• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Time: Does the Bible say what Time is?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The issue is change. With anything that moves, be it in a vacuum or not, in a straight line or not, eternally existing or not, it still changes position. If anything changes then time exists.
Nothing changes, the position, certainly not. Only the amplitude, but that is the inherent property of 'what exists'. That makes it look like a advancing wave. Even in a tsunami where water has gone miles inland, the positions of energy points have not changed. That is the beauty of 'maya'. The observed and the real are completely different. Advaita and science make one realize this. I am here is this space, even after I die, those energy points will still remain there. Only the look of the space will change. It may at one time take the form of my son, if he sits in this chair. Nama (name) and Roopa (form) are transient, that is what Buddha said. My form was in Vyavaharika, the points belong to Paramarthika. I think we have already discussed that 'time' belongs to Vyavaharika, the reality as observed by our senses and mind. Krishna describes the Ultimate reality in this way in Chapter 2 of BhagawadGita:

"ya enaṁ vetti hantāraṁ, yaś cainaṁ manyate hatam;
ubhau tau na vijānīto, nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate."
BhagawadGita 2.19
(Neither he who thinks the living entity the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for this slays not nor is slain)
Chapter Two: Contents of the Gītā Summarized

Please note that Prabhupada's Gita translation has a bias because of his sect's views. Where the original says it or this, Prabhupada makes it the soul; and where it says the supreme, Prabhupada makes it into Krishna, his God.
 
Last edited:

Skwim

Veteran Member
Nothing changes, the position, certainly not.
YOU said "A body moving in vacuum in straight line. It will keep on moving like that . . . ."

moving
noun [ U ]
us
/ˈmu·vɪŋ/
moving noun (GOING)


And just so we're straight here:

-ing is a suffix used to make one of the inflected forms of English verbs. This verb form is used as a present participle, as a gerund, and sometimes as an independent noun or adjective.
And because:

move
/mo͞ov/
noun
a changing of place, position, or state.
Time is created.

Nothing changes, the position, certainly not. Only the amplitude, but that is the inherent property of 'what exists'.
So what? if there's a change in amplitude isn't that a change? OF COURSE IT IS!


Have a good day. I'm through here.

.

 
Last edited:

Yokefellow

Active Member
I would appreciate some examples where the Bible describes Time as a perpetual loop. Thank you.
Sure.

The main thing that most Christians are completely blind on is the fact that reincarnation is Biblical. Because of this, they cannot see how Time is a loop.

In other words, the unsaved keep coming back over and over in an endless cycle of birth/rebirth into the same Timeline.

Here is a verse that describes part of the process...

Ecclesiastes 1:9
"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun"


Most have a very tough time taking the above verse literal, thus they write it off as 'poetry'. It's as literal as can possibly be.

The word 'backsliding' is a term relating to reincarnation...

Jeremiah 8:5
"Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return"


Same with the word 'backward'...

Jeremiah 7:24
"But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward"


It's an allusion to the reincarnation process.

Rivers often represent Time in the Bible...

Ecclesiastes 1:7
"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again"


Ultimately, the Lake of Fire is where the Head meets the Tail of the Ouroboros we are in.

Those tossed into the Lake of Fire go 'backward' and 'backslide' into the past... into the Timeline again.

Somehow the occultists figured this out a long time ago.
 

susanblange

Active Member
Sure.

The main thing that most Christians are completely blind on is the fact that reincarnation is Biblical. Because of this, they cannot see how Time is a loop.

In other words, the unsaved keep coming back over and over in an endless cycle of birth/rebirth into the same Timeline.

Here is a verse that describes part of the process...

Ecclesiastes 1:9
"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun"


Most have a very tough time taking the above verse literal, thus they write it off as 'poetry'. It's as literal as can possibly be.

The word 'backsliding' is a term relating to reincarnation...

Jeremiah 8:5
"Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return"


Same with the word 'backward'...

