tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
But miracles tend to overcome little things like facts. They are also generally observed when no one else is around. Rather convenient, wouldn't you say.
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Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I will continue to be true to myself. It may come as a shock to you but I have already poured over these difficult topics and honestly questioned them, along with the integrity of God Himself. I am convinced that everything YHVH does is for the preservation of humanity. Even when it comes to destruction!
I realize that I seem like a weird person for my beliefs. The truth is I have devoted my life to protecting the innocent, with violence if necessary! I have seen war, disease, child rape and every type of evil imaginable under the sun. Evil, no matter how you want to label it, is real and pervasive. The origins to evil imho is rebellion to YHVH's ways. This is why God was very strict at times and punished those who rebelled. He knows the way this type of rebellion spreads and did not want His people to go down that road. You look at God's judgement of the man "gathering sticks" as a vicious act. But think it through a little bit. This man had just witnessed YHVH redeem Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs and wonders. This man was fully aware of the command and more importantly, fully aware of the true existence of his God!
God commanded His people to obey His commandments exclusively SO that He could use them to destroy others who were committing evil acts (the Canaanites). These people were sacrificing their children on alters and having family orgies during their festivals! The man who was "gathering sticks" was rebelliously turning against God's word and I believe God knew that this type of rebellion would spread if He let it. God decided to take the mans life (which does not mean eternal torture) in hopes of preserving His people from following after Him. BECAUSE His goal was to use this people to destroy humans committing evil acts!
Western society today is full of cowardly logic and wishful thinking pacifism. The greatest evil in our world today is not merely extremist and terrorists. Its a society which is NOT OUTRAGED by the evil acts being committed around the world on a daily basis. Most, like yourself, are not even willing to call it evil anymore! I have combated sex trafficking in a number of countries and let me tell you, it is going on EVERYWHERE. Even in our beautiful and upstanding western nations! People don't care. What they care about is there own little lives and as long as nothing threatens their wealth/livelyhood, they will continue to ignore these issues around them.
Only the God of Israel teaches His people to confront evil wherever they find it. He mandated death for any who offered their sons or daughters to molech. If a woman was rapped, men were responsible to intervene on her behalf! Which is why He commanded the women to "cry out". There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander". Yet today all we have are "innocent" bystanders. None are outraged, and most aren't even aware of the true state of this world! I stand behind every act of calamity that YHVH brought upon this world. Whether by His own hand or the hand of His people. I am honored to serve Yehovah, the only God who truly loves His people and confronts evil!
5How blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, Whose hope is in Yehovah his God, 6Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever; 7Who executes justice for the oppressed; Who gives food to the hungry.Yehovah sets the prisoners free. 8Yehovah opens the eyes of the blind;Yehovah raises up those who are bowed down;Yehovah loves the righteous; 9Yehovah protects the strangers;He supports the fatherless and the widow: But He thwarts the way of the wicked.10Yehovah will reign forever, Your God, O Zion, to all generations.Praise Yehovah! Psalm 146: 5-10
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
No. I have seen numerous miracles. Maybe they don't happen around you because you aren't willing to see them or God for that matter.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Keep on questioning, eventually you will find these positions indefensible.
Wow! Are you some kind of super hero? Anyway, good for you. Maybe, you would have to deal with less sex trafficking if there were not so much religiously supported misogyny out there. The message needs to get out there that it is not OK to degrade women or children. The best way to root out a problem is to cripple it at its source, wouldn't you agree?
Two things:
1. The Sabbath stick rebellion and death were nothing but an anecdotal story invented by the priestly ruling class to scare the faithful into following the rules. Today, we call those urban myths (some things never change, I guess).
2. As mentioned before, one of the perks of the victors is that they get to paint (demonize) their exterminated enemies in any fashion that they want and it generally isn't flattering. I think you may be onto something about children on alters, hey, wait wasn't a Jesus God's son. Well, I guess sacrifice on a cross is way different than an alter.
My, my, those are some pretty broad generalities. I, for one, am pretty outraged when people take violence on each other, whether it be physically or by theft. I also am against governments doing this. But what other 'evil' is it that you speak of (that I am not willing to call evil). My guess is that it when men touch each other inappropriately, well, at least in your opinion, but maybe you can correct me on that one.
