Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

[Simplelogic]

What??? your resorting to heathen translations to prove your point!!!! Okay, but the fact is "evil" is used in more versions of the Bible (47% in fact) than any other term.

Its a matter of the way languages evolve. No one today would use the term evil in the way it is used in the Hebrew scriptures. Evil today means sinister…not calamity, which is obviously the way it was used in many places where God's judgement was being poured out.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

To many people God is a being who is omniscient and timeless. He is also seen as someone who micromanages free will and even ordains evil actions! Most believe that this (ordained evil) is justified because its all part of a intricate plan which will eventually lead men back to God. Sigh...

People have so many different ideas about God and the goalposts keep moving on questions like this. So who knows?

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe Adam and Chav'vah sinned against God. I don't believe God ordained them to sin or even willed it. I believe He wanted them to "be fruitful and multiply" and fill the earth with good humans.

Regarding the flood- God attempted to destroyed the human race which had mixed with fallen angels and had become truly "evil". Though this act greatly diminished the Nephilim it did not destroy them. Ham chose to sin against Noah and became a cursed race.

This skips right over the idea that if God didn't create evil, than Adam and Chav'vah would not have had that option available to use. Thus no fall.

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[Simplelogic]

So why do you think he was compelled to create it? Usually we create new things because they don;t exist and they won't exist when we need them, OR we create them just to please ourselves. So, obviously god did create evil because it didn't exist and wouldn't exist in time to suit his needs, OR it simply pleased him. The universe, super novas, planets, and humans were all on the drawing board and part of the grand design was to included, among other things

Because He didn't create it! Nor did He ever say He created it.

 

[Simplelogic]

This skips right over the idea that if God didn't create evil, than Adam and Chav'vah would not have had that option available to use. Thus no fall.

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I see it a little differently.

Just because God created man and woman with the full capacity to do whatever they want does not mean He is responsible for the choices they make. The only thing God can be accused of is creating autonomous beings able to do good (things He said to do) or evil (things he said not to do).

 

[Simplelogic]

People have so many different ideas about God and the goalposts keep moving on questions like this. So who knows?

Not trying to move any goalposts. Just trying to answer these questions according to the text and not according to traditional dogmas of Christianity/Judaism.

 

[Ingledsva]

I see it a little differently.

Just because God created man and woman with the full capacity to do whatever they want does not mean He is responsible for the choices they make. The only thing God can be accused of is creating autonomous beings able to do good (things He said to do) or evil (things he said not to do).

What "full capacity?"

From this story we learn Adam and Chav'vah don't have knowledge about evil.

Obviously in this story - YHVH has created good and evil, - but hasn't given them that KNOWLEDGE.

Gen 2:17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, surely you shall die.


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[Simplelogic]

What "full capacity?"

From this story we learn Adam and Chav'vah don't have knowledge about evil.

Obviously in this story - YHVH has created good and evil, - but hasn't given them that KNOWLEDGE.

Gen 2:17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, surely you shall die.


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You have missed something in your assessment. Evil already existed at this point in time. Lucifer and a number of angels had already chosen to partake in this evil. It was not something that God created, nor is it something that God wanted from His created angelic beings. Giving humans the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil is not creating it.

 

[Ingledsva]

What "full capacity?"

From this story we learn Adam and Chav'vah don't have knowledge about evil.

Obviously in this story - YHVH has created good and evil, - but hasn't given them that KNOWLEDGE.

Gen 2:17 but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, surely you shall die.

You have missed something in your assessment. Evil already existed at this point in time. Lucifer and a number of angels had already chosen to partake in this evil. It was not something that God created, nor is it something that God wanted from His created angelic beings. Giving humans the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil is not creating it.

That does not compute.

Where did the angels come up with evil? Where does it say they were evil at this point?

Also - there is NO evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.

And - again - Gen 2:17 tells us Adam and Chav'vah had no knowledge of good and evil. There can be no FALL - if they do not have knowledge of good and evil. It would be like saying a baby that kicked over a lantern causing a fire and death - can be called a sinner, and be held responsible for the death and destruction, and kicked out of the nursery, when they have no knowledge or understanding of what happened.


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[Kolibri]

4. God does not claim to predestine mans fate

Even with accepting Paul's writings I agree with this statement. I have heard God's ability to foreknow likened to a singer with a beautiful voice. That singer does not have to use sing all the time just because he has the ability. Hopefully sometime soon we can reopen this aspect of the issue you currently have with Paul's writings.