Jeremiah 7:24
"But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward"


It's an allusion to the reincarnation process.

Rivers often represent Time in the Bible...

Ecclesiastes 1:7
"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again"


Ultimately, the Lake of Fire is where the Head meets the Tail of the Ouroboros we are in.

Those tossed into the Lake of Fire go 'backward' and 'backslide' into the past... into the Timeline again.

Somehow the occultists figured this out a long time ago.
Only the righteous will enter Heaven. We have one life and when our soul dies, we are judged. Death and Hell are permanent. We can only be reincarnated if we go to Heaven.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Time is created.
So what? if there's a change in amplitude isn't that a change? OF COURSE IT IS!
As a lay person and not someone who is a physicist, I would only say that time is involved with space/energy. There are threads on that topics in the forum.
I would not say that may not be true. Perhaps there is an uncertainty angle there too. It could be random like so many other things in the universe. This is not every-day physics. It is physics of the 'Brahman'. :)
 

Yokefellow

Active Member
Only the righteous will enter Heaven.
Truth.

We have one life

There is no verse in the Bible that says that.

Besides... how can One be Born Again if they only get one life?

and when our soul dies, we are judged.

Our body dies first, then judgement. Soul death comes later... after judgment and only for the unsaved.

Scripture calls this the 'Second Death'.

The Spirit however, never dies.

Death and Hell are permanent.

Hell is a parable for the Womb and Reincarnation...

mhp-0703.jpg


You came from the 'Lowest parts of the Earth'.

You came from Hell.

You lived a previous life of sin and were consequently thrown into the Lake of Fire.

You are here to reap what you have sown in that past life.

When Jesus uses the phrase 'Child of Hell' I assume you believe that it is "not literal"???...

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"


Why not believe what Jesus said?

We can only be reincarnated if we go to Heaven.

No comment.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Why do you insert your own words in the Quran to make it sound as if Jesus did not die on the cross?
[3:56]اِذۡ قَالَ اللّٰہُ یٰعِیۡسٰۤی اِنِّیۡ مُتَوَفِّیۡکَ وَ رَافِعُکَ اِلَیَّ وَ مُطَہِّرُکَ مِنَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا وَ جَاعِلُ الَّذِیۡنَ اتَّبَعُوۡکَ فَوۡقَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡۤا اِلٰی یَوۡمِ الۡقِیٰمَۃِ ۚ ثُمَّ اِلَیَّ مَرۡجِعُکُمۡ فَاَحۡکُمُ بَیۡنَکُمۡ فِیۡمَا کُنۡتُمۡ فِیۡہِ تَخۡتَلِفُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 3: Aal-e-`Imran
Right, please?
Regards
Shame on you to change the words of Allah!
The True words of the Quran in English is:
"Oh Isa, I will take you and raise you to myself...."
Why the lies?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
[3:56]اِذۡ قَالَ اللّٰہُ یٰعِیۡسٰۤی اِنِّیۡ مُتَوَفِّیۡکَ وَ رَافِعُکَ اِلَیَّ وَ مُطَہِّرُکَ مِنَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا وَ جَاعِلُ الَّذِیۡنَ اتَّبَعُوۡکَ فَوۡقَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡۤا اِلٰی یَوۡمِ الۡقِیٰمَۃِ ۚ ثُمَّ اِلَیَّ مَرۡجِعُکُمۡ فَاَحۡکُمُ بَیۡنَکُمۡ فِیۡمَا کُنۡتُمۡ فِیۡہِ تَخۡتَلِفُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 3: Aal-e-`Imran
Right, please?
Why do you insert your own words in the Quran to make it sound as if Jesus did not die on the cross?

Shame on you to change the words of Allah!
The True words of the Quran in English is:
"Oh Isa, I will take you and raise you to myself...."
Why the lies?
Did I translate the verse of the Quran?
Don't be angry, please. I gave the original text of the verse of the Quran in Arabic and gave its translation providing the link also. One could access the website and verify it from there that I gave the exact translation from there, please. Will one access the link please?