Most people, at least in the circles that I run in, find human sacrifice repulsive. No holy book required. It really isn't rocket science here. People know that they would not like to be sacrificed and kind of get the idea that maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to impose that on others. If I had to kill someone to prevent a human sacrifice, you bet. Again, no holy book required. The same thing with a woman being raped. I do have a black belt, so I probably wouldn't need to kill the attacker, just disable him and notify the police. Preventing harm doesn't require some divine revelation.
Of course, that Mosaic law also condemned a woman to death for adultery if she didn't cry out loud enough. But even if she did, for a mere 50 shekels (paid to her daddy), the rapist could marry his victim. You can't make this stuff up, folks.
I am sure that your volcano god will be happy to hear that.
That sounds like a whole bunch of empty promises. You should convey these to the estimated 30 - 50 million civilians that died during WW2, many due to starvation, all were oppressed. Perhaps, these promises were only for the people of Israel? Well, let me paraphrase the great prophet, Dr. Seuse: "A person is a person, even if they aren't a Jew." I think he was talking about "Who's", but you get my point.
At any rate, Yehovah does not deserve praise any more than any of the other mythological entities. If he did exist, and he had the power to prevent such evils, he should be reviled for his actions and lack thereof. For he is either unable to intercede or unwilling.
Since you didn't mention the incest part of my reply, I guess you either didn't have time to get to it or just didn't have a response.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
On the contrary, if I ran across a talking donkey or snake, I would have a video up on YouTube faster than you can stone an evil Sabbath stick collector or adultress, assuming that you still feel those are necessary actions.
Which miracles have you seen? Please share.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Why? What would be your reason for believing me?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Super hero? Really?
Child sex trafficking would still be there even if we got rid of all the religious perverts unfortunately.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Typical. You assume that your modern code of morality has always existed amongst humans. Many societies killed and raped their own children to appease their religious deities. Which is why the God of Israel was so adamant against it. I know you would like to act that if you lived back in their day you would have stood against it. However that is a very difficult thing to be sure of. You would probably have been like most people and adhered to the common morality of the day, which was actually evil. I agree that many humans even then knew it was wrong to not help an person who was in trouble. However, even with this logic, many people would avoid risking their own safety to help. The God of Israel demands that humans intervene, regardless of their own physical well being.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Because in that day a women knew other men would help her! Very different then today's standards. The death penalty was against adultery. A conscious decision to betray one's husband. Not rape. BTW, the man and the woman were to be killed for such actions. I agree with this judgement.
The 50 shekels had nothing to do with rape either. It was to prohibit men from screwing everyones daughters. Which is what goes on today btw. Men were required to make financial restitution and actually MARRY THE WOMEN. Which means he was to care for her and protect her for the rest of his life, as the Torah states.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
Because rapists are known for their caring and protective skill sets, right. He could lock her in a basement and torture her every day, just don't you dare divorce her.
Listen, overall, human rights have improved over the centuries, but it isn't because of any ancient texts. In fact, it is the strongholds of religious fundamentalism where human rights are at their worst and I do not mean Christian fundamentalists. Islamist fundamentalists (with very similar rules) are preventing women from getting educated, or being seen in public and imposing genital mutilation.
On your point of adultery. If your wife cheats on you, it is probably because you are a lousy husband. Get your financial restitution, and get a new wife (Oh, and try to fix your people skills so that one doesn't leave you). This isn't that hard. If you want to sue someone for breach of contract, I think that is more fitting than inviting everyone over for a stoning party, don't you? Do I have to do all the thinking for God? Sheesh!
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
It may exist, but cut by 90%. Since you have dedicated your life to protecting the innocent, this might give you a chance to take a breather, maybe get a cup of coffee. Work smarter, not harder, I always say.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Who said anything about a code, modern or not. I said that people know that they do not like to be raped/killed so using human empathy, they would not want to project that on another. It takes religion/superstition to get people to do things that they would never dream of to another person. Your own brand of superstition, er religion, may have been slightly better than the other ones (but since they have been exterminated, we really don't know), but we find that with less superstition, I mean dogmatic fundamentalism, less people are killed for religious reasons.
