Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

[danieldemol]

You think those fighting in these wars are ‘religious’? Far from it.

Ah sometimes a Baha'i sermon starts with a slander of the irreligious, but the majority of Russians are religious Orthodox Christians, the majority of Israelis are Jews and in particular supporters of Netanyahu and his genocide of Palestinians are Orthodox Jews, majority of Hamas and Hezbollah are religious Muslims, Majority of US citizens are Christian and majority of Trump supporters are conservative Christians.

Sure there is a war in Myanmar in which the government may not be religious, but that doesn't make most people fighting in wars non-religious in my view, that is simply convenient slander.

 

[Sumadji]

If you read Revelation chapter 5 it states no man in heaven or earth or under it can unseal the meanings so how can we judge others when we ourselves are told that we cannot unseal the meanings? That One according to Revelation is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah?

But have you read the rest of the Book of Revelation for context, or are you just pasting the Baha'i interpretation of a few sentences from chapter five? Lots of people draw all sorts of messages from the Book of Revelation. It is dense and full of strange images.

But here is the NKJV text of Revelation Chapter Five. It is referring to Jesus Christ as 'the Lamb who was slain ... and redeemed us to God by your blood' and is not prophesying Baha'u'llah in 2000 years time.

Spoiler: Revelations Five

And I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of im who sat on the throne.

Now when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For you were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
and have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honour and glory and blessing!”

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honour and glory and power
Be to him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Revelation chapter five

In context it is Jesus Christ who is worthy to open the scroll, the lamb who was slain, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David. It's not Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But have you read the rest of the Book of Revelation for context, or are you just pasting the Baha'i interpretation of a few sentences from chapter five? Lots of people draw all sorts of messages from the Book of Revelation. It is dense and full of strange images.

But here is the NKJV text of Revelation Chapter Five. It is referring to Jesus Christ as 'the Lamb who was slain ... and redeemed us to God by your blood' and is not prophesying Baha'u'llah in 2000 years time.

Spoiler: Revelations Five

And I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of im who sat on the throne.

Now when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For you were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
and have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honour and glory and blessing!”

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honour and glory and power
Be to him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Revelation chapter five

In context it is Jesus Christ who is worthy to open the scroll, the lamb who was slain, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David. It's not Baha'u'llah.

I see you are mistaken to think that the context of Revelations is all about Jesus. It is prophecy of things that will come to pass.

In God's time, not ours and for God each day is a thousand years, so when it is offeres that events will soon come to pass, that is not necessarily a short time for humanity. It could happen all in 3 days of God, which for us is 3000 years.

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein*: for the time is at hand.

That sounds like it will happen soon, but read on and only at verse 7 we already get the idea that it will not be a short time in human reckoning, as most Christians still await verse 7 to unfold in this age.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Bab was also a Lamb, sacrificed so the the "One whom God would make Manifest", would come. If you read of the life of the Bab, and then the events that unfolded after the Message of the Bab was given, you will see the story of Jesus unfolding, not for 3 years, but for 6 years.

These then become valid events that would fulfil those prophecies, prophecies that were to come to pass after the Message of Jesus.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? How did Bill Sears come up with his interpretations when he wrote his book?

If you ever read the book, you'd see that he matched up the Bible prophecies with what actually happened on the ground.
There was really no need to interpret anything because what happened happened and history bears that out.

He conducted his research for seven years before he came to his conclusion that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
He explained that in the Forward to his book.

The following chapters are the record of my seven years of search; they offer my solution to this intriguing century-old mystery. They suggest that our modern newspapermen are one hundred years too late in wishing that they were able to print the dramatic headline:

Christ returns

In fact, our press has been scooped by over a century. You will find here considerable evidence to show that when the newspapers and publications of the 1840s printed their stories headed, Return of Christ expected, they were printing not fancy, but fact, even though they were unaware of the nature of the story at the time, and were totally unable to substantiate its truth in that hour.

If what I have uncovered is the truth, then (according to the testimony of the hard-boiled newspaper editors of the West) it is the most shocking and dramatic story that anyone could possibly tell in print.

But will anyone believe me?

So, you can't blame Jews and Christians for not understanding their own Scriptures. Their true meaning wasn't revealed until the Baha'i Faith came along, hundreds and hundreds of years later. Now that makes all kinds of sense.

No, you can't blame them for believing what they had believed before the coming of Baha'u'llah, but now that the true meaning has been revealed, if they choose to reject that in favor if their Christian doctrines, that's on them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you ever read the book, you'd see that he matched up the Bible prophecies with what actually happened on the ground.
There was really no need to interpret anything because what happened happened and history bears that out.

He conducted his research for seven years before he came to his conclusion that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.
He explained that in the Forward to his book.

