Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

[Deidre]

No….man is responsible for doing good or evil

If God created robots and programmed them then He would be responsible.

But, he knows mankind's limitations, vulnerabilities and weaknesses. He created human nature.
Why would a god punish his own creation, that he gave the ability to do evil deeds? I agree, that man is responsible for what he does/doesn't do...but God should not punish man for well, being human. (considering he created human nature, is more of my point)

 

[Simplelogic]

The law that someone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death seems kind of evil to me. How is someone working on a certain day, not hurting anyone, deserving of death?

My main problem with the Abrahamic god though is that according to the scriptures humanities only worth to god seems to be in us mindlessly groveling to and obeying him. He definitely has no problem wiping out anyone who displeases him. Which raises the question of why such a god would create creatures to worship and grovel before him that were inherently rebellious? Does that mean god is insane?

What if He is wiser than us and knows that our obedience to His ways actually makes us healthier. What if He is asking all of this things for our benefit?

 

[Simplelogic]

But, he knows mankind's limitations, vulnerabilities and weaknesses. He created human nature.
Why would a god punish his own creation, that he gave the ability to do evil deeds? I agree, that man is responsible for what he does/doesn't do...but God should not punish man for well, being human. (considering he created human nature, is more of my point)

I don't believe in eternal punishment. But God does bring calamity on evil people. Partly it is to protect other innocent humans from suffering because of them. God is completely just to do this because man had the option and potential to choose different.

 

[JustWondering]

No….man is responsible for doing good or evil

If God created robots and programmed them then He would be responsible.

Humans are programmed though. We are programmed to eat when we are hungry. Sleep when tired. Run and/or hide when afraid. Fight when angry. Feel frustration when we fail. We did not design our central nervous system, that determines all our decisions. We did not create the world and what is in it, god did. He created and set everything in motion. Free will does not exist.

 

[Simplelogic]

Humans are programmed though. We are programmed to eat when we are hungry. Sleep when tired. Run and/or hide when afraid. Fight when angry. Feel frustration when we fail. We did not design our central nervous system, that determines all our decisions. We did not create the world and what is in it, god did. He created and set everything in motion. Free will does not exist.

ok….you can believe that. My argument is that the Hebrew scriptures teach otherwise.

 

[JustWondering]

What if He is wiser than us and knows that our obedience to His ways actually makes us healthier. What if He is asking all of this things for our benefit?

Killing someone seems the opposite of promoting health. So why don't you actually defend your position by describing how a healthy community is promoted by killing people for working on a certain day.

 

[Deidre]

I don't believe in eternal punishment. But God does bring calamity on evil people. Partly it is to protect other innocent humans from suffering because of them. God is completely just to do this because man had the option and potential to choose different.

That's interesting, thank you for your response - so do you believe that God brings calamity through the principle of reaping what we have sown? Or...is our own suffering a mere byproduct of our poor choices? (similar concepts)

 

[JustWondering]

ok….you can believe that. My argument is that the Hebrew scriptures teach otherwise.

I believe that reality doesn't mesh with what the Hebrew scriptures teach.

 

[Kolibri]

The law that someone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death seems kind of evil to me. How is someone working on a certain day, not hurting anyone, deserving of death?

My main problem with the Abrahamic god though is that according to the scriptures humanities only worth to god seems to be in us mindlessly groveling to and obeying him. He definitely has no problem wiping out anyone who displeases him. Which raises the question of why such a god would create creatures to worship and grovel before him that were inherently rebellious? Does that mean god is insane?

One has to keep in mind Isaiah 48:17,18. Jehovah is teaching us to benefit ourselves. We are promised that if we would only pay attention to his commandments then our peace would become like a river and our righteousness like the waves of the sea.

What did the Sabbath do? It did not require the Israelites not to work. It required them to desist from their own works. This was time to focus on the spirit of the Law of showing mercy and love towards both God and man. Early on in the keeping of the Law there was a man that went out and gathered wood on a Sabbath. The Israelites did not know what to do, so they put the decision in Jehovah's hands. The man was stoned to death, not because he was gathering wood but because he deliberately rejected God's Law. He made a choice likely as deliberate as did Adam to rebel.

There was another reason for still penalties. God can and will resurrect people. In the vast majority of cases up until Armageddon, death is only temporary. The strict penalty reinforced that they needed honor Jehovah and his beneficial decrees. This would protect the rest of them from excessive harm because they would see and hear of it and take the warning to heart. It emphasized how important and potentially beneficial the law was.

 

[Sleeppy]

Regarding time: Was Einstein right

Who authored this?

