Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

[TransmutingSoul]

Therefore 'the Lamb that was slain and redeemed us of God by his blood' refers to both the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but not to Jesus?

I see It refers to them all Sumadji. Outwardly it is applicable to the Messengers that were slain as part of their given Message, thus both Jesus and the Bab were the Lamb (in the history of Messengers there will be more). The Lamb as an Attribute of the Holy Spirit, is applicable to all the Messengers.

Spoiler: Source if my thoughts

"....Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory. And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.” Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest.

These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”76 It hath therefore become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty. To every discerning eye this is evident and manifest; it requireth neither proof nor evidence.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi and first published in English in 1931.

www.bahai.org

One can also consider that giving ones life is just one form of sacrifice. Baha'u'llah faced over 40 years of sacrificing His life for humanity, a bounty His Family shared. Muhammad was also long suffering as was Abraham and Moses. (All other Messengers also gave thier lives to give the Message God had Annointed them with.)

There is so much to consider on this topic. There are numerous ways to answer your question, that can be given.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

I see It refers to them all Sumadji. Outwardly it is applicable to the Messengers that were slain as part of their given Message, thus both Jesus and the Bab were the Lamb (in the history of Messengers there will be more). The Lamb as an Attribute of the Holy Spirit, is applicable to all the Messengers.

Spoiler: Source if my thoughts

"....Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory. And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace. “But for Thee, I would have not created the heavens.” Nay, all in their holy presence fade into utter nothingness, and are a thing forgotten. Human tongue can never befittingly sing their praise, and human speech can never unfold their mystery. These Tabernacles of holiness, these primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these gems of divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty and grace, are made manifest.

These attributes of God are not and have never been vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy, and chosen Messengers, are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others.”76 It hath therefore become manifest and evident that within the tabernacles of these Prophets and chosen Ones of God the light of His infinite names and exalted attributes hath been reflected, even though the light of some of these attributes may or may not be outwardly revealed from these luminous Temples to the eyes of men. That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it. Therefore, these illuminated Souls, these beauteous Countenances have, each and every one of them, been endowed with all the attributes of God, such as sovereignty, dominion, and the like, even though to outward seeming they be shorn of all earthly majesty. To every discerning eye this is evident and manifest; it requireth neither proof nor evidence.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi and first published in English in 1931.

www.bahai.org

One can also consider that giving ones life is just one form of sacrifice. Baha'u'llah faced over 40 years of sacrificing His life for humanity, a bounty His Family shared. Muhammad was also long suffering as was Abraham and Moses. (All other Messengers also gave thier lives to give the Message God had Annointed them with.)

There is so much to consider on this topic. There are numerous ways to answer your question, that can be given.

Regards Tony

Therefore Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoraster and Muhammad and all the other messengers previous to and following Jesus are all included as 'the Lamb that was slain and redeemed us of God by his blood' though none were slain?

And it is only Baha'u'llah who opens the scrolls -- who also was not slain?

 

[CG Didymus]

Therefore 'the Lamb that was slain and redeemed us of God by his blood' refers to both the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but not to Jesus?

In the Book of Revelation it doesn't refer to Jesus.

I am totally convinced that all this is true... in the minds of Baha'is.

But you know how it is... most all of us think what we believe is the truth. Baha'is are no different, and like some people, they don't just think it, they know their stuff is the truth.

I see It refers to them all Sumadji. Outwardly it is applicable to the Messengers that were slain as part of their given Message, thus both Jesus and the Bab were the Lamb (in the history of Messengers there will be more). The Lamb as an Attribute of the Holy Spirit, is applicable to all the Messengers.

But... the important one... the one we are discussing... the Lamb in the Book of Revelation... that Lamb is not Jesus, but is the Bab.

Therefore Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoraster and Muhammad and all the other messengers previous to and following Jesus are all included as 'the Lamb that was slain and redeemed us of God by his blood' though none were slain?

And it is only Baha'u'llah who opens the scrolls -- who also was not slain?

We could look at the context of each time the "Lamb" and the "Lamb that was slain" is mentioned, but it doesn't matter. The Baha'is will find a way to make it the Bab and not Jesus... Even the verse that mentions the 12 apostles. How they will do it? I don't know? But I know they will. There is no way to argue against them, because they make the rules on how to interpret things.

 

[Sumadji]

In the Book of Revelation it doesn't refer to Jesus.

Right! Thank you. That is something I really didn't know about Baha'i belief. I knew they inserted the Bab and Baha'u'llah into the NT, but not that they excluded Jesus in Revelations and replaced him with their own guys. It certainly simplifies the issue

@CG Didymus
Is it Baha'u'llah himself who declared this?

But the devil is in the details, as they say.

