Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

[Simplelogic]

doubt here. but I expect we will get back to this eventually.

Haha.....we shall see my friend. This is one issue I don't even need to argue. Just read Romans 9 and get a vomit bag ready.

 

[JayJayDee]

Lets look at this from another perspective. God communicated with Yeshua regularly through angelic visitations. These same angels have capabilities much greater than we do and could easily inform Yeshua about the Samaritan woman. I don't see this as proof for God knowing our thoughts personally.

Matthew 9:1-8...."Getting into a boat, Jesus crossed over the sea and came to His own city. And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” And he got up and went home. But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men."

Looks like Jesus knows their thoughts.

 

[Simplelogic]

Matthew 9:1-8...."Getting into a boat, Jesus crossed over the sea and came to His own city. And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” And he got up and went home. But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men."

Looks like Jesus knows their thoughts.

I wouldn't read it that literally. I think Yeshua simply knew they were judging him because he knew that what he was saying was clashing with their false belief system.

 

[Simplelogic]

I think the holman Christian standard bible gets it the best:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But perceiving their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts?

 

[Kolibri]

Haha.....we shall see my friend. This is one issue I don't even need to argue. Just read Romans 9 and get a vomit bag ready.

just reread it. I am expecting your issue to be with the passages about Pharoah, Jacob and Esau. Is there something else in this chapter what stands out to you as objectionable? Not needing a detailed response,..just the highlights

 

[JayJayDee]

This is exactly what I just said. No, I don't agree that in everything there is an equal opposite. This is pagan philosophy which Christianity has adopted over the years. Many eastern pagan religions promote this concept, like Taoism with its yin yang. Equal light and equal darkness. Good and evil are necessary companions…etc.

Well actually I was basing the conclusion on science, not religion. It matters little what paganism teaches in this aspect I feel. Think of all the opposites we know and then apply it to everyday life. Its a fact...nothing to do with religion.

I'm not sure if you want to bring Paul into this argument. It can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul believed in an ultra sovereign view of God who micromanages free will and elects humans for salvation and destruction. Paul was one of the many who succumbed to pagan philosophy in the first century.

I don't accept that for several reasons. Paul is a problem only to those who have views that he did not promote. And Paul's teachings are the direct result of Jesus personal direction on his teachings. He was always quick to identify when something was his own recommendation or when it was something directly from Jesus. I do not see anything in Paul's writings that in any way lean towards paganism. His zeal for Judaism was proof that he would tolerate nothing that he believed would offend his God.

Paul wrote more NT scripture than any other writer. If you believe that "All scripture is inspired of God" then you cannot believe that God would allow his word to be tampered with. He had the power to preserve it down through centuries of time and many attempts to get rid of it. The Catholic Church alone was responsible for making the word of God unavailable to anyone but the priests and then in a dead language that they tried to hang onto. They burned people alive for merely possessing a copy of God's word.

If you have a problem with Paul, that is entirely between you and him.
His contributions are in the NT scriptures that God has preserved for almost 2,000 years....you need to take that up with him.

 

[Simplelogic]

Well, I don't want to create a rabbit trail here. If you want to debate Paul's apostleship I recommend the following threads:

Jesus exposes Paul as a false apostle | ReligiousForums.com

Is Paul arrogant? | ReligiousForums.com

Is Paul your spiritual father? | ReligiousForums.com

Paul on Women, Sex and Dress | ReligiousForums.com

Paul created Calvanism!!! | ReligiousForums.com

Are Muslims right about Paul? | ReligiousForums.com

Paul on "the end of the law" | ReligiousForums.com

Jesus vs Paul (salvation doctrine) | ReligiousForums.com

How Paul wrote the old testament. | ReligiousForums.com

 

[JayJayDee]

Haha.....we shall see my friend. This is one issue I don't even need to argue. Just read Romans 9 and get a vomit bag ready.

Oh, now I get it...you have a problem with replacement theology....yes?

 

[Kolibri]

Oh, now I get it...you have a problem with replacement theology....yes?

yeah..among other things. I will update you in a conversation message and we can move this topic to the thread I saw you sniffing around in earlier

 

[Simplelogic]

Oh, now I get it...you have a problem with replacement theology....yes?

Yes among many other things.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes among many other things.

What gets up your nose about replacement theology? It makes perfect sense given Jesus words in Matt 23:37-39....

Holman......“Jerusalem, Jerusalem! She who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will never see Me again until you say, ‘He who comes in the name of the Lord is the blessed One’!”

Jesus said this before his execution, basically saying that every prophet that God had sent to correct his wayward people had met with the same response. And now the last prophet was God's own son, and they would do the same to him, necessitating God's abandonment of his people as the covenant breakers that they were.
The desolating of the House of Israel was Jesus condemnation, not Paul's.

They would not see the son of God again until they 'bless the one who who comes in Jehovah's name'. They never have. So Peter revealed that God would turn his attention to the Gentiles to take out of them "a people for his name". (Acts 15:14)

Mark 12:1-10 is the parable that also tells the same story. It was written that this would occur.

If you have a problem with Paul, you must also have a problem with Jesus and Peter.

