Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

[Sumadji]

Of course, what you stated is your opinion, unless you're a psychic who can predict the future.

And what concern is it of yours what people believe about Jesus or Baha'u'llah now, or even in 1,000 years, assuming humanity survives that long?

How do you know that? Only God knows the future.

It could be that the Baha'i writings will become apex scripture for the next 1000 years and into the future.
If that happens Jesus will no longer the topic of conversation. Jesus won't be forgotten but He will be relegated to history.

I'd bet my boots, and even my socks too, lol

 

[Trailblazer]

You quote extensively from the Gospel of John. Have you read the Gospel of John for context? It's not long.

No, I have not read every chapter, but I have read every chapter I quote from.
I could read every chapter, it is not that long.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd bet my boots, and even my socks too, lol

I am betting my eternal life on what I believe, and I cannot lose, since I believe in both Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Sumadji]

No, I have not read every chapter, but I have read every chapter I quote from.
I could read every chapter, it is not that long.

I like that you're an honest person

 

[URAVIP2ME]

With regards to Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven is very simple. God’s laws will become popular and followed throughout the lands. They will be viewed by one and all as the medicine to cure the ills of our age.
What‘s God’s Will? Easy. It’s that love and brotherhood and peace exists on earth between all people, all races, nations and religions. That the ‘wolf and the lamb’, the antagonistic peoples will be at peace with one another.
This is happening now but it is a process not an event. The process of God’s Will being done on earth is gaining momentum and in time will envelope the world - the spirit of love for all mankind , unconditional love for all believer or not, poor or rich, black or white, easterner or westerner, Muslim or Jew. All will become accepted as equal fellow human beings.

Jesus prayed that God's will be done
According to Jesus it is God's will that God's kingdom be proclaimed internationally - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
Because it is God's Kingdom government (Daniel 2:44) that can bring about good conditions such as mentioned above for the humble meek who will inherit the Earth once the wicked are destroyed forever
The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15; Psalm 104:35

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So how do you know which Christians are believing in errors and lies?
So how do you know who those genuine Christians are?
So how do you know which Christians hear his voice?

Good questions ^ above ^
If you had counterfeit money how would you tell the difference between the fake and the genuine
You would hold up all the money against the one that is genuine
Jesus is the genuine, so stack up one's beliefs against what Jesus taught
Jesus has the crystal-clear ring of truth, but many just use part of it
That is a reason why Jesus said MANY come in his name but prove false at Matt. 7:21-23

 

[Trailblazer]

Good questions ^ above ^
If you had counterfeit money how would you tell the difference between the fake and the genuine
You would hold up all the money against the one that is genuine
Jesus is the genuine, so stack up one's beliefs against what Jesus taught
Jesus has the crystal-clear ring of truth, but many just use part of it
That is a reason why Jesus said MANY come in his name but prove false at Matt. 7:21-23

That still does not answer my questions.
So how do you know which Christians are believing in errors and lies?
So how do you know who those genuine Christians are?
So how do you know which Christians hear his voice?

In other words, how can you tell the difference between the fake and the genuine?
You said that you would hold up against the one that is genuine, but how do you know who is genuine?

 

[CG Didymus]

Man's fall only happens with one's own choices. The story of Adam and Eve being a metephor of our spiritual journey.

Yet, Baha'is believe there was a person named Adam. So, at what point does the story in the Bible become actual history and no longer a metaphor?

Adam is regarded as the first Manifestation of God in the Bahá’í Faith.​

​

In a footnote to the document Bahá’u’lláh prepared by the Bahá’í International Community it is stated that the term Adam is used in the Bahá’í writings to symbolically refer to the concept of the emergence of the human race as well as being used to refer to the first Manifestation of God.​

​

Shoghi Effendi described Adam as beginning a six thousand year Prophetic cycle which was consummated by Bahá’u’lláh,[6] and instituting a cycle of progressive Revelations which were concluded by the Prophet Muhammad.​

​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá has stated that Adam is the ancestor of Abraham and the other Patriarchs in the Bible.[20] He also stated that in the time of Adam it was lawful for siblings to marry and that Abel, Cain, and Seth married their sisters with sibling marriage only becoming forbidden in the religion of Abraham.​

 

[CG Didymus]

I Also consider that William Sears had the explanations given by Abdul'baha to draw from, as well as his discussions with Shoghi Effendi and other very learned Baha'i Scholars that had personal interaction with Abdul'baha.

