Time: Does the Bible say what Time is?

[dybmh]

Does a photon move? Or it is transference of energy?

Can a photon have zero energy?

Edit: Also... Transference implies time.

 

[ChristineM]

Agreed.

Is it a stretch to say: Light depends on Time? Without Time, Light as we know it ( emitted photons/waves/energy ) would not exist?

May not exist, that is an unknown and unknowable

 

[Aupmanyav]

"The photon is a type of elementary particle. It is the quantum of the electromagnetic field including electromagnetic radiation such as light and radio waves, and the force carrier for the electromagnetic force (even when static via virtual particles). The invariant mass of the photon is zero; it always moves at the speed of light in a vacuum.
A photon is massless, has no electric charge, and is a stable particle." Photon - Wikipedia

Carrier of energy, invarient mass zero. Like a copper wire through which electricity/energy flows. Does the wire move? Not even a bit.

 

[dybmh]

May not exist, that is an unknown and unknowable

Thank you!

 

[Twilight Hue]

I noticed how fellow members discussed Time on one of the threads about if life is found on Mars, will we be able to handle it?.
What I found is that various claims are made about the attributes of "Time", and there is a lot of misunderstandings as well as solid facts explained by all.

I thought it will be a nice thread to create to have everyone scrutinizing, not only their opinions, but also mine.
Well, my understanding comes from the Biblical view, because I have learned quite a while ago that using knowledge from this point of view always turns out to be logical and conclusive.
So, Here Go!

Concerning Time, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
And God said, "Let there be light...and it was evening, and morning, the first day..."
Then the Sun, Moon and Stars shone on the Earth on the 4th day, and God said: "... Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years".
And many times God says that He was before Time exists before everlasting and so on. (Isaiah 57:15; psalms 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 103:17)

So, lets see how the Bible describes "Time"!

• Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.
• After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.
• Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.
• The period in which Goid created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".

In otherwords.
God started to create in the beginning. The first matter and space for it to exist in, was the origins of the Universe. God continued to create the universes and the Earth was also part of this creation. However, the Earth was still taking shape from an accreted ball of Solids, Liquids and gases, because the Bible says, the Earth was without shape, and dark and full of water.
Then God said light should come in existance, and the first day kicked off. God then described how Time will be measured with the use of the Earth turning on its axis with the Sun shining on it, creating days.
The Bible also says the Earth and Sun will be the mecanism to count days. seasons, and years!

Now, lets see:
Time does not actually exist, and it is just by accident that the movement of the Earth and Sun plays the role of the clockwork of Time, and that we age and uses this clockwork to determine our age.

Therefore, Time is only a measurement on where the Earth and Sun is in relation to each other.
Before this "First day" existed, Time did not exist!
The Bible calls this time period before day one to the first cause, "In the Beginning", and I always say, if scientists wants to call this period "Billions of years", they are welcome to do so, it is not in contradiction with the Bible.
Actually the Biblical description is way better than the Scientific one.
The Bible say the Universe was created before the Earth in "Zero Time", or before the first day.
Science says, the Universe was created 12.5 Billion years ago, and the Solar System (Earth) only 4.5 billion years ago.

Ok, so if we use the Earth and Sun as clockwork to determine "Time", but the Earth and Sun was absent for 8 Billion years, how does the Scientists measure the time from the beginning to the creation of the earth?
easy, they use imaginary time!

Ok, so Time is a by product of movement of matter in space.
If we have Matter in space, and it remains stationary, down to quantum levels, with no photons moving, everything is a complete standstill, there will not be any "Time" to measure at all.

I think this will give perspective on a thought that God is somehow bound by Time, and He had a Beginning.
God is outside of creation, that is matter moving in space, therefore he does not abide in time at all.

What do you thinkl of my analysis?

I like some of what you had to say.

However God isn't very smart. One day is a thousand years by Earth standards? I don't think so.

Maybe if God's planet revolves really really slow. *Grin*

Besides time will change as the Earth gets older. It's already like that now with time zones.

 

[dybmh]

"The photon is a type of elementary particle. It is the quantum of the electromagnetic field including electromagnetic radiation such as light and radio waves, and the force carrier for the electromagnetic force (even when static via virtual particles). The invariant mass of the photon is zero; it always moves at the speed of light in a vacuum.