The following chapters are the record of my seven years of search; they offer my solution to this intriguing century-old mystery. They suggest that our modern newspapermen are one hundred years too late in wishing that they were able to print the dramatic headline:

Christ returns

In fact, our press has been scooped by over a century. You will find here considerable evidence to show that when the newspapers and publications of the 1840s printed their stories headed, Return of Christ expected, they were printing not fancy, but fact, even though they were unaware of the nature of the story at the time, and were totally unable to substantiate its truth in that hour.

If what I have uncovered is the truth, then (according to the testimony of the hard-boiled newspaper editors of the West) it is the most shocking and dramatic story that anyone could possibly tell in print.

But will anyone believe me?

No, you can't blame them for believing what they had believed before the coming of Baha'u'llah, but now that the true meaning has been revealed, if they choose to reject that in favor if their Christian doctrines, that's on them.

I Also consider that William Sears had the explanations given by Abdul'baha to draw from, as well as his discussions with Shoghi Effendi and other very learned Baha'i Scholars that had personal interaction with Abdul'baha.

Regards Tony



Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I see you are mistaken to think that the context of Revelations is all about Jesus. It is prophecy of things that will come to pass.

For Christians, EVERYTHING is about Jesus. Don't you know that Tony?

Problem is, NOTHING that refers to the return of Christ is about Jesus, because Jesus never said that He was going to return to this world, not even once in the entire New Testament, and when asked what would be the sign of His coming He carefully avoided answering that question since He knew He was not going to return (Matthew 24:3-5).

All we have are other people who believed and hoped that Jesus would return saying He will return, but that completely contradicts what Jesus said.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to judge the earth and establish an earthly Kingdom

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, as Christians believe, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said He was no more in the world and His work was finished here.

 

[Sumadji]

I see you are mistaken to think that the context of Revelations is all about Jesus. It is prophecy of things that will come to pass.

In God's time, not ours and for God each day is a thousand years, so when it is offeres that events will soon come to pass, that is not necessarily a short time for humanity. It could happen all in 3 days of God, which for us is 3000 years.

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein*: for the time is at hand.

That sounds like it will happen soon, but read on and only at verse 7 we already get the idea that it will not be a short time in human reckoning, as most Christians still await verse 7 to unfold in this age.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Bab was also a Lamb, sacrificed so the the "One whom God would make Manifest", would come. If you read of the life of the Bab, and then the events that unfolded after the Message of the Bab was given, you will see the story of Jesus unfolding, not for 3 years, but for 6 years.

These then become valid events that would fulfil those prophecies, prophecies that were to come to pass after the Message of Jesus.

Regards Tony

Nope it's you who are mistaken, imo. Manipulating the NT out of context to prop up your theories. Read the chapter in context

Anyway ..same ole ...

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope it's you who are mistaken,

Nope, if you believe that Jesus is going to return to this world it is you who is mistaken.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Sumadji]

Nope, if you believe that Jesus is going to return to this world it is you who is mistaken.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

That's all moot. Yes it is the Christ who Christian mythology believes will return. But it will still be the Christ who as Christ the Son as the Lamb gave his blood to save the sins of the world.

Not Baha'u'lla in the station of Christ the Father. That ain't it. So let's just let it ride?

As I said, you don't know anything much about the Bible. If you need to project Baha'u'llah can't you do it on his own merits? As if Jesus had never existed, now this guy Baha'u'llah comes along and turns the world on it's head. Yes? Really? Why do you need to keep talking about Jesus?.

Anyway, sorry I got involved ...

 

[Sumadji]

Nobody's going to be treating the Baha'i writings as apex scripture for the next 1000 years. Jesus will still be around long after Baha'u'llah is gone and forgotten. IMO

So ...

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Nobody's going to be treating the Baha'i writings as apex scripture for the next 1000 years. Jesus will still be around long after Baha'u'llah is gone and forgotten. IMO

So ...

Of course, what you stated is your opinion, unless you're a psychic who can predict the future.

And what concern is it of yours what people believe about Jesus or Baha'u'llah now, or even in 1,000 years, assuming humanity survives that long?

 

[Sumadji]

Of course, what you stated is your opinion, unless you're a psychic who can predict the future.

And what concern is it of yours what people believe about Jesus or Baha'u'llah now, or even in 1,000 years, assuming humanity survives that long?

So do you endorse that Baha'i interpretation of Apocalypse Five? Do you endorse Erik van Dankien's interpretation of Ezekiel? Do you want me to keep coming up with spurious 'interpretations' of Abrahamic scripture out of context.

Can you start with the above two cases?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's all moot. Yes it is the Christ who Christian mythology believes will return. But it will still be the Christ who as Christ the Son as the Lamb gave his blood to save the sins of the world.

