To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[SkepticThinker]

Hard to tell Vivek's entire position based on that short clip. It is possible the full context of that conversation could change the perception or not.

But I do believe those who are gay are born that way. I also believe there are two genders, they are not 'fluid', and those who transgender or want to have social/psychiatric issues. Probably few if any choose to have those issues just as those afflicted with certain addictions, anorexia/bulimia, and another abnormal and harmful conditions do not choose to have them. And there are cures and/or treatments for such conditions for those who will accept them.

I think a simple observation of human beings shows that gender can be quite fluid.

In the human male population you will find everything from what you might call "effeminate" men all the way down to "macho" men on the other end. And everything in between.

Same goes for women. We come in all shapes and sizes and varying levels of "feminine" and "masculine" and everything in between.

That alone should tell us something.

It is a fact that the vast majority of children/youth who think they want to transgender have changed their minds about that by the time they are adults. And that is why in my opinion it is criminal to do so-called 'gender affirming care' on kids.

What do you think gender affirming care is?

Pretty much everyone on this site is relying on authorities. I think the US's healthcare system is corrupt, do you disagree? Further, I think the European countries who have backed away from GAC provide better healthcare then the US does.

You won't be the one working on treatments. You have no qualifications or expertise to do so.
That will be health, medical and psychological personnel. As in, the people who know what they're actually talking about and spend their life studying this stuff and the people involved.


The US healthcare system is a disaster for various reasons, mostly having to do with profiteering. There is a whole other world out there, and the vast majority of the rest of the world doesn't have such a ***-poor healthcare system.

Finally, it defies common sense to imagine we can screw around with extremely complex human bodies using crude drugs and NOT have negative side effects.

You don't say. I wonder if doctors know about this?!?

So again, those who claim "no side effects" are making an extraordinary claim, and I await their extraordinarily good evidence. All the evidence the Cass report found was of low quality, i.e. not good enough to base medical interventions on.

Who claimed there are zero side effects to anything?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Please give me a source. Thanks.

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/puberty-blockers-for-precocious-puberty.html#:~:text=Providers%20can%20treat%20precocious%20puberty,development%20until%20they're%20ready.

Precocious puberty - Diagnosis and treatment - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Kathryn]

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/blog/puberty-blockers-for-precocious-puberty.html#:~:text=Providers%20can%20treat%20precocious%20puberty,development%20until%20they're%20ready.

Precocious puberty - Diagnosis and treatment - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org

This seems to be only for treatment for precocious puberty. I would prefer to see a source that talks about treatment for both conditions.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not really… science is science.

Yes, really.
Biology can be very messy. Perhaps you should take a course or two on the subject. Intersex people exist, ya know.

https://www.americanscientist.org/article/biology-is-not-binary#:~:text=Sex%20is%20not%20binary.,fall%20into%20two%20discrete%20types.

Here's Why Human Sex Is Not Binary

Ova don’t make a woman, and sperm don’t make a man

www.scientificamerican.com

Human Biology Is Not Binary

It is often said that, biologically, each of us is either male or female. But biologists know this view is incorrect.

www.psychologytoday.com

Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic

Biologists now think there is a larger spectrum than just binary female and male

www.scientificamerican.com

"Science is science" doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Grass is grass. Shoes are shoes.

No… it isn’t an anomaly any more than being brown is an anomaly. Going by common understanding of what anomaly is.

Sure it is.

anomaly​

1: something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified : something anomalous
They regarded the test results as an anomaly.


2: deviation from the common rule : irregularity


3: the angular distance of a planet from its perihelion as seen from the sun

Definition of ANOMALY

something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified : something anomalous; deviation from the common rule : irregularity; the angular distance of a planet from its perihelion as seen from the sun… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Left-handed people used to be treated as freaks and evil people, and were forced to use their other hand.

No. It isn’t an anomaly, it is a choice.

Being gay is not a choice any more than being "straight" is a choice.

You are really far behind on your science and psychology.

No… it isn’t necessarily an anomaly. It can be if you are 15 feet tall due to or 3 feet tall due to anomalies in genetic makeup which aren’t normal.

Yep, it is.

There is a spectrum of normal but I wouldn’t call them anomalies.

This sentence doesn't make sense.

Logic and science. If you have a tumor, it is an anomaly of what the body is supposed to do. You take out the anomaly to conform the body to what is normal. You don’t put tumors in people. It is a one way street.

Logic and science says that "But it is a one way street. You try to bring anomalies back to normalcy not normalcy to anomalies."

No, it does not. We no longer force left-handed people to be right-handed because we realized there is nothing to "correct" because it's not sinister to be left-handed and it actually hurts the person to force them to use the hand they are not comfortable with.