Regards
___________
Faridul Haque:
Remember when Allah said, “O Eisa! I will keep you alive till your full age, and raise you towards Me, and cleanse you of the disbelievers and give your followers dominance over the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection; then you will all return to Me, so I shall judge between you concerning the matter in which you dispute.”
Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi):
Remember, when Allah said; O Isa! I shall cause you to reach to your full life and I shall raise you towards Myself and I shall purify you from the infidels, and shall give your followers superiority over the rejecters until the Day of Resurrection then you all shall come returning to Me: then I shall decide between you concerning that wherein you dispute'.

Amatul Rahman Omar
(Recall the time) when Allah said, `O Jesus! I will cause you to die a natural death, and will exalt you to Myself and I will clear you of the unchaste accusations of those who disbelieve. I am going to make your followers prevail over the disbelievers till the Day of Resurrection, then to Me (O people!) shall be your return, and I will judge all your differences.
Ahmed Hulusi
And recall when Allah had said, “I’m going to cause you to die (that is, they will not be able to assassinate you through their secret schemes, I will cause you to die when your time comes)... I’m going to raise you to myself (enable you to experience the supremacy of your essence); I’m going to purify you by removing you from among the deniers of the reality (disbelievers) and until Doomsday I’m going to place those who follow you above those who deny the reality. In the end, your return is to Me. I will judge on matters over which you differed between each other.”
al-Imran 3:55
 

susanblange

Active Member
Truth.



There is no verse in the Bible that says that.

Besides... how can One be Born Again if they only get one life?



Our body dies first, then judgement. Soul death comes later... after judgment and only for the unsaved.

Scripture calls this the 'Second Death'.

The Spirit however, never dies.



Hell is a parable for the Womb and Reincarnation...

mhp-0703.jpg


You came from the 'Lowest parts of the Earth'.

You came from Hell.

You lived a previous life of sin and were consequently thrown into the Lake of Fire.

You are here to reap what you have sown in that past life.

When Jesus uses the phrase 'Child of Hell' I assume you believe that it is "not literal"???...

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"


Why not believe what Jesus said?



No comment.
The soul is the body and everybody will die. "Born again" refers to spiritual rebirth. Hell is a Black Hole. It is darkness, freezing cold, hyper-gravity, and a bottomless pit. Angelic spirits are immortal, demonic spirits are not. They will eventually be extinguished and cease to exist. The death of the spirit is the second death and it is also permanent.
 

Yokefellow

Active Member
The soul is the body

According to Scripture, we are made of...

Body
Soul
Spirit


Three separate and distinct parts...

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"


and everybody will die.

No Rapture for you then?

Bummer.

I guess God lied when He said...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"


Be careful what you wish for.

What about Enoch and Elijah? They never died. God lied again?

Lazarus who was raised from the dead only to die again?

Valley of Dry Bones?

Etc. Etc.

Hell is... a bottomless pit.

Did you know that Sarah is referred to as a Pit?

mhp-0841.jpg


The Bottomless Pit is the Womb...

mhp-0845.jpg


It could also be an Egg, Test Tube, Petri dish, etc.

Life originates from the Abyss.
 

susanblange

Active Member
According to Scripture, we are made of...

Body
Soul
Spirit


Three separate and distinct parts...

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"




No Rapture for you then?

Bummer.

I guess God lied when He said...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"


Be careful what you wish for.

What about Enoch and Elijah? They never died. God lied again?

Lazarus who was raised from the dead only to die again?

Valley of Dry Bones?

Etc. Etc.



Did you know that Sarah is referred to as a Pit?

mhp-0841.jpg


The Bottomless Pit is the Womb...

mhp-0845.jpg


It could also be an Egg, Test Tube, Petri dish, etc.