By the way, the God of Israel wasn't always so adamant against it. Abraham didn't blink an eye when god asked him to sacrifice Isaac. I know, I know, he didn't go through with it, but the point is, he used it when it fit his purpose. The ultimate point is that your holy book can be used to support or reject just about any premise you want.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Just trying to see how low you set the bar for miracles. Plus, I was hoping you might upload your video of a talking donkey or something really cool like that.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
I appreciate you addressing this. I did giggle a little when I read. "... Until God commanded against it, it was not incest."
That is kind of like saying, those 4 sided figures were not squares until Bob came up with that name.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
This becomes less of an issue when one does not discount the first 3 chapters of Genesis as myth.
With Adam and Eve as real people and with people living for 900+ years at a time before the deluge, the marriages between close relatives was not as likely to create a high percentage of birth defects.
We as a "kind" are degenerating over the generations. Once our genetics broke down enough to shorten our lives to about 70 years, 80 if we are specially mighty, these unions began to be illegal.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Returning a bit to the core of this thread, the original complaint was blaming God for creating/allowing evil, etc. My contention is that god did not create evil, rather it was 'evil' that created god (well, at least the Abrahamic incarnations of god). In this case, I am going to define 'evil' as the desire for men to control/dominate/rule over others. When governments partnered with the clergy, they found that perfect storm. Now, I think the Bible does highlight the struggles that the clergy and monarchs had for that power/control/domination.
Now, Simplelogic, I am going to take your words at face value. You seem to support, or at least supported the penalties of breaking the Mosaic law. I contend that this, packaged with the literal interpretation of the Torah is, in fact very dangerous. We actually have a laboratory where we can test this out. If you want to know what life was like for people in 1500 BC, you don't need a time machine. Fortunately, or unfortunately from my perspective, all you need to do is hop on a plane to Pakistan, where a very similar ideology is in place. Can you honestly say that life is an improvement over what we currently have in the west?
If you think that is an unfair comparison, I invite you to read through some of the Islamic forums. Your arguments are almost identical, just without the 'PBUH' in every other sentence.
Now, my hope is that you are reachable. You may be too invested in your ideology. We humans are a prideful bunch and hate admitting that we might have been duped. Sometimes, that is enough to cause us to gloss over our doubts and misgivings and double-down on our point of view. It happens. But, like I said. I am in this for the long game. I am here to plant the thorny seeds of doubt and let them annoyingly ride up under your saddle. Perhaps, it will have an impact on you. If not, others read these forums and hopefully get to clearly delineate between the mindset of the superstitious compared to a rational approach. I am not saying that I am better than you, no way. I was reared in the culture of superstition as well, but was able to find a way out.
I know that some of my responses may have come across as sarcastic, and they were. There was nothing personal there. Sarcasm and mockery are tools I use to drive home a point.
Now, Simplelogic, I am going to take your words at face value. You seem to support, or at least supported the penalties of breaking the Mosaic law. I contend that this, packaged with the literal interpretation of the Torah is, in fact very dangerous. We actually have a laboratory where we can test this out. If you want to know what life was like for people in 1500 BC, you don't need a time machine. Fortunately, or unfortunately from my perspective, all you need to do is hop on a plane to Pakistan, where a very similar ideology is in place. Can you honestly say that life is an improvement over what we currently have in the west?
If you think that is an unfair comparison, I invite you to read through some of the Islamic forums. Your arguments are almost identical, just without the 'PBUH' in every other sentence.
Now, my hope is that you are reachable. You may be too invested in your ideology. We humans are a prideful bunch and hate admitting that we might have been duped. Sometimes, that is enough to cause us to gloss over our doubts and misgivings and double-down on our point of view. It happens. But, like I said. I am in this for the long game. I am here to plant the thorny seeds of doubt and let them annoyingly ride up under your saddle. Perhaps, it will have an impact on you. If not, others read these forums and hopefully get to clearly delineate between the mindset of the superstitious compared to a rational approach. I am not saying that I am better than you, no way. I was reared in the culture of superstition as well, but was able to find a way out.
