Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

[Sleeppy]

If I was crushing on my near perfect wife, I might have chosen to die with her instead of living w/o her. Perhaps Adam did not realize that he would be permitted to grow old. Perhaps he thought he would die within that very 24 hr day instead of about 900 years later. A 1000 years to Jehovah is but a day when looking back. And Jehovah did keep his word. Adam did die spiritually the day he sinned, and physically within a day as Jehovah views time.

Really Adam neglected to love God more than the creation. And once he too sinned he started to save face, blaming Eve and God for his own actions.

"The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate." - Ge 3:12

I like this interpretation. But it seems off. They were both told not to eat. They ate together. And only the female was made into a fool? Timothy shouldn't single Eve out, when God reprimanded Adam for listening to foolishness as well.

For an eternal being, 1000 years is what? A day? -- A 1000 years is infinitely smaller in comparison to the Eternal. How old is the Universe? What happened before the "Big Bang?" If our physical laws reflect time, what happens when you exist both inside of, and outside of creation? --If God does not change, God maintains. If God creates, He's been creating forever, and will continue.

But how is time perceived? If physical laws differed at the beginning, how was the passage of time when Earth wasn't here to benefit and take measure? Is spacetime sucked into a black hole?

 

[Kolibri]

I like this interpretation. But it seems off. They were both told not to eat. They ate together. And only the female was made into a fool? Timothy shouldn't single Eve out, when God reprimanded Adam for listening to foolishness as well.

For an eternal being, 1000 years is what? A day? -- A 1000 years is infinitely smaller in comparison to the Eternal. How old is the Universe? What happened before the "Big Bang?" If our physical laws reflect time, what happens when you exist both inside of, and outside of creation? --If God does not change, God maintains. If God creates, He's been creating forever, and will continue.

But how is time perceived? If physical laws differed at the beginning, how was the passage of time when Earth wasn't here to benefit and take measure? Is spacetime sucked into a black hole?

Paul's writing in 1 Timothy is based off of other scripture. We read about Adam's excuse. What was Eve's?
Jehovah God then said to the woman: "What is this you have done?" The woman replied: " The serpent deceived me, so I ate." - Ge 3:13

Being the younger of the two, she actually believed God was holding something back from her that was worth envying. She actually believed the lie. Only after she ate did she take some to her husband.
"But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity (or "purity.") that are due the Christ." - 2 Corinthians 11:3

"Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it. - Ge 3:6
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The longer view of time is found in these 2 passages:
For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,
Just as a watch during the night.
- Psalm 90:4

"However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." - 2 Peter 3:8

 

[Sleeppy]

You are assuming that God is evil in nature and wanting to set His creation up for failure. Yet the whole Tanakh shows God trying to intervene and rescue His stubborn creation.

Of course Adam knew the consequences. Their desire to be "like God" was evil in nature and the core reason for all the rest of humanities sins.

Adam already knew what death was. Eve clearly stated that she knew it would cause her death. The serpent lied and told her she wouldn't die. There is no confusion in the text regarding the knowledge of death. They simply chose to believe the serpent over their God who walked and talked with them intimately in the garden.

Isaiah 55:11 So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it.

God is whole, and unchanging . Creation is the illusion of many, of duality, of diversity, of time, of change. -- You're assuming that God fails. With God all things are possible. The only impossibility is failure.

-- Their wanting to be like God, required worship. They would need reason to have such a want- except perhaps due to His absense. They were left to be independent. But after searching themselves for His likeness, they were lacking. This lack gave them the curiosity, and the incentive to search for their God in themselves. And we do this, to this day. We go by trial and error, until the Son of Man is glorified.

The text doesn't say Adam knew about death. Eve knew what God said, but didn't necessarily know about death. Either neither of them trusted God's warning, or they had reason to subvert the warning. So again, the question becomes, why was the serpent's misinformation effective? Why did Eve observe a fruit that she was inclined towards, calling it good to eat, and pleasing to the eye? Why is there an attractive, deadly tree in God's creation? Did it serve a purpose?