Regards Tony



Regards Tony

Baha'is aren't supposed to interpret any Scriptures? Are Baha'is interpreting their Scriptures, the Baha'i writings, correctly?

 

[CG Didymus]

Nope it's you who are mistaken, imo. Manipulating the NT out of context to prop up your theories. Read the chapter in context

Anyway ..same ole ...

I think what they attempt to do is claim that the Bab is the Lamb/Lamb that was slain and Baha'u'llah is symbolically God in Revelation.

But context is meaningless to a Baha'i. I've asked several times for them to show how the context for the Second Woe fits what happened during the Bab's time, and how what happened during Baha'u'llah's time fits what happens during the third Woe.

Then, was it in this thread where Loverofhumanity said he had dinner or lunch with a Christian Pastor? I was wondering if the Pastor really understood the claims of the Baha'i Faith? That Baha'u'llah is essentially claiming to be the return of Christ... That Baha'is don't believe Jesus was the one coming.

So, if that Pastor is approving of the Baha'i beliefs, he should no longer be following any outdated religion like Christianity. He should see that the Baha'i Faith has come to take the place of Christianity and all other religions... That it has new social laws and has some corrections to erroneous spiritual beliefs that have crept into the other religions.

Now that's the question... Does he really understand what the Baha'is are claiming? If their claims are true, we should all join in with them. But... what if they aren't true? And how would we know? Unless we research and investigate for ourselves. Something that the Baha'i Faith says we should do. But then, what if some of us find things that don't seem true? Mention them? Debate and argue with Baha'is about them? Or just keep silent?

No matter how some Baha'is whine, I think it's important to keep challenging them about their beliefs and claims.

 

[CG Didymus]

So, you can't blame Jews and Christians for not understanding their own Scriptures. Their true meaning wasn't revealed until the Baha'i Faith came along, hundreds and hundreds of years later. Now that makes all kinds of sense.

To all you Baha'is... Unbelievable! So God told prophets things and people wrote about these things, but what they believed about those things wasn't true? And now that the Baha'is are here, now we know what all those things meant?

Seriously? What's all that BS about the Bible being a "sure guide"? No, not a "sure" guide but a "sure" misguide. Everything in it led the Jews and the Christians to believe things that weren't true.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not Baha'u'lla in the station of Christ the Father.

Here's what I found on some Baha'i forum post...

O CONCOURSE of bishops! Trembling hath seized all the kindreds of the earth, and He Who is the Everlasting Father calleth aloud between earth and heaven. Blessed the ear that hath heard, and the eye that hath seen, and the heart that hath turned unto Him Who is the Point of Adoration of all who are in the heavens and all who are on earth...

~ Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 93

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the
incarnation of the "Everlasting Father", the "Lord of
Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to
Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father";

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 233

"In accepting Bahá'u'lláh you have accepted Christ in His appearance as the Father, as He Himself so clearly foretold. The Catholic Church does not believe this on the contrary, it still awaits the return of Christ. If you decide, on order to be buried next to your dear husband, to return to the church you either would have to, in good faith, deny Bahá'u'lláh or you would be just using the Church as a means to satisfying a desire of your own, which would certainly not be an upright and conscientious thing to do!"

- From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 28, 1950

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 473)

So when we accept Baha'u'llah we are accepting His appearance as the Father..

If the Son of Man was capable of infusing into apparently so crude and helpless an instrument such potency as to cause, in the words of Bahá'u'lláh, "the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth," and to exalt him above the rest of His disciples, and render him fit to become His successor and the founder of His Church, how much more can the Father, Who is Bahá'u'lláh, empower the most puny and insignificant among His followers to achieve, for the execution of His purpose, such wonders as would dwarf the mightiest achievements of even the first apostle of Jesus Christ!