Life originates from the Abyss.
The soul is the body. The Hebrew word for soul is "nephesh" and it means "life". The blood is the life of the flesh, and earth is "the land of the living". We are made of soul, spirit, and mind. The brain is part of the soul and the mind connects the soul and the spirit. Jesus was a necromancer. I do not believe in Christian theology, including the rapture. Christians believe in two or three second comings, but there will only be one on the mount of Olives. Enoch and Elijah did die, they were taken up by God into Heaven.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey said:
[3:56]اِذۡ قَالَ اللّٰہُ یٰعِیۡسٰۤی اِنِّیۡ مُتَوَفِّیۡکَ وَ رَافِعُکَ اِلَیَّ وَ مُطَہِّرُکَ مِنَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا وَ جَاعِلُ الَّذِیۡنَ اتَّبَعُوۡکَ فَوۡقَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡۤا اِلٰی یَوۡمِ الۡقِیٰمَۃِ ۚ ثُمَّ اِلَیَّ مَرۡجِعُکُمۡ فَاَحۡکُمُ بَیۡنَکُمۡ فِیۡمَا کُنۡتُمۡ فِیۡہِ تَخۡتَلِفُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 3: Aal-e-`Imran
Right, please?

Did I translate the verse of the Quran?
Don't be angry, please. I gave the original text of the verse of the Quran in Arabic and gave its translation providing the link also. One could access the website and verify it from there that I gave the exact translation from there, please. Will one access the link please?

Regards
___________
Faridul Haque:
Remember when Allah said, “O Eisa! I will keep you alive till your full age, and raise you towards Me, and cleanse you of the disbelievers and give your followers dominance over the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection; then you will all return to Me, so I shall judge between you concerning the matter in which you dispute.”
Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi):
Remember, when Allah said; O Isa! I shall cause you to reach to your full life and I shall raise you towards Myself and I shall purify you from the infidels, and shall give your followers superiority over the rejecters until the Day of Resurrection then you all shall come returning to Me: then I shall decide between you concerning that wherein you dispute'.

Amatul Rahman Omar
(Recall the time) when Allah said, `O Jesus! I will cause you to die a natural death, and will exalt you to Myself and I will clear you of the unchaste accusations of those who disbelieve. I am going to make your followers prevail over the disbelievers till the Day of Resurrection, then to Me (O people!) shall be your return, and I will judge all your differences.
Ahmed Hulusi
And recall when Allah had said, “I’m going to cause you to die (that is, they will not be able to assassinate you through their secret schemes, I will cause you to die when your time comes)... I’m going to raise you to myself (enable you to experience the supremacy of your essence); I’m going to purify you by removing you from among the deniers of the reality (disbelievers) and until Doomsday I’m going to place those who follow you above those who deny the reality. In the end, your return is to Me. I will judge on matters over which you differed between each other.”
al-Imran 3:55
Use this translation of the Quran which is a Word for Word translation.
All the Muslims who translated the Quran into english did so with whitewashing what it says.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

The reason why the translators and commentators added the words "Natural death", and "Full age", Full life", is because the verse:
4:157 where Muhammad wrote that Jesus was not crucified, nor killed.
The problem is that the verse also say that Allah staged the whole event and deceived the witnesses to the crucifixion.
This is an attempt by the commentators to change the meaning of the Quran to deny that Jesus was crucified.
Please make sure about your quotes and references in future.
Such mistakes allows bad people like me, to put you at a disadvantage in discussions and debates.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Use this translation of the Quran which is a Word for Word translation.
All the Muslims who translated the Quran into english did so with whitewashing what it says.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

The reason why the translators and commentators added the words "Natural death", and "Full age", Full life", is because the verse:
4:157 where Muhammad wrote that Jesus was not crucified, nor killed.
The problem is that the verse also say that Allah staged the whole event and deceived the witnesses to the crucifixion.
This is an attempt by the commentators to change the meaning of the Quran to deny that Jesus was crucified.
Please make sure about your quotes and references in future.
Such mistakes allows bad people like me, to put you at a disadvantage in discussions and debates.
"Please make sure about your quotes and references in future"