A photon is massless, has no electric charge, and is a stable particle." Photon - Wikipedia

Carrier of energy, invarient mass zero. Like a copper wire through which electricity/energy flows. The energy moves at the speed of light in a vacuum. Does the wire move? Not even a bit.

Yes... and try re-writing that same definition without any reference to Time? I don't think it can be done.

If Light exists, Time exists. No?

 

[dad]

I noticed how fellow members discussed Time on one of the threads about if life is found on Mars, will we be able to handle it?.
What I found is that various claims are made about the attributes of "Time", and there is a lot of misunderstandings as well as solid facts explained by all.

I thought it will be a nice thread to create to have everyone scrutinizing, not only their opinions, but also mine.
Well, my understanding comes from the Biblical view, because I have learned quite a while ago that using knowledge from this point of view always turns out to be logical and conclusive.
So, Here Go!

Concerning Time, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
And God said, "Let there be light...and it was evening, and morning, the first day..."
Then the Sun, Moon and Stars shone on the Earth on the 4th day, and God said: "... Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years".
And many times God says that He was before Time exists before everlasting and so on. (Isaiah 57:15; psalms 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 103:17)

So, lets see how the Bible describes "Time"!

• Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.
• After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.
• Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.
• The period in which Goid created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".

In otherwords.
God started to create in the beginning. The first matter and space for it to exist in, was the origins of the Universe. God continued to create the universes and the Earth was also part of this creation. However, the Earth was still taking shape from an accreted ball of Solids, Liquids and gases, because the Bible says, the Earth was without shape, and dark and full of water.
Then God said light should come in existance, and the first day kicked off. God then described how Time will be measured with the use of the Earth turning on its axis with the Sun shining on it, creating days.
The Bible also says the Earth and Sun will be the mecanism to count days. seasons, and years!

Now, lets see:
Time does not actually exist, and it is just by accident that the movement of the Earth and Sun plays the role of the clockwork of Time, and that we age and uses this clockwork to determine our age.

Therefore, Time is only a measurement on where the Earth and Sun is in relation to each other.
Before this "First day" existed, Time did not exist!
The Bible calls this time period before day one to the first cause, "In the Beginning", and I always say, if scientists wants to call this period "Billions of years", they are welcome to do so, it is not in contradiction with the Bible.
Actually the Biblical description is way better than the Scientific one.
The Bible say the Universe was created before the Earth in "Zero Time", or before the first day.
Science says, the Universe was created 12.5 Billion years ago, and the Solar System (Earth) only 4.5 billion years ago.

Ok, so if we use the Earth and Sun as clockwork to determine "Time", but the Earth and Sun was absent for 8 Billion years, how does the Scientists measure the time from the beginning to the creation of the earth?
easy, they use imaginary time!

Ok, so Time is a by product of movement of matter in space.
If we have Matter in space, and it remains stationary, down to quantum levels, with no photons moving, everything is a complete standstill, there will not be any "Time" to measure at all.

I think this will give perspective on a thought that God is somehow bound by Time, and He had a Beginning.
God is outside of creation, that is matter moving in space, therefore he does not abide in time at all.

What do you thinkl of my analysis?

Then there is the issue of whether time exists the same in far space as it does here.

But time is not a by product of objects moving. Time is involved in the moving of matter. Time is not the moving of matter.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes... and try re-writing that same definition without any reference to Time? I don't think it can be done.

If Light exists, Time exists. No?

I am not a physicist. Such questions are very complex. What I read is that "The photon is the gauge boson for electromagnetism, and therefore all other quantum numbers of the photon (such as lepton number, baryon number, and flavor quantum numbers) are zero." Perhaps someone who knows these things could explain it better.

"Elementary particles, whose interactions are described by a gauge theory, interact with each other by the exchange of gauge bosons - usually as virtual particles."
Gauge boson - Wikipedia

 

[dybmh]

I am not a physicist. Such questions are very complex. What I read is that "The photon is the gauge boson for electromagnetism, and therefore all other quantum numbers of the photon (such as lepton number, baryon number, and flavor quantum numbers) are zero." Perhaps someone who knows these things could explain it better.

"Elementary particles, whose interactions are described by a gauge theory, interact with each other by the exchange of gauge bosons - usually as virtual particles."
Gauge boson - Wikipedia

If you don't mind the additional questions:

Time is "maya" for an Advaitist? How does an Advaitist describe Light? Is it an important symbol in Hinduism?