 

[Kolibri]

The text doesn't say Adam knew about death. Eve knew what God said, but didn't necessarily know about death. Either neither of them trusted God's warning, or they had reason to subvert the warning. So again, the question becomes, why was the serpent's misinformation effective? Why did Eve observe a fruit that she was inclined towards, calling it good to eat, and pleasing to the eye? Why is there an attractive, deadly tree in God's creation? Did it serve a purpose?

Why would God give them a warning that they could not understand? Would that not be unloving? Yet we are assured that "God is love." (1Jo 4:8b)
Eve ended up doing the same thing the personage behind the serpent did. He kept looking at the worship that was due God and feeding the desire to take it for himself where he thought he could.
"When under trial, let no one say: 'I am being tried by God.' For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed (or "caught as by bait.") by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, (Lit., "has conceived.") gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death." - James 1:13-15

Eve knew of the existence of the tree before the serpent lied to her. But it was not a focus for her eyes till he made it seem worthy of theft.
"At this the woman said to the serpent: 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: "You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die."'" - Ge 3:2,3

The tree served the purpose of reminding Adam and Eve that God has the right to rule, and that they were not designed to live independent from his care.
I well know, O Jehovah, that man's way does not belong to him.
It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.
- Jeremiah 10:23

 

[Sleeppy]

Why would God give them a warning that they could not understand? Would that not be unloving? Yet we are assured that "God is love." (1Jo 4:8b)
Eve ended up doing the same thing the personage behind the serpent did. He kept looking at the worship that was due God and feeding the desire to take it for himself where he thought he could.
"When under trial, let no one say: 'I am being tried by God.' For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed (or "caught as by bait.") by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, (Lit., "has conceived.") gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death." - James 1:13-15

Eve knew of the existence of the tree before the serpent lied to her. But it was not a focus for her eyes till he made it seem worthy of theft.
"At this the woman said to the serpent: 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: "You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die."'" - Ge 3:2,3

They understood the immediately relevant portion of the warning, "Do not", because it began with trust. Trust, or knowledge of God would have permitted them to obey with certainty. I trust that fire burns, and that God ordained its function. I don't test the fire, and I don't test God. -- Eve didn't know enough to prevent being burned. A dog knows by instinct alone.

God doesn't try anyone. I agree. Neither with evil, nor by Himself. God ordains.

There was no reason for Eve to be attracted to something unattractive. The fruit looked good and pleasing, obviously the "wisdom" she sought was in reverence to the goodness of God. Wisdom would not be intended for evil, but for the same goodness God had ordained for them while in their presence. Eve either did not trust God's word, or she operated from ignorance. And mistrust of God would require a type of ignorance, as well.

 

[Sunstone]

I have seen numerous posts lately which claim that God is responsible for evil and suffering on earth. I understand this kind of logic and believe much of typical Christian doctrine actually supports this sad way of thinking. To many people God is a being who is omniscient and timeless. He is also seen as someone who micromanages free will and even ordains evil actions! Most believe that this (ordained evil) is justified because its all part of a intricate plan which will eventually lead men back to God. Sigh...

I am not a Christian, nor do I fall under normative Judaism. However I am willing to debate the following items concerning the Hebrew scriptures. My positions are as follows:

1. God is not outside of time
2. God is not omnipresent nor omniscient but can be in multiple places at once.
3. God did not make or create evil
4. God does not claim to predestine mans fate
5. God does not know what we are going to do (specifically)

I would be happy to debate any of these statements with any and all who wish to debate them. I am even willing to state publicly that if it can be proven, from the Hebrew scriptures, that God is outside of time and predestining the will of man then I will formally and publicly renounce the God of Israel who's name is Yehovah.

