floor and Trump is the serpent tempting her to keep pooping on the floor, and now she faces punishment because she should have known better, like the vast majority of voters.

If they had obeyed, then it may be that they would have gained understanding over time in a more conducive environment free of so much suffering in the world due to sin and rebellion.

Really? Where is that in the Genesis myth? Or are you making it up because the whole story is simplistic and absurd? Besides the tree of knowledge IS knowledge. There is no knowledge to gain without disobeying God. They are essentially animals like any other animal.

But Adam and Eve listened to the lie and elevated their own desires above God’s love and wisdom.

And why did God create a being that would lie to them? Why did God put the serpent in the Garden IF God really, really wanted A&E to obey? BTW, the serpent told them the truth.

As to your question; why couldn’t God make beings that would follow the rules He set? I’d like to highlight first that there was only “one” rule. So pretty simple opportunity or test to reveal where their loyalty was.

Irrelevant. If they don't understand the rule then what difference does one or 100 make? How many times do you need to scold a dog before it stops pooping on the floor? Give it one rule and they do not understand right away.

Secondly, as I said previously, God desired they have freewill to make the choice themselves, rather than be created and programmed to obey. This freedom appears to be a priority in God’s design of humans created in His image.

Having free will does not mean stupid. Humans have this "free will" but some have poor judgment while others have good judgment. God did not make A&E with good judgment, but he could have if he really, really wanted them to obey.

Do you really think that if God really, really wanted these beings to obey the rule that is could not create them capable of obedience? God didn't. If you build a perfect car that will never break down, but it breaks down after a week, you don't blame the car. There is a flaw that the designer/builder caused.

Thirdly, although God called His creation good, there is no way that any created beings could be perfect...because only God is perfect. Any created being is less than the Perfect Creator, therefore there is the risk and the possibility of such beings making mistakes, sinning and falling short of God’s perfect standard, just as the scriptures attest is the case. Of course, God knew this, so He made a way for fallen humans to receive perfection through the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ. Again, this is a gift freely offered which each person must freely choose to receive or refuse.

OK, so God is incapable of creating anything perfect according to you. So you are admitting that A&E had some defect and the Garden was not a perfect creation, so there would be decay eventually. It is inevitable that the Garden would collapse, and that was due to the unavoidable limitation of God's ability to create perfection. Is that somewhere in the Genesis myth? Or are you making it up because the usual Evangelical Christian interpretation is flawed?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience. I do truly appreciate it. If those quotes you listed of so-called church fathers actually represented God or biblical truth...then I would reject Christianity and such a malevolent God, too, as you say you have.

That strongman deity is what appeals to many about Christianity. Many Christians are kind, gentle people as I suspect you are, and gravitate toward the deity that represents their disposition, the God of love and mercy as they call it. Others are worshiping the strongman. They like that he gives orders and metes out severe punishment. These are the people who like to tell us unbelievers that they will be in hell and regret it then, but it'll be too late. They're angry at atheists and want them punished. And so, we see both types of Christians and a spectrum between.

We see the same in American voters. Trump and Biden are the two archetypes - kick a** and take names later authoritarianism versus the contemplative, gentle type. People gravitate to the candidate that reflects their own psychology.

Also, I just wanted to remind you that those quotes are not what caused me to leave Christianity. I mentioned them as evidence that Christianity very much teaches that perdition is eternal torture, and not in the sense of being separated from God, but of being eternally burned and impaled.

May I ask, back when you said you became a Christian; how did it happen and/or what church was this associated with?

I was in the Army in the seventies when I decided to give Christianity a chance. It's probably relevant that my life was in a bit of a shambles. I graduated high school early and went to university, where I found that I lacked the discipline to get myself to class. I dropped out just before flunking out. This was a huge setback, as I had always been an academic achiever, and my dream was to become a physician in an era when getting into medical school was extremely competitive. I saw myself throwing my life away, helpless to right the ship. That's why I chose the Army - imposed structure and discipline.

It was a good choice that accomplished its intended purpose - but that was out of the frying pan into the fire. I was really out of my element now, and far from home. Stress levels rose, and I think that in large part is why I found Christianity appealing. I think most people come into the religion from childhood, where it is just their family and community culture. But those who come later often have a personal crisis of sorts, which is why I always said that it is easier to find converts on Skid Row and Death Row than Restaurant Row.