Well I did quote the correct reference and link, perhaps one didn't see it or skipped it somehow. It is OK, it happens sometimes. One is a respected member at the Forum, and I have no grievance against any member.
The translation at that site is from Sher Ali, a renowned scholar.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Use this translation of the Quran which is a Word for Word translation.
All the Muslims who translated the Quran into english did so with whitewashing what it says.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

The reason why the translators and commentators added the words "Natural death", and "Full age", Full life", is because the verse:
4:157 where Muhammad wrote that Jesus was not crucified, nor killed.
The problem is that the verse also say that Allah staged the whole event and deceived the witnesses to the crucifixion.
This is an attempt by the commentators to change the meaning of the Quran to deny that Jesus was crucified.
Please make sure about your quotes and references in future.
Such mistakes allows bad people like me, to put you at a disadvantage in discussions and debates.

Since I gave the original text in Arabic, one could check if the translation is accurate.
Now we go in detail about the word "مُتَوَفِّيكَ"
transliterated mutawaffīka , at the site suggested by one.
One should note that every translation is certainly an interpretation or brief commentary done by the translator and is never 100% alternative of the original. Or it is an opinion of the translator. Similarly the word for word translation is also an opinion of the translator.
To err is human, there is some mistake somewhere that needs to be corrected here. Right, please?
About the root of the word مُتَوَفِّيكَ transliterated mutawaffīka given at the site of one's choice is:
The triliteral root wāw fā yā (و ف ي) .
I give some verses and the translation done by the site one has suggested:
(2:234:2) yutawaffawna pass away وَالَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنْكُمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَاجًا يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنْفُسِهِنَّ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ وَعَشْرًا
(2:240:2) yutawaffawna die وَالَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنْكُمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَاجًا وَصِيَّةً لِأَزْوَاجِهِمْ
(3:193:18) watawaffanā and cause us to die
رَبَّنَا فَاغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا وَكَفِّرْ عَنَّا سَيِّئَاتِنَا وَتَوَفَّنَا مَعَ الْأَبْرَارِ
(4:97:3) tawaffāhumu take them (in death)
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ قَالُوا فِيمَ كُنْتُمْ
(7:37:20) yatawaffawnahum (to) take them in death
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا يَتَوَفَّوْنَهُمْ قَالُوا أَيْنَ مَا كُنْتُمْ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ
(7:126:15) watawaffanā and cause us to die رَبَّنَا أَفْرِغْ عَلَيْنَا صَبْرًا وَتَوَفَّنَا مُسْلِمِينَ
(10:46:7) natawaffayannaka We cause you to die وَإِمَّا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِلَيْنَا مَرْجِعُهُمْ
(10:104:21) yatawaffākum causes you to die وَلَٰكِنْ أَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ الَّذِي يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ
(12:101:18) tawaffanī Cause me to die تَوَفَّنِي مُسْلِمًا وَأَلْحِقْنِي بِالصَّالِحِينَ
(13:40:8) natawaffayannaka We cause you to die
وَإِنْ مَا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلَاغُ وَعَلَيْنَا الْحِسَابُ
(16:28:2) tatawaffāhumu take them in death الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ
(16:32:2) tatawaffāhumu take them in death الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ طَيِّبِينَ يَقُولُونَ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمُ
(16:70:4) yatawaffākum will cause you to die وَاللَّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ ثُمَّ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يُرَدُّ إِلَىٰ أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ
(22:5:43) yutawaffā dies
(وَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يُتَوَفَّىٰ وَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يُرَدُّ إِلَىٰ أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُر
(40:77:12) natawaffayannaka We cause you to die فَإِمَّا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِلَيْنَا يُرْجَعُونَ
(47:27:3) tawaffathumu take them in death فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

So the translation of the verse:
(3:55:6) mutawaffīka (will) take you إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

Isn't the translation [(will) take you]without mentioning the (natural) death (of Jesus) as he has done in several other places above, incorrect, please?