I do not know about God existing w/in or w/o of time itself. But in regards to all 66 books, if it can be proven that God predestines any individuals to everlasting salvation or everlasting damnation, my entire trust in my God would be completely undermined. When it comes to salvation/damnation, God does not go beyond foreknowing that there will be groups of people with differing destinies, but the individuals have free will to choose everlasting life or everlasting death by their personal choices.

 

[JayJayDee]

I am not a Christian, nor do I fall under normative Judaism. However I am willing to debate the following items concerning the Hebrew scriptures. My positions are as follows:

1. God is not outside of time

"Outside of time" is a strange concept to beings who only know time in a limited earthly understanding. Most of us aren't scientists.

When we think of Peter's statement...."do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." That kind of puts a new slant on time from God's perspective to me. Does that put him outside of time? No, but I believe it puts him outside of earth time. I can't begin to imagine why a timeless being would be interested in time except to interact with beings who are limited by it.

2. God can be omnipresent but is not omniscient

I would reverse those two statements. God is given a location by Jesus himself. "Our Father who art in Heaven" which means that God is not everywhere. If God was omnipresent, why would he need angels to serve him as messengers?
But I do believe that he is "all-knowing". It says in the scriptures that he can read hearts, not just thoughts.

Whether or not he chooses to know something about a person or an action is another matter. I don't believe he does choose to know everything. I heard it likened to a man who had a key that could unlock every lock on earth. Would he have to unlock every lock, just because he could? I don't think so.

3. God did not make or create evil

I believe that all opposites exist as a matter of fact. For every action there is an equal opposite....so evil exists as an equal opposite of good. It was not purposely created, but exists because it must. God initially was going to keep the knowledge of evil to himself. He did not program humans to deal with evil. We see that in our own response to it.

4. God does not claim to predestine mans fate

True. Giving humans free will means that nothing he does can be pre-destined or else we don't have choices at all. God can pre-determine the outcome of an event but not the free will of those involved in that event. He never wanted to be a dictator. That is why there was only one law in Eden. A simple command that did not impact on their lives in any way....yet they broke it. Understanding why allows us to see where they went wrong in their exercise of free will.

5. God does not know what we are going to do (specifically)

He could choose to know if he wanted to....but he wants our decisions to be ours. That way he can judge impartially and allow our actions to be all our own doing. By the way we use or abuse the life he has given us, we tell him whether or not we will make good citizens of his kingdom. He is choosing his citizens very carefully. Those who want to do things their way or serve God under their own terms, will not get an invitation. Free will is a gift but it is not a license to do as we please. If it is exercised without due regard for the free will of others, we have missed to point.

 

[Kolibri]

To JayJayDee: Yay! to someone that lives half-way around the world when this hummingbird needs to sleep. I saw this list earlier and you saw all I had energy for in the post prior

 

[FearGod]

Hey!! My first taker.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

These words certainly seem to paint a gut-wrenching picture of God actually admitting to being responsible for creating evil. No thought could be further from the truth or more blasphemous. What God is speaking of is obviously the opposite of "peace", in the same way He contrasted "light" and "darkness". This peace means tranquility of life, and the word translated "evil" more literally means "calamity". Some translations, including the NKJV, actually use the word "calamity" in this verse instead of "evil". This calamity is the picture of God's judgment on man for his sinful deeds. Many examples of this type of picture could be cited. The great flood was a major calamity and judgment on man. There was judgment in the form of calamity on Sodom and Gomorrah, Pharaoh in Egypt, Israel in the wilderness, and so on. Many times this judgment is called "evil". Here are a couple of examples where the same Hebrew word is used.

And the Lord repented of the evil ("harm" NKJV)which he thought to do unto his people. Exodus 32:14 KJV

"Thus says the Lord: 'Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord's house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. Perhaps (What? God didn't know for sure?!) everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the evil ("calamity" NKJV) which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings." Jeremiah 26:2-3

Note: By using the word "perhaps", it should be apparent that God wasn't even sure if the people would repent! So much for Calvinism's concept of an all-knowing God.

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Behold, I will bring on Judah and on all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil ("doom" NKJV) that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them but they have not heard, and I have called to them but they have not answered.'" Jeremiah 35:17

These are examples of the same "evil" God was speaking of in Isaiah 45:7. God most certainly did not bring evil into existence as though it would not exist had He not created it.

Would a satanic behavior exists in a world of Angels ?
What prevents Angels of being evils ?

 

[wizanda]

1. God is not outside of time...

The Bible is clearly a prophetic book, telling us what will happen in future events; to know what will happen clearly, God is outside of time.

Plus for all Biblical prophecy about the global deception to take affect, God instigated it and mankind ran with it. Though the law, the prophets and Yeshua make clear what not to follow; people go the way they wish.

