To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[Argentbear]

As for growing out of GD, studies are easy to find. I know you won't like the folks who put this list of studies together, but that's beside the point. You asked about studies, this link provides a list of studies:

Do children grow out of gender dysphoria? - Transgender Trend

wow a link from a group that denies that transgender even exists. I can't wait to unpack this

"An analysis of 10 published studies can be seen here." The first of their published studies was from 1972. Lebovitz, P. S. (1972). Feminine behavior in boys: It identifies transgendered individuals as men who occasionally cross dress. Well I'm convinced

and a personal favorite: "In this Dutch study they identified 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam when they were under the age of 12. They then looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age 15."
so what were they refereed to the Gender Identity Clinic in Amsterdam for. Well it turns out they were there for diagnosis. it concludes that (37%) of these children had persisted (in identifying as transgender) Can any one take a guess as to just how many of the 127 children referred there were actually diagnosed as transgender? Oh come on. Guess (hint it was 46 children. which is by some strange coincidence the number of children diagnosed as trans. What ARE the odds?

 

[icehorse]

wow a link from a group that denies that transgender even exists. I can't wait to unpack this

"An analysis of 10 published studies can be seen here." The first of their published studies was from 1972. Lebovitz, P. S. (1972). Feminine behavior in boys: It identifies transgendered individuals as men who occasionally cross dress. Well I'm convinced

and a personal favorite: "In this Dutch study they identified 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam when they were under the age of 12. They then looked to see if these children were still gender dysphoric by the time they reached adolescence at age 15."
so what were they refereed to the Gender Identity Clinic in Amsterdam for. Well it turns out they were there for diagnosis. it concludes that (37%) of these children had persisted (in identifying as transgender) Can any one take a guess as to just how many of the 127 children referred there were actually diagnosed as transgender? Oh come on. Guess (hint it was 46 children. which is by some strange coincidence the number of children diagnosed as trans. What ARE the odds?

We're not off to a good start when your first claim is a bald faced lie, but let's proceed anyway and see if things get better...

Next, you still haven't defined what "trans" means now, in 2024. And you haven't yet defended your definition of gender. I asked if the one you gave is the one you're willing to defend, still waiting for your response.

So you commented on 2 of the 10 studies. Your first comment is useful only once you've defined trans. Your comment on the other study is missing key facts.

And the other 8 studies?

 

[Valjean]

I think body is the one that determines the true orientation. A man can't have sex as a woman. If a man thinks he is a woman, he can only fool himself to think the reality is something else than what it is.

But an anatomical male thinks with his brain, and if the brain is female, wouldn't thinking s/he's a man be the pretension?

"You" are your brain, and your body its life support system. If the brain's configuration doesn't match the usual model life support system, who's the fool pretending it does?

 

[Argentbear]

We're not off to a good start when your first claim is a bald faced lie, but let's proceed anyway and see if things get better...

"No child is born in the wrong body"

"We don’t have any evidence that children really are trans"

"this is a very new phenomenon which is based on no credible scientific research"

"great rewards for the child in terms of becoming the centre of attention and achieving special status among parents, teachers and peers."

"‘Trans kids’ gain a lot of power among the adults around them, especially if the school also takes part in their ‘social transition’ and changes whole school policies for them. This is an irresistible situation for many children."

 

[1213]

But an anatomical male thinks with his brain, and if the brain is female, wouldn't thinking s/he's a man be the pretension?

I don't believe any man has a female brain. It would be nice to know what that even would mean.

 

[1213]

If only 2 genders, then which?

It depends on what the person has.

 

[Valjean]

I don't believe any man has a female brain. It would be nice to know what that even would mean.

Yet anatomy and various brain scans seem to indicate they do. There is a great deal of neural variation not reflected in sexual anatomy.

 

[Argentbear]

We're not off to a good start when your first claim is a bald faced lie, but let's proceed anyway and see if things get better...

Next, you still haven't defined what "trans" means now, in 2024. And you haven't yet defended your definition of gender. I asked if the one you gave is the one you're willing to defend, still waiting for your response.

So you commented on 2 of the 10 studies. Your first comment is useful only once you've defined trans. Your comment on the other study is missing key facts.

And the other 8 studies?

There were 5 studies presented as evidence. count them.

1: Korte 2008 This talks about Gender Identity Disorder not transgender. the article is an overview of Currently debated topic involving gender identity disorder GID is a catch all category for all issues of gender nonconformity. THE line "Only 2.5% to 20% of all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence are the initial manifestation of irreversible transsexualism." appears only in the introduction and is not supported in any way or even given an explanation of just what irreversible transsexualism actually is.