Regards
___________
The word مُتَوَفِّي without the attached pronoun كَ in the Google Translate gives the following result:
مُتَوَفِّي deceased
https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=ar&tl=en&text=مُتَوَفِّي
مُتَوَفًّى
dead adj.
لقد أدخلتك ذكرى محامي متوفي قاعة المحكمة هذه You got bullied into that courtroom by the memory of a dead lawyer.
لدينا بحار متوفى في منتزه روك كريك We've got a dead sailor in Rock Creek Park.
deceased adj./n.
و مرفق أسماء الضباط المتوفيين سيدي الرئيس The names of the deceased officers, my president.
عن طريق أرسال البيانات على فرد متوفي التي لديكِ في المبنى Sent over data on a deceased individual you have on the premises.
See how “مُتَوَفًّى” is translated from Arabic to English with more examples in context
مُتَوَفًّى
audio-new.png
adj.
addVocab-new.png
options-new.png

dead
audio-new.png

https://dictionary.reverso.net/arabic-english/مُتَوَفًّى

Translation of "متوفى" in English
See examples translated by dead
>deceased
لدينا بحار متوفى في منتزه روك كريك
We've got a dead sailor in Rock Creek Park.
أهنالك شخصٌ متوفى معيّن ترغبون الحديث معه؟
Is there a particular dead person you want to talk to?
عدد المستفيدين من الأولاد القاصرين أو الأمهات أو الآباء ألمتقدمي السن بالنسبة لكل محارب متوفى
The number of beneficiary minor children or elderly parents for each deceased combatant;
لسوء الحظ السيد "رانير" متوفى
Unfortunately, Mr. Renner's deceased.
متوفى - Translation into English - examples Arabic | Reverso Context
مُتَوَفًّى [mutawaffan]
شَخْصٌ مُتَوَفًّى the deceased (person)
متوفيك - translation into Arabic - dict.com dictionary
 
Last edited:

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Since I gave the original text in Arabic, one could check if the translation is accurate.
Now we go in detail about the word "مُتَوَفِّيكَ"
transliterated mutawaffīka , at the site suggested by one.
One should note that every translation is certainly an interpretation or brief commentary done by the translator and is never 100% alternative of the original. Or it is an opinion of the translator. Similarly the word for word translation is also an opinion of the translator.
To err is human, there is some mistake somewhere that needs to be corrected here. Right, please?
About the root of the word مُتَوَفِّيكَ transliterated mutawaffīka given at the site of one's choice is:
The triliteral root wāw fā yā (و ف ي) .
I give some verses and the translation done by the site one has suggested:
(2:234:2) yutawaffawna pass away وَالَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنْكُمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَاجًا يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنْفُسِهِنَّ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ وَعَشْرًا
(2:240:2) yutawaffawna die وَالَّذِينَ يُتَوَفَّوْنَ مِنْكُمْ وَيَذَرُونَ أَزْوَاجًا وَصِيَّةً لِأَزْوَاجِهِمْ
(3:193:18) watawaffanā and cause us to die
رَبَّنَا فَاغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا وَكَفِّرْ عَنَّا سَيِّئَاتِنَا وَتَوَفَّنَا مَعَ الْأَبْرَارِ
(4:97:3) tawaffāhumu take them (in death)
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ قَالُوا فِيمَ كُنْتُمْ
(7:37:20) yatawaffawnahum (to) take them in death
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا يَتَوَفَّوْنَهُمْ قَالُوا أَيْنَ مَا كُنْتُمْ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ
(7:126:15) watawaffanā and cause us to die رَبَّنَا أَفْرِغْ عَلَيْنَا صَبْرًا وَتَوَفَّنَا مُسْلِمِينَ
(10:46:7) natawaffayannaka We cause you to die وَإِمَّا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِلَيْنَا مَرْجِعُهُمْ
(10:104:21) yatawaffākum causes you to die وَلَٰكِنْ أَعْبُدُ اللَّهَ الَّذِي يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ
(12:101:18) tawaffanī Cause me to die تَوَفَّنِي مُسْلِمًا وَأَلْحِقْنِي بِالصَّالِحِينَ
(13:40:8) natawaffayannaka We cause you to die
وَإِنْ مَا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلَاغُ وَعَلَيْنَا الْحِسَابُ
(16:28:2) tatawaffāhumu take them in death الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ
(16:32:2) tatawaffāhumu take them in death الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ طَيِّبِينَ يَقُولُونَ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمُ
(16:70:4) yatawaffākum will cause you to die وَاللَّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ ثُمَّ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يُرَدُّ إِلَىٰ أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ
(22:5:43) yutawaffā dies
(وَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يُتَوَفَّىٰ وَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يُرَدُّ إِلَىٰ أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُر
(40:77:12) natawaffayannaka We cause you to die فَإِمَّا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِلَيْنَا يُرْجَعُونَ
(47:27:3) tawaffathumu take them in death فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