( The reason I ask is that Light is often used as a metaphor in Abrahamic beliefs, but I am not familiar virtually ignorant of Hinduism and Non-Dualism. )

 

[shmogie]

Einstein proved jack-diddly. Anybody who has ever owned more than one clock, made by different manufacturers with differing quality controls, can "prove" that "relative time" (i.e. Time #2) is variable. I had two pocket watches once: one Swiss-made, the other a cheap $2.00 knock-off made in some Asian factory. The knock-off never kept pace/time with the Swiss; sometimes it ticked slower, and sometimes it ticked faster. Was that a mystery? Some woefully uninformed folks might think so. I didn't. A pair of perfectly identical, co-concurrent ticking clocks is a technological achievement.

Add to that the demonstrated fact that two clocks traveling at different speeds relative to a third reference point, do not tick concurrently is a 20th century discovery which continues to boggle a lot of folks' minds. Go figure.

Pocket watches represent relative time ? No, they represent an attempt to measure time. Whether they keep good time, in relation to one another, or the atomic clock in Denver, is irrelevant.

The measurement is not what is being measured, it only represents it to those wanting a measurement.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Pocket watches represent relative time ?

Yep.
Time - Wikipedia

"Time in physics is unambiguously operationally defined as 'what a clock reads'"

A pocket watch is just one of the possible clocks. The atomic clock in Denver is another possible clock. Literally, all clocks in physics are attempts to measure time.

The measurement is not what is being measured, it only represents it to those wanting a measurement.

What does that even mean?

 

[dad]

Yep.
Time - Wikipedia

"Time in physics is unambiguously operationally defined as 'what a clock reads'"

If true, that shows that time cannot be limited to physics. I might ask how physics could measure if any time existed in some section of the universe where there were no clocks?

A pocket watch is just one of the possible clocks. The atomic clock in Denver is another possible clock. Literally, all clocks in physics are attempts to measure time.

Attempts to measure something does not mean such attempts define and compose what is trying to be measured. The mere act of observation does not constitute anything more than observing what is happening or exists or whose effects exist.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You have to u


God is neither male or female, He is referred to as male because at the time of His revelation to humans, a male dominated and controlled society existed.

The rebounding universe is very, very likely a scientific impossibility. Even including dark matter, there isn´t enough matter to create the gravity to pull the universe back together. Unless there is some other mechanism not known with the power to stop the continued faster and faster expansion of the universe, the end result will be a totally dead, totally fragmented universe, with no light, or heat.

So, the rebounding universe these belief systems postulate will not happen.

The universe appears to be a one off deal, as described in Genesis, and God will reshape it long before it dies.

You might want to rethink that 'God is neither male or female'. God is referred to as male because He is male. Society is dominated and controlled by males because God is male.

Jesus Christ, The Son, took on a male body because God is male.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Native]

You might want to rethink that 'God is neither male or female'. God is referred to as male because He is male. Society is dominated and controlled by males because God is male.

It´s the other way around, I think. It was just the Abrahamic cultures which discarded the female part of JHVH, goddess Ashera, and then some cultures became male dominated and skewed and even the translation of the Bible became non sensical in many departments.

 

[shmogie]

You might want to rethink that 'God is neither male or female'. God is referred to as male because He is male. Society is dominated and controlled by males because God is male.

Jesus Christ, The Son, took on a male body because God is male.

Good-Ole-Rebel

God is pure energy and light, do you think He has sexual organs ?

The plan given by God is hierarchical, just like it is in Heaven. On earth the head of the various units including the family is a male.

For humans to relate the heavenly version of this, God is identified as a male.

That is why Christ is a male.

In the case Of God, it is allegorical,symbolic

 

[shmogie]

Yep.
Time - Wikipedia

"Time in physics is unambiguously operationally defined as 'what a clock reads'"

A pocket watch is just one of the possible clocks. The atomic clock in Denver is another possible clock. Literally, all clocks in physics are attempts to measure time.



What does that even mean?

It means what your pocket watch reads on itś dial isn´t time. It is a measurement of time.

If I use a tape measure to lay out a swimming pool, the tape measure isn´t the pool, it is the measurement of the pool.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It´s the other way around, I think. It was just the Abrahamic cultures which discarded the female part of JHVH, goddess Ashera, and then some cultures became male dominated and skewed and even the translation of the Bible became non sensical in many departments.

God is male in the Bible. You can blame it on culture all you want, but it was not culture. God dictated the culture of Israel, and the Church. Culture of pagans did not dictate to God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

God is pure energy and light, do you think He has sexual organs ?