2 "An analysis of 10 published studies can be seen here." The first of their published studies was from 1972. Lebovitz, P. S. (1972). Feminine behavior in boys: It identifies transgendered individuals as men who occasionally cross dress. Well I'm convinced

3. The most recent study in this group, published in 2013, confirms that gender dysphoria does not persist in most children past puberty. It doesn't show this at all. what the study does say is that children who identify being the opposite gender persist in that identify through adolescence.

4 In this Dutch study they identified 127 children who were referred to the Gender Identity clinic in Amsterdam. the children were referred to the clinic for diagnosis not because they were trans

5. The latest follow-up study of boys experiencing gender dysphoria (Singh, Bradley, Zucker, 2021) shows the same result as the earlier studies
this may have been published in 2021 but relies of data from 1989 when there was an entirely different set of criteria to diagnose gender dysphoria.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Do children grow out of gender dysphoria? - Transgender Trend

Is there a reason why, whenever you are asked for any scientific evidence of your claims, you never cite anything other than anti-trans websites?

You could try, I dunno, a science website?

 

[stvdv]

Even by adults who freely make the choice,
& have been thru a vetting process?

This thread, was about the biggest child hospital in the world, located in North America

Adults we need not even talk about. Free choice

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This thread, was about the biggest child hospital in the world, located in North America

Actually, it was about Vivek Ramaswamy, a right-wing commentator with no medical expertise stating falsehoods and misunderstanding what gender dysphoria is.

 

[Kenny]

It argues corrupt profit motives of abortion providers.
Can you do better....something more worth reading?

Apparently you haven’t seen the undercover videos of the abortion providers.

Are you trying to wave a wand to pretend that it isn’t there?

 

[Revoltingest]

It depends on what the person has.

What if both?

 

[Revoltingest]

This thread, was about the biggest child hospital in the world, located in North America

Adults we need not even talk about. Free choice

I still favor that even adults be vetted for transition.
That's just good health care.

 

[Revoltingest]

Apparently you haven’t seen the undercover videos of the abortion providers.

Let me guess...these "undercover videos" are
from Christian anti-abortion advocates?
And they carefully cull & edit to serve an agenda.
Just like the ones that "prove" vaccines kill.

Are you trying to wave a wand to pretend that it isn’t there?

I'm addressing the Christian & Maga opposition to
the profit motive in capitalism only when people
earn wages performing abortions. You could argue
the same thing about a "dental industrial complex",
it, those evil tooth doctors kill cavities for profit!

It's dishonest deflecting to try to turn an argument
about abortion rights vs fetus rights into a critique
against one small segment of capitalism.
BTW, many hospitals are non-profit organizations,
or even arms of state government.

 

[stvdv]

Actually, it was about Vivek Ramaswamy, a right-wing commentator with no medical expertise stating falsehoods and misunderstanding what gender dysphoria is.

Correct. Thank you for pointing out my fault

I had made 2 threads on this, and mixed it up

 

[stvdv]

I still favor that even adults be vetted for transition.
That's just good health care.

I agree, even cancer treatment adults get vetted

Maybe best, to vet them when young, but not treat them. That way, they can think about it for 5 or more years, until they reach the proper age, to start the full procedure

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Maybe best, to vet them when young, but not treat them. That way, they can think about it for 5 or more years, until they reach the proper age, to start the full procedure

Right. So, what forms of treatment would you suggest are appropriate for children considering transition?

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree, even cancer treatment adults get vetted

Maybe best, to vet them when young, but not treat them. That way, they can think about it for 5 or more years, until they reach the proper age, to start the full procedure

To not treat young people with gender dysphoria
also has its risks, eg, suicide. The balance between
allowing & denying sex transition should be that
which maximizes well being. Denial fails to achieve it.

 

[stvdv]

It's dishonest deflecting to try to turn an argument
about abortion rights vs fetus rights into a critique
against one small segment of capitalism

Do you mean, that IF the intention of the Gender Dysphoria sudden created hype around Covid appears to have a hidden agenda, we should not take that into consideration to determine whether it should be allowed or not?

Hidden Agenda could very well be doing Hitler like experiments on human lab rats to tryout new meds for free? Or that they have far too little longterm Data on the meds to even start testing this on kids

Anyway testing these meds on very young kids is totally Adharmic (not right thing to do), hence there obviously must be some kind of hidden agenda, because ethics of meds, operations, surgeons must be of the highest standards