Note: As many already know, I don't regard Paul's letters as scripture. I recognize that Paul did believe in a predestining God who is outside of time. My argument will be made with the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) as well as any NT writing which was not written or influenced by Paul.

You're tired of the problem of evil, huh? Well, your fatigue is going to do nothing at all to change the fact the problem is very real.

 

[Ingledsva]

Here comes the kicker….

They actually already had knowledge of good and evil!!!! They just had never followed through with it. Why was Adam hesitant to listen to his wife? Was it not because he knew what he was about to do was wrong? The tree's fruit didn't do anything to Adam and Eve. It was their conscious choice to CHOOSE evil.

Baloney, you're adding crap.

Bible says they were told not to eat of that tree - so - obviously they would have no KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, until AFTER they ate of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

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[Ingledsva]

Obviously this is dualistic in style. The King of Tyre and lucifer are being mentioned here:

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Was the prince of Tyre in the garden of Eden?

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Why call the prince of Tyre an anointed cherub? Nor did the prince of Tyre get anywhere near the "holy mountain" nor the "stones of fire".

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Was the prince of Tyre "perfect in his ways"?

No Satan is NOT! And there is NO Lucifer.

This is a Hebrew text about a King, - all other Satan crap is the usual Christian mistranslation of Hebrew texts, and them trying to hijack those texts, to make them say what they want.

Read the Jewish literature on this verse.

Only Christians want it to be about their invented evil autonomous Satan.

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[Ingledsva]

Eve knew the consequences before hand:

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” Gen 3:2

Look how Adam acts after the fact:

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me, she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” Gen 3:12

Blamed it on the woman. He already knew it was wrong to begin with!

What blame? It sounds like he stated a fact.

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[Ingledsva]

What if He is wiser than us and knows that our obedience to His ways actually makes us healthier. What if He is asking all of this things for our benefit?

No way! Such laws are just ridiculous, and killing people for not attending Temple is murder.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

You are assuming that God is evil in nature and wanting to set His creation up for failure. Yet the whole Tanakh shows God trying to intervene and rescue His stubborn creation.

Of course Adam knew the consequences. Their desire to be "like God" was evil in nature and the core reason for all the rest of humanities sins.

Adam already knew what death was. Eve clearly stated that she knew it would cause her death. The serpent lied and told her she wouldn't die. There is no confusion in the text regarding the knowledge of death. They simply chose to believe the serpent over their God who walked and talked with them intimately in the garden.

Actually it shows him murdering, and enslaving, like an angry, spiteful, skitzo, = like man, - because the Bible is written by man, - and they wrote themselves in to their God idea.


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[Kolibri]

What blame? It sounds like he stated a fact.

*

Adam was passing the buck. He was not taking responsibility for his error. David, although imperfect, did better than he did.

David then said to Nathan: "I have sinned against Jehovah." - 2 Samuel 12:13

Show me favor, O God, according to your loyal love.
Blot out my transgressions according to your great mercy.
Thoroughly was me from my error,
And cleanse me from my sin.
For I am well-aware of my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me. (or "on my mind.")
Against you - you above all (Lit., "only you.") - I have sinned;
What is bad in your eyes I have done....
- Psalm 51

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
1. God is not outside of time
...

OK .. one thing at a time..

Almighty God created the universe .. time-space..

His 'point of reference' would therefore not be the same as ours .. this is a scientific fact..
..well, according to the 'likes' of Einstein, in any case

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'outside of time' .. time is relative .. you know, it's connected with motion .. in fact, that's how we define it..

So your initial premise is not correct, imo

 

[Simplelogic]

OK .. one thing at a time..

Almighty God created the universe .. time-space..

His 'point of reference' would therefore not be the same as ours .. this is a scientific fact..
..well, according to the 'likes' of Einstein, in any case

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'outside of time' .. time is relative .. you know, it's connected with motion .. in fact, that's how we define it..