What you need to comprehend, is we're in a reality of equal and opposite reactions; thus telling people to go the right way, doesn't often cause them to do so....Why Yeshua stated about people going the extra mile, as only then might you supersede the instructor.

Please don't give up on it though, as you've come along way to even recognize Paul and fight for it. It is going to get far worse, before it gets better and there is loads more to it yet to be revealed; yet overall it is for the greater good.

 

[Koldo]

I am even willing to state publicly that if it can be proven, from the Hebrew scriptures, that God is outside of time and predestining the will of man then I will formally and publicly renounce the God of Israel who's name is Yehovah.

This is so lame...
You are talking about scriptures that can, and have been, interpreted to mean a vast array of things. Since your particular interpretation is compatible with the text, it is obvious from the very start that you would dismiss other interpretations that could contradict your own, even if they had a scriptural basis.

 

[Simplelogic]

This is so lame...
You are talking about scriptures that can, and have been, interpreted to mean a vast array of things. Since your particular interpretation is compatible with the text, it is obvious from the very start that you would dismiss other interpretations that could contradict your own, even if they had a scriptural basis.

What have I dismissed?

 

[Simplelogic]

That does not compute.

Where did the angels come up with evil? Where does it say they were evil at this point?

Also - there is NO evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.

And - again - Gen 2:17 tells us Adam and Chav'vah had no knowledge of good and evil. There can be no FALL - if they do not have knowledge of good and evil. It would be like saying a baby that kicked over a lantern causing a fire and death - can be called a sinner, and be held responsible for the death and destruction, and kicked out of the nursery, when they have no knowledge or understanding of what happened.


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The angels rebelled, thus becoming evil. It was their choice all along.

Lucifer/Satan/Adversary is a real entity who has rebelled against God. I understand mainstream Judaism's take on satan being a loyal servant of God and it can be easily refuted.

 

[Simplelogic]

And - again - Gen 2:17 tells us Adam and Chav'vah had no knowledge of good and evil. There can be no FALL - if they do not have knowledge of good and evil. It would be like saying a baby that kicked over a lantern causing a fire and death - can be called a sinner, and be held responsible for the death and destruction, and kicked out of the nursery, when they have no knowledge or understanding of what happened.

Adam and Chav'vah were not turned evil by the tree. This is the common misconception. Adam and Chav'vah knew what God had previously commanded them to do. Yet they had never chosen to do anything contrary to God's will at this point in time. This is why the knowledge of evil had not been revealed to them. Once they acted on this evil inclination they changed. It wasn't a magical evil fruit from the tree that caused them to become such. It was their evil decision, which they already had, to go against the will of God for the goal of trying to "become like God" as the serpent so cleverly told them. Ironically, Adam and Chav'vah were already like God in the first place!

 

[Simplelogic]

Would a satanic behavior exists in a world of Angels ?
What prevents Angels of being evils ?

Apparently nothing.

 

[Simplelogic]

The Bible is clearly a prophetic book, telling us what will happen in future events; to know what will happen clearly, God is outside of time.

"Whenever I start talking about God not knowing the future and what man will do, the question of prophecy comes up. How can God prophesy that something will occur in the future? The fact that God tells of many things that will happen in the future appears to prove that He does know the future. When God says something is going to happen, it does not mean that He has foreseen it from the perspective of being outside of time, nor does it mean that everything that transpires on earth was foreordained in exhaustive detail from before creation. When God says that something is going to happen He is telling man what He will do in the future. It is His will, and what He will do. It is more like His plan or blueprint for the future. God generally chooses to first work with those who are willing to go along with His plan, and if no one can be found, He will then make an exception andcause someone to carry out His plan. This is a simple concept that an innocent child can grasp. The problem is that adults generally have motive for making it more difficult than it really is.

There is a passage in Isaiah that is commonly quoted as proof that God knows everything from start to finish. "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning." But, if one looks at the context in which this passage is found, a very different picture emerges. In its context, it is easy to see that prophecy is God's plan that He willbring about... one way or another.

"Remember this and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,; Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it." Isaiah 46:8-11

Notice that God does not speak using time-less terminology, but speaks as though He is going through time as well when He says things like, "not yet done", "shall stand", "I will do", "I will bring it to pass", and so on. It should be apparent that what God has "purposed" should be considered a plan that He will by whatever means necessary, bring it to pass. Notice also how He prefers to use a man who willfully executesHis counsel. Nowhere in this passage is there the idea that God has foreseen future events. He exerts Himself in time as the Most High... to bring to pass what He has purposed."

The Attributes of Deity part 2