~ "The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 46

 

[CG Didymus]

You quote extensively from the Gospel of John. Have you read the Gospel of John for context? It's not long. I don't mean skimming for quotes. Don't you believe that's reasonable?

Oh wait, haven't we just been here? What's the point?

If she read the whole Gospel of John, she would know that his disciples did see him again. But Baha'is don't believe that the resurrection, as written in the Gospel of John, really happened. So, still a Baha'i could say that they never saw him after that.

But, just to let you know, I love debating/arguing with Baha'is on these threads of theirs. 50 years ago I was around Baha'is for three years. I even went on teaching trips with them. In the late 80's, I went to their Peace Conference in San Francisco. I was very happy to be around them until... I read the Bible for myself. There were just too many contradictions between what Baha'is told me and what the Bible really said.

And one other thing, there's one Baha'i that for about two years now that I don't directly reply to. You can probably guess who that is. Yet, I love her threads the best. She always stirs things up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, Baha'is believe there was a person named Adam. So, at what point does the story in the Bible become actual history and no longer a metaphor?

Adam is regarded as the first Manifestation of God in the Bahá’í Faith.​

​

In a footnote to the document Bahá’u’lláh prepared by the Bahá’í International Community it is stated that the term Adam is used in the Bahá’í writings to symbolically refer to the concept of the emergence of the human race as well as being used to refer to the first Manifestation of God.​

​

Shoghi Effendi described Adam as beginning a six thousand year Prophetic cycle which was consummated by Bahá’u’lláh,[6] and instituting a cycle of progressive Revelations which were concluded by the Prophet Muhammad.​

​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá has stated that Adam is the ancestor of Abraham and the other Patriarchs in the Bible.[20] He also stated that in the time of Adam it was lawful for siblings to marry and that Abel, Cain, and Seth married their sisters with sibling marriage only becoming forbidden in the religion of Abraham.​

Everything that you said Baha'is believe is accurate except for one thing. Adam was the first Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion, but Adam was not the very first Manifestation who ever came to humanity, because there had been universal cycles of religion before the present universal cycle which began with Adam.

As you can see on the outline below, the present Universal Cycle of religion includes the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and the Baha’i Cycle (Cycle of Fulfillment). The Baha’i Cycle will last no less than 500,000 years and all the Messengers of God (Manifestations of God) that appear during the cycle will be under the shadow of Baha'u'llah.

TABLE: BAHA'I SACRED HISTORY

I. PREVIOUS UNIVERSAL CYCLES - of which no trace remains

II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

· A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 years

1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad
+ Other unknown or unspecified prophets

· B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years

1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle

a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of Bahiyyih Khanum)

i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá'u'lláh (1853-92)
iii. Ministry of `Abdu'l-Bahá (1892-1921)

b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921 -

i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order
ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere
iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans
iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development
v. Successive further Epochs

c. Golden Age
Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace

3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá'u'lláh

· END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

III. FURTHER UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'is aren't supposed to interpret any Scriptures? Are Baha'is interpreting their Scriptures, the Baha'i writings, correctly?

Bahai can interpret scriptures if they so wish to CG. They cannot give it as an authorised interpretation.

A lot that William Sears offered can be found in authorised translations.

When using those interpretations, they are not wrong.

There are Baha'i that have written books on their interpretation of the Book of Revelation. They also include official interpretation in their works.

This link gives some keys in applying interpretation to the Bible, maybe you will appreciate some of those "Keys".

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Yet, Baha'is believe there was a person named Adam. So, at what point does the story in the Bible become actual history and no longer a metaphor?

Because they have to treat the Quran as updating and informing the Bible. The Quran treats Adam as a prophet. Same with the resurrection of Christ.

Here's what I found on some Baha'i forum post...