So the translation of the verse:
(3:55:6) mutawaffīka (will) take you إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

Isn't the translation [(will) take you]without mentioning the (natural) death (of Jesus) as he has done in several other places above, incorrect, please?

Regards
___________
The word مُتَوَفِّي without the attached pronoun كَ in the Google Translate gives the following result:
مُتَوَفِّي deceased
https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=ar&tl=en&text=مُتَوَفِّي
مُتَوَفًّى
dead adj.
لقد أدخلتك ذكرى محامي متوفي قاعة المحكمة هذه You got bullied into that courtroom by the memory of a dead lawyer.
لدينا بحار متوفى في منتزه روك كريك We've got a dead sailor in Rock Creek Park.
deceased adj./n.
و مرفق أسماء الضباط المتوفيين سيدي الرئيس The names of the deceased officers, my president.
عن طريق أرسال البيانات على فرد متوفي التي لديكِ في المبنى Sent over data on a deceased individual you have on the premises.
See how “مُتَوَفًّى” is translated from Arabic to English with more examples in context
مُتَوَفًّى
audio-new.png
adj.
addVocab-new.png
options-new.png

dead
audio-new.png

https://dictionary.reverso.net/arabic-english/مُتَوَفًّى

Translation of "متوفى" in English
See examples translated by dead
>deceased
لدينا بحار متوفى في منتزه روك كريك
We've got a dead sailor in Rock Creek Park.
أهنالك شخصٌ متوفى معيّن ترغبون الحديث معه؟
Is there a particular dead person you want to talk to?
عدد المستفيدين من الأولاد القاصرين أو الأمهات أو الآباء ألمتقدمي السن بالنسبة لكل محارب متوفى
The number of beneficiary minor children or elderly parents for each deceased combatant;
لسوء الحظ السيد "رانير" متوفى
Unfortunately, Mr. Renner's deceased.
متوفى - Translation into English - examples Arabic | Reverso Context
مُتَوَفًّى [mutawaffan]
شَخْصٌ مُتَوَفًّى the deceased (person)
متوفيك - translation into Arabic - dict.com dictionary
Show me one of your translations where Mutawaffika includes the word "Natural"
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
"Please make sure about your quotes and references in future"

Well I did quote the correct reference and link, perhaps one didn't see it or skipped it somehow. It is OK, it happens sometimes. One is a respected member at the Forum, and I have no grievance against any member.
The translation at that site is from Sher Ali, a renowned scholar.