So your initial premise is not correct, imo

Was Einstein right

 

[Simplelogic]

Actually it shows him murdering, and enslaving, like an angry, spiteful, skitzo, = like man, - because the Bible is written by man, - and they wrote themselves in to their God idea.


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Murder? No. YHVH did bring calamity upon evil humans. As He will again in our day. Enslaving? You choose to read your feminist biased into the text and assume that just because women were subservient, they were horribly treated. You relabel marriage as rape and pretend that every man in history was some crazy misogynistic monster, hell bent on controlling woman. I think I know exactly why you are so against the Hebrew scriptures:

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your labor pains; with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you." Gen 3: 16

It seems like you have a lot of reason to discredit the God of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[Simplelogic]

What blame? It sounds like he stated a fact.

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Then why did the serpent tell her that "she would not die"? This obviously means that Eve knew what death was. The serpent simply convinced Eve that God had lied to them. Plain and simple. It was also Eve's lust for power which caused her sin..once again, evil.

6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Gen 3: 6

 

[muhammad_isa]

Was Einstein right

"Einstein’s theory of general relativity is bankrupt of any reality"

That's a laugh !

 

[Sleeppy]

Then why did the serpent tell her that "she would not die"? This obviously means that Eve knew what death was. The serpent simply convinced Eve that God had lied to them. Plain and simple. It was also Eve's lust for power which caused her sin..once again, evil.

6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Gen 3: 6

Let me ask you a few questions.


1) What is wisdom?
2) What made/makes wisdom desirable?
3) a. What is dying? b. What is death?
4) Why had God conceded, "they have become as one of Us"?
5) a. If they had become as one of Them/God, "as to the knowledge of good and evil," why were they guarded from the tree of life?
b. Why were they prevented from becoming like Them/God, as to good and evil?
c. Who are the others God includes with Himself?
d. What knowledge of evil did these "others" possess, along with God?
6) Why wasn't the tree they were forbidden to eat from being guarded in the same manner as the tree of life?
7) a. Where did the serpent receive its information (both true and false)?
b. What incentive did the serpent have to contradict God, and persuade man to do the same?

 

[Simplelogic]

"Einstein’s theory of general relativity is bankrupt of any reality"

That's a laugh !

Which part of the link did you disagree with?

 

[Simplelogic]

Let me ask you a few questions.


1) What is wisdom?
2) What made/makes wisdom desirable?
3) a. What is dying? b. What is death?
4) Why had God conceded, "they have become as one of Us"?
5) a. If they had become as one of Them/God, "as to the knowledge of good and evil," why were they guarded from the tree of life?
b. Why were they prevented from becoming like Them/God, as to good and evil?
c. Who are the others God includes with Himself?
d. What knowledge of evil did these "others" possess, along with God?
6) Why wasn't the tree they were forbidden to eat from being guarded in the same manner as the tree of life?
7) a. Where did the serpent receive its information (both true and false)?
b. What incentive did the serpent have to contradict God, and persuade man to do the same?

Let me try to answer:

1) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever. Psalm 111:10

2) The desire usually comes from man wanting to attain wisdom apart from obeying God. Which is exactly what Eve did.

3) The absence of life

4 and 5) Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever " Gen 3:22

Man now understood what evil was. Death (separation from God) entered the world. God's goal was to have man live forever. Man brought separation from God into this world and God decided to block the Tree of life for mans benefit. He didn't want men to live forever in this separated state.

6) The Tree of life was not guarded until after man separated from God's presence. Once again, this act was to prevent men from living forever in a separated/fallen state. (Not the same concept as original sin btw)

7) Wonderful question. There was someone else in the garden!

13“You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.

14“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

15“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. Ezekiel 28: 13-15

8)I believe he was the covering Cherub who either appeared as the serpent or convinced the serpent. The goal was authority over the earth. Man was given authority over this creation by God Himself. Man owned the world technically….not God! Man ended up handing over the title deed to this world to that Cherub who deceived.