 

[Ingledsva]

That does not compute.
Where did the angels come up with evil? Where does it say they were evil at this point?
Also - there is NO evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.
And - again - Gen 2:17 tells us Adam and Chav'vah had no knowledge of good and evil. There can be no FALL - if they do not have knowledge of good and evil. It would be like saying a baby that kicked over a lantern causing a fire and death - can be called a sinner, and be held responsible for the death and destruction, and kicked out of the nursery, when they have no knowledge or understanding of what happened.

(1) The angels rebelled, thus becoming evil. It was their choice all along.

(2) Lucifer/Satan/Adversary is a real entity who has rebelled against God. I understand mainstream Judaism's take on satan being a loyal servant of God and it can be easily refuted.

(1) Again - where did evil among created angels come from? Where does Tanakh say they rebelled?

(2) There is NO evil Satan in Tanakh. Later Christians misunderstood/mistranslated the texts. YOU say it can easily be refuted? Show us the Tanakh texts that say such.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes they do, and they have for many years. The Hebrew text records this. Both angels and humans have the ability to choose. Both angels and humans have done evil.

Again - where does Tanakh say such?

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Was there any evil before Lucifer ?

There actually is no Lucifer.

They misinterpreted a text.

*

 

[Kolibri]

There actually is no Lucifer.

They misinterpreted a text.

true. Lucifer literally means "shining one" and it was a term used sarcastically towards the King of Babylon.

You will recite this proverb against the king of Babylon:
"How the one forcing others to work (or "the taskmaster.") has met his end!
How the oppression has ended!
----
How you have fallen from heaven,
O shining one, son of dawn!
How you have been cut down to the earth,
You who vanquished nations!"
- Isaiah 14:4,12

 

[FearGod]

Don't most Muslims believe that the Jinn serve God as well? This is also true in mainstream Judaism. Though if one goes ONLY by the Hebrew text, this concept can't be proved. In fact, the exact opposite is true.

Only Angels do serve God, they execute his orders and obey his commands and they got no free will.

 

[Ingledsva]

I think the holman Christian standard bible gets it the best:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But perceiving their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts?

He wasn't mindreading here.

Mat 9:3 And seeing; some of the Scribes said amongst themselves, he blasphemes!

Mat 9:4 And when Jesus became aware of the deliberations/conversation, He said, To what intent do you ponder hurtful/malicious/evil in your hearts?

*

 

[Ingledsva]

true. Lucifer literally means "shining one" and it was a term used sarcastically towards the King of Babylon.

You will recite this proverb against the king of Babylon:
"How the one forcing others to work (or "the taskmaster.") has met his end!
How the oppression has ended!
----
How you have fallen from heaven,
O shining one, son of dawn!
How you have been cut down to the earth,
You who vanquished nations!"
- Isaiah 14:4,12

That is correct. This is about a King that rose to great power, - only to experience the corresponding great fall, - not Satan.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

Adam and Chav'vah were not turned evil by the tree. This is the common misconception. Adam and Chav'vah knew what God had previously commanded them to do. Yet they had never chosen to do anything contrary to God's will at this point in time. This is why the knowledge of evil had not been revealed to them. Once they acted on this evil inclination they changed. It wasn't a magical evil fruit from the tree that caused them to become such. It was their evil decision, which they already had, to go against the will of God for the goal of trying to "become like God" as the serpent so cleverly told them. Ironically, Adam and Chav'vah were already like God in the first place!

They didn't have the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil before this event - thus no sin, - period.

You must KNOW something is evil, - and do it anyway, with intention, for it to be a sin/evil.

If a child has no KNOWLEDGE that someone considers tipping over the apple cart - is evil, - and they push it over for a new experience, to see what happens when you tip a cart, - they have not committed any sin. They can't, as they have no KNOWLEDGE of sin, let alone that someone decided that tipping over carts is a sin.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28: 1-16

This has nothing to do with Satan. This is flowery language about an anointed King - allowed to walk on the Holy Mountain.

Go read Isaiah. This is the same war over Jerusalem, and is talking about the scattered Hebrew people that were taken, just as in Isaiah, etc.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus (Tsor, Tyre), Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.

*
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament.

"In Tyre especially the national and political development went hand in hand with the spread and propagation of its religion. "The Tyrian state was the production and seat of its gods. He, the prince of Tyre, presided over this divine creation and divine seat; therefore he, the prince, was himself a god, a manifestation of the deity, having its work and home in the state of Tyre." All heathen rulers looked upon themselves in this light; so that the king of Babylon is addressed in a similar manner in Isa_14:13-14. This self-deification is shown to be a delusion in Eze_28:2; He who is only a man makes his heart like a God's heart, i.e., cherishes the same thought as the Gods. לֵב, the heart, as the seat of the thoughts and imaginations, is named instead of the disposition."

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

"Ezekiel 28:1-19

Ethbaal, or Ithobal, was the prince or king of Tyre; and being lifted up with excessive pride, he claimed Divine honours. Pride is peculiarly the sin of our fallen nature. Nor can any wisdom, except that which the Lord gives, lead to happiness in this world or in that which is to come. The haughty prince of Tyre thought he was able to protect his people by his own power, and considered himself as equal to the inhabitants of heaven.

*