Thanks again


Let's see how they respond to your post #279

 

[idea]

The key word there is 'imagine'. The only way I can think of to make 'everyone equal' ─ I can't even imagine a family where 'everyone is equal' ─ is for everyone to be a follower and for no one to be a leader.

For example, all gregarious species of land animal that I can readily think of, humans not least, form groups that have leaders.

Tuckman's stages of group development - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Performing​

edit
"With group norms and roles established, group members focus on achieving common goals, often reaching an unexpectedly high level of success."[3] By this time, they are motivated and knowledgeable. The team members are now competent, autonomous and able to handle the decision-making process without supervision.

migratory birds rotate leadership; a common example is Canada geese, where individuals take turns flying at the front of the V-formation to conserve energy and share the workload during their long migration flights.

Animals, and human, can exist without heirarchies.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And why again are all the Holy Books sealed? Just because one verse in Daniel says to seal up his prophecies because they are for a later time?

Why would that seal up all the other books of the Bible? Why would it seal up the NT and Quran? Why would it seal up Hindu and Buddhist Holy Books?

And about the Hindu and Buddhist Holy Books... What did Baha'u'llah say about them? And did what he said about them unseal them?

But even the Gospels in the NT... These told about the things that Jesus did. Do Baha'is really believe they were sealed? Or how about all those epistles of Paul? Those too? All sealed up? But probably huh? Since I'm sure Baha'u'llah talks about Paul's writings and talks about the Gospels and tells us about their true meaning.

Humanity was not ready to embrace the Oneness of God.

Apparently most are still not ready.

".....Disunity is a danger that the nations and peoples of the earth can no longer endure; the consequences are too terrible to contemplate, too obvious to require any demonstration. “The well-being of mankind,” Bahá’u’lláh wrote more than a century ago, “its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established.” In observing that “mankind is groaning, is dying to be led to unity, and to terminate its age-long martyrdom”, Shoghi Effendi further commented that: “Unification of the whole of mankind is the hall-mark of the stage which human society is now approaching. Unity of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and fully established. World unity is the goal towards which a harassed humanity is striving. Nation-building has come to an end. The anarchy inherent in state sovereignty is moving towards a climax. A world, growing to maturity, must abandon this fetish, recognize the oneness and wholeness of human relationships, and establish once for all the machinery that can best incarnate this fundamental principle of its life.”

Yes the books were sealed, sealed by humanity’s own neglect of the spiritual morals and virtues, morals and virtues still lacking in the body of humanity. It's immaturity still plain as the noon day sun.

Baha'u'llah also destroyed a large amount of His Revelation to humanity, when Baha'u'llah perceived we were not ready for such an open disclosure of God's Revelation to humanity, how sad that is.

Yet all the righteous will still be bathed in their supppsed spiritual greatness.

Regards Tony

 

[blü 2]

Animals, and human, can exist without heirarchies.

What's your most convincing example with humans?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Animals, and human, can exist without heirarchies.

What's your most convincing example with humans?

It is a statement made that is obviously very narrow and obviously very flawed.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

My apologies for jumping in without reading the thread, especially this far along.
I don't imagine this world will ever see completeness of God's will, however, I do see it as the neverending goal of mankind. IMV, heaven is found in each individual when that goal lives in overwhelming abundance in the heart, mind, and soul.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.
Amen

Yes, ' world without end ' because the ' Earth abides forever ' - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalm 104:5 ; Psalm 24:1-2
Revelation 22:2 does show a beautiful world seeing the completeness of God
This is because of No earthly king, but King Jesus will accomplish the completeness of God for Earth - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
At 2nd Peter 3:5,7,13 we find three (3) heavens and Earth
There was the heavens of OLD verse 5 meaning in Noah's day
There is the heavens of NOW verse 7 meaning from Noah's day to our day
There is the heavens of NEW verse 13 meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth for a thousand years
This is a reason why we are all invited to pray to God asking Him for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Healing as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah
What will end are the wicked ones - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15; Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In the Book of Revelation it doesn't refer to Jesus................................................................................

What does Revelation 1:1,18; 2:8 say if Not Jesus _________________
Who is the Word of God at Revelation 19:13 ____________

 

[CG Didymus]

What does Revelation 1:1,18; 2:8 say if Not Jesus _________________
Who is the Word of God at Revelation 19:13 ____________

I was speaking about what Baha'is claim. Revelation is all about the Baha'i Faith. I argue with them all the time about Abdul Baha's claim that the "three Woes" are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. They make the "two witnesses" Muhammad and Ali. And of course, the Lamb that was slain they say is the Bab. And anytime it mentions the Glory of God, that is about Baha'u'llah.

Then they say the beasts are the Umayyads and Abbasids, with the number 666 being a prophecy about the year the Umayyads took power. Which was actually 661 AD, but Baha'is add 5 years because they say Jesus wasn't born in year zero.

So a remarkable prophecy... Remarkable that Baha'is believe all of this.