My initial congregation was Pentecostal. They spoke in tongues, although I never did. We had a gifted and charismatic preacher, and Sundays were always Spirit-filled. When my army days ended, I returned to my home state, and began looking for another congregation. I tried other Pentecostal churches, but also Baptist and Methodist, and found them all lifeless. Where did the Spirit go? It didn't follow me back to California. I eventually understood what that meant - I had misunderstood the significance of the euphoria in the first congregation as the Holy Spirit. As I said, even though I had agreed to suspend disbelief to try the religion out, I apparently never lost the ability to evaluate evidence. I had made a mistake interpreting the euphoria.

By this time, I was back at university and accomplishing my goals, so all my angst had been resolved - both the angst of looming academic failure, and that of being lonesome and a long way from home.

God desired they have freewill to make the choice themselves, rather than be created and programmed to obey. This freedom appears to be a priority in God’s design of humans created in His image

But it doesn't make sense. We have animal urges and the ability to manifest them. Why would a good god give people the desire and ability to hurt one another and ruin lives, and then end up in hell? It wouldn't. You wouldn't. I wouldn't. If we had the power of a god and could cause our children to never want to rob a convenience store or become addicted to cocaine, we would take that possibility away from them by programming that option out.

As you know, I don't believe that there was a god granting free will. I believe we live in a godless universe (or one indistinguishable from a godless universe), where we would expect animals to have instincts and urges naturally as a survival mechanism. Man has evolved to now possess higher cortical centers, where intellect and conscience reside, and which give him contradictory commands to those coming from the older reptilian and mammalian centers. A male dog sees a female dog and mounts her. Man has the same instincts, which he must tame or harm others and face prison. This is just how it is for us. It would be a mess for an intelligent designer to have caused, but understandable if we just evolved.

How does Christianity depict this? Free will is a gift from God. Some gift. God doesn't want robots. Why not? I do, if by robot we mean people who reliably make good choices and never will harm to others. I want my friends to be that kind of a "robot." This robot depiction suggests empty heads. Not at all. Why wouldn't people with no will but the will to do good and right have full and satisfying lives that they would choose to live again and again?

As with many other issues theists face, such as why God chooses to give man a dual nature and also free will to express either, one of which leads to unhappiness for self and others, these problems evaporate away with atheism, as you have seen. The atheist doesn't need to resort to verbal gymnastics to explain that.

 

[Truth in love]

@It Aint Necessarily So , @Revoltingest, @F1fan , @Secret Chief , @Subduction Zone

Just as a point of reference...

Here we have a grandmother of 60+ years who has lived a stellar life but was taking pictures while police waved people into the Capitol and now is going to spend 3 months in jail.

OK.

Legally, the judge has every right to do so. I cry out for mercy but "no" is the answer. Rather, it had been mentioned, "They were already lenient and if anything it should have been a harsher judgement". (Paraphrased)

So... fine... it is within the law, but it made me think.

Such a small infraction in the name of "insurrection against the Government!

As my signature details and in my view, here we have people who have committed many more crimes than this Grandmother, voice insurrection against the Government of God, but it is wrong if those who are against God receive a sentence? When it is God Himself that says "I want to give mercy -- please receive it. I don't want anyone to perish!"

But the response is "NO - I don't believe in your government, your right to execute what is with judicial privilege and the ultimate judge"

"UNJUST" people cry! How could a God be so mean...

And, yet, we want Grandma in jail.

Is that unequal weights? Why is it different? (Within the Christian context)

The crimes are made up and the laws don’t matter.

It has nothing to do with actions or “threat”. This is 3rd word political prisoner crud and was from the start.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thought police are beyond the pale. This isn't that movie. This is America, where you should not be arrested for your political views.

No one was arrested for political views. Why didn't you read the linked article that told you how she broke the law?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The crimes are made up and the laws don’t matter.

It has nothing to do with actions or “threat”. This is 3rd word political prisoner crud and was from the start.

Nope. There was an attempted insurrection. She was part of it. Don't you ever watch the news or read reliable resources?