Regards
And all the renowned scholars translates the Quran with their own opinions.
Do you agree when a "Renowned Scholar" dint translate correctly?
Is it fine with you if they add words in the Quran that does not exist?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
And all the renowned scholars translates the Quran with their own opinions.
Do you agree when a "Renowned Scholar" dint translate correctly?
Is it fine with you if they add words in the Quran that does not exist?
The Arabic text is given and the translation is sometimes given with words in italics or in brackets to give a meaningful understanding of the text :
[3:56]اِذۡ قَالَ اللّٰہُ یٰعِیۡسٰۤی اِنِّیۡ مُتَوَفِّیۡکَ وَ رَافِعُکَ اِلَیَّ وَ مُطَہِّرُکَ مِنَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا وَ جَاعِلُ الَّذِیۡنَ اتَّبَعُوۡکَ فَوۡقَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡۤا اِلٰی یَوۡمِ الۡقِیٰمَۃِ ۚ ثُمَّ اِلَیَّ مَرۡجِعُکُمۡ فَاَحۡکُمُ بَیۡنَکُمۡ فِیۡمَا کُنۡتُمۡ فِیۡہِ تَخۡتَلِفُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 3: Aal-e-`Imran
The phrases "natural death" and "the charges of" have been given in italics to show that these are implied from the context of the verse/s or from the other chapters/verses from within the Quran. Right, please?

Regards
 
Last edited:

gnostic

The Lost One
God started to create in the beginning. The first matter and space for it to exist in, was the origins of the Universe. God continued to create the universes and the Earth was also part of this creation. However, the Earth was still taking shape from an accreted ball of Solids, Liquids and gases, because the Bible says, the Earth was without shape, and dark and full of water.
Except, according to Earth science, the Earth wasn’t covered in water.

According to Genesis 1:1-2, the Earth was formed with no form, and yet it was fully covered with water, hence no lands, and no atmosphere. This was followed by creation of light on the first day, creation of atmosphere (dome or vaulted firmament or sky) on the 2nd day, dry land and vegetation on the 3rd day, sun, moon and stars on the 4th day.

Everything about this is wrong, when compared with what science have been able to determine about the Earth.

First off, there can be no water without the atmosphere. The atmosphere have to be there first, even if such atmosphere were very different back then, when Earth was very young and formative. And AT NO TIME, was the Earth EVER COMPLETELY COVERED IN WATER, like what Genesis say in the second verse.

Genesis 1:2 is basically the same as much older recorded myths from Egypt and from Sumer/Akkad/Babylonia. Egypt called this primeval ocean, Nu (or Nun), while in Sumer it was called Nammu and Abzu, but the Akkadian-Babylonian counterpart referred to as Tiamat and Apsu.

According to the Egyptian myth that was prevalent at the time (late 3rd millennium BCE (Old Kingdom period, 3rd to 6th dynasties) to 2nd millennium BCE (both Middle Kingdom (11th & 12th dynasties) and New Kingdom (18th to 20th dynasties)), the sun god was the one who...
  1. ...brought light into the world,
  2. created the first land to rise up from the water,
  3. created moisture (Tefnut) in the air (Shu), hence the sky (Nut),
  4. produced the sun and moon from his eyes,
  5. and from Ra’s tears that have fallen on the land, humans.
The order of Egyptian myth of Ra being the creator are in almost the same order of that Genesis 1, which all started with primeval ocean or the abyss.

The Old Babylonian myth of Marduk in Enûma Eliš, the order of creation is strikingly similar o Genesis 1 order of creation.

What are different is that these pagan myths predated any writing from the ancient Israel/Judah of the 1st millennium BCE. Those books you called collectively as Pentateuch(Torah to the Jews) as the Books of Moses, were composed until 7th and 6th centuries BCE. There were no Moses, no invasion of Canaan, no Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, no Noah and the Flood, and no Adam and Eve.

All of these stories are made up during the time of Josiah to the Exiled/Return periods.
 
Top