The plan given by God is hierarchical, just like it is in Heaven. On earth the head of the various units including the family is a male.

For humans to relate the heavenly version of this, God is identified as a male.

That is why Christ is a male.

In the case Of God, it is allegorical,symbolic

We are created in the image of God. Correct? If I have sexual organs it is because God does also.

God is identified as male because He is male.

So, God is an allegory? How about Jesus?...Him too?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sealchan]

I noticed how fellow members discussed Time on one of the threads about if life is found on Mars, will we be able to handle it?.
What I found is that various claims are made about the attributes of "Time", and there is a lot of misunderstandings as well as solid facts explained by all.

I thought it will be a nice thread to create to have everyone scrutinizing, not only their opinions, but also mine.
Well, my understanding comes from the Biblical view, because I have learned quite a while ago that using knowledge from this point of view always turns out to be logical and conclusive.
So, Here Go!

Concerning Time, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
And God said, "Let there be light...and it was evening, and morning, the first day..."
Then the Sun, Moon and Stars shone on the Earth on the 4th day, and God said: "... Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years".
And many times God says that He was before Time exists before everlasting and so on. (Isaiah 57:15; psalms 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 103:17)

So, lets see how the Bible describes "Time"!

• Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.
• After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.
• Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.
• The period in which Goid created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".

In otherwords.
God started to create in the beginning. The first matter and space for it to exist in, was the origins of the Universe. God continued to create the universes and the Earth was also part of this creation. However, the Earth was still taking shape from an accreted ball of Solids, Liquids and gases, because the Bible says, the Earth was without shape, and dark and full of water.
Then God said light should come in existance, and the first day kicked off. God then described how Time will be measured with the use of the Earth turning on its axis with the Sun shining on it, creating days.
The Bible also says the Earth and Sun will be the mecanism to count days. seasons, and years!

Now, lets see:
Time does not actually exist, and it is just by accident that the movement of the Earth and Sun plays the role of the clockwork of Time, and that we age and uses this clockwork to determine our age.

Therefore, Time is only a measurement on where the Earth and Sun is in relation to each other.
Before this "First day" existed, Time did not exist!
The Bible calls this time period before day one to the first cause, "In the Beginning", and I always say, if scientists wants to call this period "Billions of years", they are welcome to do so, it is not in contradiction with the Bible.
Actually the Biblical description is way better than the Scientific one.
The Bible say the Universe was created before the Earth in "Zero Time", or before the first day.
Science says, the Universe was created 12.5 Billion years ago, and the Solar System (Earth) only 4.5 billion years ago.

Ok, so if we use the Earth and Sun as clockwork to determine "Time", but the Earth and Sun was absent for 8 Billion years, how does the Scientists measure the time from the beginning to the creation of the earth?
easy, they use imaginary time!

Ok, so Time is a by product of movement of matter in space.
If we have Matter in space, and it remains stationary, down to quantum levels, with no photons moving, everything is a complete standstill, there will not be any "Time" to measure at all.

I think this will give perspective on a thought that God is somehow bound by Time, and He had a Beginning.
God is outside of creation, that is matter moving in space, therefore he does not abide in time at all.

What do you thinkl of my analysis?

I think that it may be the case that the authors of Genesis intentionally left this discrepancy between day and night happening as a solar thing AND as a pre-solar thing in their account. While day and night are the usual understandings of the movement of time based on the movement of these "heavenly bodies" I believe that the authors also wanted to communicate a sense of time beyond that strict association. The incongruous use of day and night before the sun and moon may have been effort to address this sense that time must have pre-existed the sun and moon although there is no language to clearly state this in a direct way. That is, to the audience time and the motion of the sun are inseparable, but the authors of this passage in Genesis recognized that this was not strictly the case. This, discrepancy in the narrative, may have had an air of mystery and fascination for the intended audience. Mystery is and will always be a conveyor of significant truth.

 

[susanblange]

You might want to rethink that 'God is neither male or female'. God is referred to as male because He is male. Society is dominated and controlled by males because God is male.

Jesus Christ, The Son, took on a male body because God is male.

Good-Ole-Rebel

On earth, God will inhabit the body of a woman. The name of God has been kept secret as well as her gender. That is why we don't know the given name of God. If we knew the name of God, we would know the God of Israel is a woman and Israel would've been weakened by it.