I know that some of my responses may have come across as sarcastic, and they were. There was nothing personal there. Sarcasm and mockery are tools I use to drive home a point.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Capitol punishment laws like these require a lengthy legal process under Levitical authority. No man can carry these commandments out now, nor wer
Tied up today. Will get to this shortly.
Sarcasm is fine. It doesn't bother me.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
This is already noted in the book you are presenting arguments with the purpose of eroding credulity with reason.
"All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm. (or "injury; detriment.") - Ecclesiastes 8:9
I well know, O Jehovah, that man's way does not belong to him.
It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
- Jeremiah 10:23
(how can a man rule over another man w/o causing harm when it does not belong to him the ability to even rule over his own self?)
This is noble, and yet it leads me to ask: When taking something like this away you remove a hope that people cherish. What hope do you have to offer in return?
There is the axiom: "The truth will set you free." What are the benefits of this freedom you offer?
(There are benefits whenever reason supplants superstition, so here I am am asking what you see them as.)
The other premise found in your posts that catches my eye, is that all religious belief is credence in superstition.
However the Bible urges us to "Let [our] reasonableness become known to all men." (Philippians 2:5a).
And to use our "power of reason." (Romans 12:1)
I postulate then, that true faith is neither blind nor bull-headed.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Indeed a very nice nugget of observation, these ancient texts are not completely without worth. They do need to be removed from the realm of the mystical, however.
A superb question. My answer is that it is a work in progress. Our governments have evolved from theocracies, into monarchies, into democratic republics and continue to innovate; each step becomes more secular and are intended to be solution oriented. By no means are any of these solutions perfect, but we strive for improvement. My own personal leanings are libertarian, which means, I think the government is still too intrusive in our personal lives, but that is another thread.
I really love this question. One of the most appealing things about revealed religion is that is proposes to know all of the answers. It claims to know what cannot be possibly known. On top of that it promises answers, not just in this life, but for the next life as well, eternally. Those are pretty grandiose and I do not pretend to offer anything that is competitive. Actually, the short answer is that I offer "nothing" to replace that very large, but unrealistic expectation. But it isn't quite nothing. It is an alternative that is actually quite interesting and multi-faceted. Before, I continue, I do have to say that I felt a major apprehension in this transition. I felt like I had lost my safety net. Everything that I thought I knew about the universe was in shambles. That was a much scarier prospect than I had imagined. But the rewards soon made themselves apparent. So, here is what I discovered:
First of all, there is honesty. I can't begin to describe how refreshing this is. You enter a phase of honest, self-discovery, not using any preconceived ideas. If you take a pause, it is interesting to see all the different points of view and see how many are similar. The obvious conclusion is that they all can't be right, in fact, maybe none of them are.
Second: This life is important. Warning! Anecdote coming! My mother was so consumed in the promise of the next life that she completely disregarded and wasted the life that was right in front of her. Desperately, she preached at me, warning me of hell. As we continued to discuss over the years, she finally confessed that she really now had many doubts, but had been a Christian so long that she was too old and afraid to change her mind. To me there is nothing more tragic than seeing a person forfeit their life for the promise of the next one. So, my attitude is that I only get one shot, so I need to make this life as exciting and meaningful as possible. Another observation of mine is I have noticed that Christians are just as afraid of death as anyone else, maybe moreso.
Third: Discovery! I never realized it, but there is something liberating about saying, "I don't know." A question like,' what is the meaning of life?' is a great place to start. I used to "know". God had some plan for me and it was, 'xyz'. You know the script. Now, I discovered that I was an individual. The meaning of life is unique to me. I was no longer bound by any creed or expectation. It was like peeling a film off my eyes. I was seeing the world around me in a clarity I had never experienced.
During this process, I morphed from structured theist to deist to agnostic to atheist, I guess. But that really isn't a useful term. It is rather like being a-unicornist. I don't believe in unicorns, but that isn't what defines me.
So, "nothing" is actually a pretty exciting prospect when you think about it.
I am sorry if it was such a long answer for a short question, but the topic is pretty dear to me.