You are free to believe anything you want to believe will happen in the future but unless it actually happens it is only a belief.
I don't even try to interpret the Book of Revelation since I am not familiar with it and it is full of symbolism, so it is very difficult to know what it means.

Jesus was the Lamb gave his blood to save the sins of the world but that does not mean Jesus is going to return to this world. The fact that the author of Revelation hoped and believed that Jesus would return is certainly no proof that Jesus is going to return.

Not Baha'u'lla in the station of Christ the Father. That ain't it. So let's just let it ride?

No, that ain't it. Baha'u'llah never claimed to come in the station of Christ the Father.

As I said, you don't know anything much about the Bible.

That is a moot point. I can read and understand the words and what they mean when the meaning is plain.

If you need to project Baha'u'llah can't you do it on his own merits?

I could, but nobody is interested in His merits.

As if Jesus had never existed, now this guy Baha'u'llah comes along and turns the world on it's head. Yes? Really?

No, it is not as if Jesus never existed.
If Jesus had not opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts, there would be no foundation for the Kingdom of God on earth.

“Jesus created a power of perceiving God which was new, and in order that it might operate clearly, had to cleanse the spirit of man from all worldly encumbrances. Virtue becomes detachment from the world, sin attachment to it. Jesus demanded this sacrifice — losing the life of the world for the life of the spirit, but He made God so attractive, so joyous, loving, powerful, that the Christian was ready to abandon all for Him, and for Christ Who revealed Him.

Thus the tremendous and fearsome Deity of the Old Testament wins men's hearts in the New. We read of the poor sparrow whose fall was watched by a loving Father, of the flower of the field and the bird of the air, and the tenderest stories that ever have won men's hearts — the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.

A new quality of love now characterizes the Kingdom, a love which united the believers not only with God, but with each other, and even extended to enemies and "them that hate you." "That ye love one another" became the test of Christian discipleship.

The supreme ideal of this love was, as shown in John, the relationship between Christ and the Father, and though revealed in the most simple language and the plainest words, stands as the highest expression of Divine love in scripture.

The result was that Jesus' teachings let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world before. Historians have said that Jesus' teaching has done more to elevate human nature and civilization than all the laws of legislators and the disquisitions of philosophers combined. By releasing religious energies measured to the needs of the hour and the people, He opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts. New affections and aspirations, hopes and loyalties were brought into being and the whole moral world was carried into a state of flux.”

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

Why do you need to keep talking about Jesus?.

I will talk about Jesus as long as other people keep making false claims about Jesus, claims that are not supported by the Bible.
It bothers me when people make false and unsupported claims.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So do you endorse that Baha'i interpretation of Apocalypse Five? Do you endorse Erik van Dankien's interpretation of Ezekiel? Do you want me to keep coming up with spurious 'interpretations' of Abrahamic scripture out of context.

Can you start with the above two cases?

That's not an answer to my question.

 

[Sumadji]

I wouldn't dream of quoting Quran passages in an internet forum discussion without at least having put some study effort into reading the Quran and then first considering the standard interpretation in context before going out into the sticks.

But perhaps that's just me?

 

[Sumadji]

That's not an answer to my question.

Oh right. What was it?

Of course, what you stated is your opinion, unless you're a psychic who can predict the future.

And what concern is it of yours what people believe about Jesus or Baha'u'llah now, or even in 1,000 years, assuming humanity survives that long?

No I don't care what anybody believes. I care about correcting misapplication of Bible passages out-of-context where they're thrust under my nose. Like I would correct misapplication of Shakespeare or Tolkien or any other in forums that embrace them and discuss them

 

[Trailblazer]

Nobody's going to be treating the Baha'i writings as apex scripture for the next 1000 years. Jesus will still be around long after Baha'u'llah is gone and forgotten. IMO

So ...

How do you know that? Only God knows the future.

It could be that the Baha'i writings will become apex scripture for the next 1000 years and into the future.
If that happens Jesus will no longer the topic of conversation. Jesus won't be forgotten but He will be relegated to history.

 

[Godobeyer]

This prayer would have been offered trillions of times.

First What is it asking for?

An individuals answer to that question, will clarify if the next questions are relevant.


Has Muhammad achieved this?

Praying for what exactly ?
Muhammad (pbuh) achieved his mission.
I personally stop believe that Jesus(pbuh) would return or anti-christ ...etc .
all are mythology in my views made by human hand made.

 

[Trailblazer]

No I don't care what anybody believes. I care about correcting misapplication of Bible passages out-of-context where they're thrust under my nose.

That is also what I care about.

 

[Sumadji]

That is also what I care about.

You quote extensively from the Gospel of John. Have you read the Gospel of John for context? It's not long. I don't mean skimming for quotes. Don't you believe that's reasonable?

Oh wait, haven't we just been here? What's the point?