O CONCOURSE of bishops! Trembling hath seized all the kindreds of the earth, and He Who is the Everlasting Father calleth aloud between earth and heaven. Blessed the ear that hath heard, and the eye that hath seen, and the heart that hath turned unto Him Who is the Point of Adoration of all who are in the heavens and all who are on earth...

~ Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 93

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the
incarnation of the "Everlasting Father", the "Lord of
Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to
Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father";

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 233

"In accepting Bahá'u'lláh you have accepted Christ in His appearance as the Father, as He Himself so clearly foretold. The Catholic Church does not believe this on the contrary, it still awaits the return of Christ. If you decide, on order to be buried next to your dear husband, to return to the church you either would have to, in good faith, deny Bahá'u'lláh or you would be just using the Church as a means to satisfying a desire of your own, which would certainly not be an upright and conscientious thing to do!"

- From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 28, 1950

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 473)

So when we accept Baha'u'llah we are accepting His appearance as the Father..

If the Son of Man was capable of infusing into apparently so crude and helpless an instrument such potency as to cause, in the words of Bahá'u'lláh, "the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth," and to exalt him above the rest of His disciples, and render him fit to become His successor and the founder of His Church, how much more can the Father, Who is Bahá'u'lláh, empower the most puny and insignificant among His followers to achieve, for the execution of His purpose, such wonders as would dwarf the mightiest achievements of even the first apostle of Jesus Christ!

~ "The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 46

It's absurd metaphysics.

There is no Father and there is no Son. They are words used to try to explain how the eternal uncreated dimension of spirit ‘weaves’ and sustains the temporal ‘created’ dimension of nature. Christ as the son represents the ‘sinless’ perfection of spirit manifest in the flesh of nature, as a bridge from man to God.

No matter how some Baha'is whine, I think it's important to keep challenging them about their beliefs and claims.

There's a need to build an increasingly complicated structure of words to justify Baha'u'lla's claims. Whatever contradiction anyone proposes, the Baha'i will find a way to thread and manipulate a way out of it. It's like some sort of challenge, imo.

But I'm not objecting to what they choose to believe as their own religion. My difficulty is when they try to use the New Testament to justify it, by manipulating and cherry-picking. I don't suppose it really matters in the end. But there may be lurkers who don't know much of the NT and would be conned by the Baha'i interpretation.

As I said in #229 Baha'i cannot project Baha'u'llah on his own merits, without linking him to Jesus. Pretend that Jesus and Christianity did not exist, now this guy Baha'u'llah has come along and turned the world on its head. Has he?

Why do they need to keep talking about Jesus? Baha'u'llah should be good enough for them. Why the need to keep linking him to Jesus?

Anyway ...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do they need to keep talking about Jesus? Baha'u'llah should be good enough for them. Why the need to keep linking him to Jesus?

As all the Messengers are One. To reject One, is to reject them all.

They are, One and All, linked being Annointed of God of the Holy Spirit, they are one and all, the "I Am".

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

. Most According to God’s Manifestations the Kingdom of God has many meanings one of them meaning a Divine System voluntarily adopted by humanity.

..........................................................................................................................................
In other words, how can you tell the difference between the fake and the genuine?
You said that you would hold up against the one that is genuine, but how do you know who is genuine?

In the Bible the one who is genuine is: Christ Jesus
How do you know the Bible is Not genuine

In the Bible the Kingdom of God (Daniel 2:44) is a real Government with Christ as King - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26
Jesus' sheep are the ones who voluntarily adopt that Divine System - Psalm 2

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahai can interpret scriptures if they so wish to CG. They cannot give it as an authorised interpretation.

A lot that William Sears offered can be found in authorised translations.

When using those interpretations, they are not wrong.

They might be right even if they are not going off an official interpretation.
It is not as if the central figures of the Baha'i Faith and the UHJ are the only people who can think.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the Bible the one who is genuine is: Christ Jesus
How do you know the Bible is Not genuine

We know that Jesus is genuine. We were not talking about that.
We were talking about which Christians are genuine because you claimed that some Christians are not genuine.