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Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I would reverse those two statements. God is given a location by Jesus himself. "Our Father who art in Heaven" which means that God is not everywhere. If God was omnipresent, why would he need angels to serve him as messengers?
But I do believe that he is "all-knowing". It says in the scriptures that he can read hearts, not just thoughts.

Whether or not he chooses to know something about a person or an action is another matter. I don't believe he does choose to know everything. I heard it likened to a man who had a key that could unlock every lock on earth. Would he have to unlock every lock, just because he could? I don't think so. :confused:

I don't believe that God is "everywhere" all the time. I do believe that God can be multiple places at the same time through His created angels which represent Him. Maybe omnipresence is the wrong word for my beliefs.

I disagree on God being "all knowing". Just because it says God is reading or discerning our thoughts does not mean He is in our heads. Most examples in the Tanakh refer to how closely God is watching our actions and listening to our words. This is how I believe He understands our thoughts. He is very wise and has intimate knowledge of our actions and can see through our hypocrisy. If you need examples of this I will provide.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I believe that all opposites exist as a matter of fact. For every action there is an equal opposite....so evil exists as an equal opposite of good. It was not purposely created, but exists because it must. God initially was going to keep the knowledge of evil to himself. He did not program humans to deal with evil. We see that in our own response to it.

Don't agree with this logic. The concept that evil is needed in order for there to be good is pagan philosophy and has no place in the Hebrew text.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
But the fact is that Angels don't do awful things, why ?
But man can do awful things,why ?

It means that Angels were created as not to sin whereas man were created to sin.
Yes they do, and they have for many years. The Hebrew text records this. Both angels and humans have the ability to choose. Both angels and humans have done evil.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
He could choose to know if he wanted to....but he wants our decisions to be ours. That way he can judge impartially and allow our actions to be all our own doing. By the way we use or abuse the life he has given us, we tell him whether or not we will make good citizens of his kingdom. He is choosing his citizens very carefully. Those who want to do things their way or serve God under their own terms, will not get an invitation. Free will is a gift but it is not a license to do as we please. If it is exercised without due regard for the free will of others, we have missed to point. :(

I agree that God could choose to know if He wanted to. My argument is that He simply doesn't for whatever reason.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Even with accepting Paul's writings I agree with this statement. I have heard God's ability to foreknow likened to a singer with a beautiful voice. That singer does not have to use sing all the time just because he has the ability. Hopefully sometime soon we can reopen this aspect of the issue you currently have with Paul's writings.

I do not know about God existing w/in or w/o of time itself. But in regards to all 66 books, if it can be proven that God predestines any individuals to everlasting salvation or everlasting damnation, my entire trust in my God would be completely undermined. When it comes to salvation/damnation, God does not go beyond foreknowing that there will be groups of people with differing destinies, but the individuals have free will to choose everlasting life or everlasting death by their personal choices.

I don't buy the foreknowledge argument. There are many cases where God repents and gets surprised by man's evil. I do believe He has a will and He will bring His will to pass. If God knows what you are going to do before you do it then He is not giving you a choice.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Examples pls.

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28: 1-16
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
"Scriptures that indicate God has limited His knowledge.

There are many passages in the Bible that indicate God does not necessarily know what man will do. The following are just a few of them. This picture of a creator who chooses tonot know what his creature will do shows up right at the beginning of the Bible in the creation account itself .

"Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them." Genesis 2:19

If God is all-knowing of what man will do, why was He so inquisitive of what Adam would do?

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lordregretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth,... for I regret that I have made them." Genesis 6:5-7

How can a wise God do something that He knows He will regret in the future? This passage clearly implies that, had God known when He created man that he would become as evil as he did, He would not have created him! Thus, He did not know. God knew it was a possibility that man could turn toward ultimate evil. That is part of the risk He took in relinquishing control and giving man a free will. But that is not the same as knowing man would become as evil as he did. God had higher hopes for His creation.

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Indeed, the people are one and they all have one language..." Genesis 11:5,6

Gathering information again! And obviously, it was information He didn't completely possess before.

And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20,21

It sounds like He didn't know for sure and was going on a fact-finding mission again!

But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:11,12

Again, "now I know", as though He wasn't completely sure before.

Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments." 1Samuel 15:11

How can an intelligent God do something He knew He would wish He hadn't done?

"And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35 (see also Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:5)

God said Himself that it never came into His mind!!

These are just a few of the highlights. There seems to be no end to the scriptural references that suggest man did something that was unexpected by God. Just the fact that it says God became angry with men on numerous occasions, suggests that something different was expected from them. If this were not the case, then God's display of anger was merely theatrics on His part... a lie. How can God be justifiably angry with someone for doing what He expected them not to do, while at the same time He expected them to do it because He knew they would? The picture of an all-knowing God just doesn't stand to any plausible line of logic. God has taken a great risk in creating a being with a free will. The question is why? C. S. Lewis rightly put the answer this way;

"Why then did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having, A world of automata--of creatures that worked like machines--would hardly be worth creating."
(C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity p.49.)

The longing of God's heart for those who would love Him, and would demonstrate that love by obeying Him, is the very purpose God made man in the first place. Listen to His heart yearning in this passage.

"Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! Deut. 5:29

The Attributes of Deity
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28: 1-16

Does Lucifer still an Angel or he's an evil by now ?
The answer is he's the devil by now, do you agree.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Can the evil choose to be an angel again? if not , why he can't ?
It is not clear. Perhaps they can until they reach a point of complete evil. Not sure how God handles this but I do know that humans always have the opportunity to repent. However there will be a time in the future when humans will pledge complete allegiance to lucifer and I believe this is the point of no return. So perhaps the same type of concept exists for angels as well.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
It is not clear. Perhaps they can until they reach a point of complete evil. Not sure how God handles this but I do know that humans always have the opportunity to repent. However there will be a time in the future when humans will pledge complete allegiance to lucifer and I believe this is the point of no return. So perhaps the same type of concept exists for angels as well.

Do you think that God can make the evil to an Angel once again in one day night if he wanted to?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Can God convert the evil to an Angel once again in one day night ?
I don't think God converts anything by Himself….us included. I think He desires us to turn back to Him but He can't make man do it….nor angels. Does this answer your question?
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Can the evil choose to be an angel again? if not , why he can't ?
no. as already perfect beings they had to make a deliberate choice to become imperfect. There is no provision provided to ransom one who deliberately goes against their own perfect nature to become imperfect.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
no. as already perfect beings they had to make a deliberate choice to become imperfect. There is no provision provided to ransom one who deliberately goes against their own perfect nature to become imperfect.
You don't know this. God ransomed many humans in the Hebrew scriptures with NO ANIMAL SACRIFICES INVOLVED. We do not know that He can't do the same for angels.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
God can turn rocks in to followers; it isn't hard for God to convert angels... It is all about free will. ;)

Thus this is why we've got to question the reality, not God... We might be in a place close to hell; therefore why shouldn't everything be upside down?
Find this tendency of humans, not to want associate themselves as being the devil (slanderer) or satan (accuser) its self.

So what if we created evil, and for God to remove it, means removing some of us? :eek:
 
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