You're accepting this unfounded position, when Einstein's theories actually have experimentation keeping them alive.

Gravitational time dilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NASA - NASA's Gravity Probe B Confirms Two Einstein Space-Time Theories

The End of Time

 

[Sleeppy]

Here comes the kicker….

They actually already had knowledge of good and evil!!!! They just had never followed through with it. Why was Adam hesitant to listen to his wife? Was it not because he knew what he was about to do was wrong? The tree's fruit didn't do anything to Adam and Eve. It was their conscious choice to CHOOSE evil.

They actually didn't know what they were doing was evil, until the consequences became associated with the act. They trusted God, but did not know God with enough certainty to heed the one particular warning.

You're assuming Adam and Eve knew God completely. You're assuming their trust of God was absolute. You're assuming that they knew what dying, and death were. You're assuming that they were not easily manipulated. You're assuming that they both wanted to commit suicide by eating a particular fruit.

 

[JustWondering]

The man was stoned to death, not because he was gathering wood but because he deliberately rejected God's Law. He made a choice likely as deliberate as did Adam to rebel.

When religious people like you start making excuses for how murdering in the name of religion is justified it makes me proud to be an atheist. How is this any different from terrorists killing people they think are infidels? I'm sorry but gathering wood is not deserving of a death sentence regardless of the circumstances or what an invisible sky daddy says. But then, logic, common sense and basic human compassion doesn't mean squat to a true believer if it contradicts their precious fairy tales, oops, I mean religion.

 

[Kolibri]

You're assuming that they knew what dying, and death were

The animals were never intended to live forever. Certainly there were old and young among these ones. Plant life too lives and dies. All this would have been observable.

 

[Sleeppy]

The animals were never intended to live forever. Certainly there were old and young among these ones. Plant life too lives and dies. All this would have been observable.

We don't know what was dying, or if anything was dying at all. -- But if they had seen these plants and animals dying, what knowledge would they receive from those observations? Would this knowledge be enough, on its own to discourage further curiosity (as was displayed by Eve)?

 

[Kolibri]

We don't know what was dying, or if anything was dying at all. -- But if they had seen these plants and animals dying, what knowledge would they receive from those observations? Would this knowledge be enough, on its own to discourage further curiosity (as was displayed by Eve)?

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was befooled into violation of the command." - 1 Timothy 2:13,14 Byington

 

[Sleeppy]

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was befooled into violation of the command." - 1 Timothy 2:13,14 Byington

Interesting. I wonder what the author of Timothy thought Adam's incentive was, if in fact he was not fooled, but ate intentionally.

 

[Kolibri]

Interesting. I wonder what the author of Timothy thought Adam's incentive was, if in fact he was not fooled, but ate intentionally.

If I was crushing on my near perfect wife, I might have chosen to die with her instead of living w/o her. Perhaps Adam did not realize that he would be permitted to grow old. Perhaps he thought he would die within that very 24 hr day instead of about 900 years later. A 1000 years to Jehovah is but a day when looking back. And Jehovah did keep his word. Adam did die spiritually the day he sinned, and physically within a day as Jehovah views time.

Really Adam neglected to love God more than the creation. And once he too sinned he started to save face, blaming Eve and God for his own actions.

"The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate." - Ge 3:12

 

[Simplelogic]

They actually didn't know what they were doing was evil, until the consequences became associated with the act. They trusted God, but did not know God with enough certainty to heed the one particular warning.

You're assuming Adam and Eve knew God completely. You're assuming their trust of God was absolute. You're assuming that they knew what dying, and death were. You're assuming that they were not easily manipulated. You're assuming that they both wanted to commit suicide by eating a particular fruit.

You are assuming that God is evil in nature and wanting to set His creation up for failure. Yet the whole Tanakh shows God trying to intervene and rescue His stubborn creation.

Of course Adam knew the consequences. Their desire to be "like God" was evil in nature and the core reason for all the rest of humanities sins.

Adam already knew what death was. Eve clearly stated that she knew it would cause her death. The serpent lied and told her she wouldn't die. There is no confusion in the text regarding the knowledge of death. They simply chose to believe the serpent over their God who walked and talked with them intimately in the garden.

 

[Simplelogic]

Interesting. I wonder what the author of Timothy thought Adam's incentive was, if in fact he was not fooled, but ate intentionally.

I dont put much stock in Timothy

 

[Simplelogic]

That's interesting, thank you for your response - so do you believe that God brings calamity through the principle of reaping what we have sown? Or...is our own suffering a mere byproduct of our poor choices? (similar concepts)

The latter. God has no need for man to suffer at all.