Even with tumours, there is variation and it isn't just a "one way street." Some are malignant, and some are benign. Some are removed, and some aren't, depending on the individual and the situation. Sometimes a malignant tumour can't be removed, if it's buried deep inside the brain, for instance.

Thanks for helping demonstrating that it's not just a "one way street" and that's it. It's actually much more nuanced and messy than that. Like biology.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This seems to be only for treatment for precocious puberty. I would prefer to see a source that talks about treatment for both conditions.

What other condition are you asking about?

The post you were responding to said:
"Puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years and tens of thousands of children have been on them usually for medical conditions like precocious puberty. Puberty blockers pause puberty and when you stop taking the medication puberty picks up where it lest off."

 

[Kathryn]

What other condition are you asking about?

Gender dysphoria.

 

[We Never Know]

So what?

Its true

What on earth does left-handedness have to do with anything medical?

Exactly!

 

[icehorse]

Who claimed there are zero side effects to anything?

Your entire post leads me to think you need to get yourself better informed... which is not my job, although I can be hired

 

[icehorse]

What other condition are you asking about?

The post you were responding to said:
"Puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years and tens of thousands of children have been on them usually for medical conditions like precocious puberty. Puberty blockers pause puberty and when you stop taking the medication puberty picks up where it lest off."

And of course the quote in italics is dangerously misleading

 

[We Never Know]

What other condition are you asking about?

The post you were responding to said:
"Puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years and tens of thousands of children have been on them usually for medical conditions like precocious puberty. Puberty blockers pause puberty and when you stop taking the medication puberty picks up where it lest off."

Do you have studies for long term effects?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you have studies for long term effects?

It's in the link I provided.

 

[Kenny]

Yes, really.
Biology can be very messy. Perhaps you should take a course or two on the subject. Intersex people exist, ya know.

Thank you for your encouragement. I have taken biology classes and I still read too.

https://www.americanscientist.org/article/biology-is-not-binary#:~:text=Sex%20is%20not%20binary.,fall%20into%20two%20discrete%20types.

Here's Why Human Sex Is Not Binary

Ova don’t make a woman, and sperm don’t make a man

www.scientificamerican.com

Human Biology Is Not Binary

It is often said that, biologically, each of us is either male or female. But biologists know this view is incorrect.

www.psychologytoday.com

Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic

Biologists now think there is a larger spectrum than just binary female and male

www.scientificamerican.com

"Science is science" doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Grass is grass. Shoes are shoes.

This isn’t science. This is modern day denial of XX and XY unless you show me how a biological man can have a baby.

Sure it is.

anomaly​

1: something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified : something anomalous
They regarded the test results as an anomaly.


2: deviation from the common rule : irregularity


3: the angular distance of a planet from its perihelion as seen from the sun

Definition of ANOMALY

something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified : something anomalous; deviation from the common rule : irregularity; the angular distance of a planet from its perihelion as seen from the sun… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I love this definition as it supports what I am saying,

Left-handed people used to be treated as freaks and evil people, and were forced to use their other hand.

Correct! But then we found out that it wasn’t an anomaly - a peculiar, not easily classified or a deviation from a common rule. We found out that it was normal to be either left handed, right handed or ambidextrous. Science corrected the error of treating them as freaks or anomalies. We took what was messy and unscientific and made it easy.

Thanks for a great example.

Being gay is not a choice any more than being "straight" is a choice.

But it is a choice.

If I am “straight” and love “women”, do I yield to the desire and violate my vows with my wife and choose not to do it? Absolutely. It is my choice.

You are really far behind on your science and psychology.

Creative. But surely an opinion

Yep, it is.

This sentence doesn't make sense.

Logic and science says that "But it is a one way street. You try to bring anomalies back to normalcy not normalcy to anomalies."

No, it does not. We no longer force left-handed people to be right-handed because we realized there is nothing to "correct" because it's not sinister to be left-handed and it actually hurts the person to force them to use the hand they are not comfortable with.

Even with tumours, there is variation and it isn't just a "one way street." Some are malignant, and some are benign. Some are removed, and some aren't, depending on the individual and the situation. Sometimes a malignant tumour can't be removed, if it's buried deep inside the brain, for instance.

Thanks for helping demonstrating that it's not just a "one way street" and that's it. It's actually much more nuanced and messy than that. Like biology.

If this is your “logically interpretation” of what I said, may I suggest you take some science classes? Logic classes too.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Its true

Relevance?

Exactly!

You said it was medical.

 

[We Never Know]

It's in the link I provided.

Just so we are clear, I am asking for 'long term' studies on side/negative effects.

Btw, you have thrown out many links. Guide me to the one you are referring to that has long term side effect study results.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thank you for your encouragement. I have taken biology classes and I still read too.

You should take some advanced ones.
You appear to be wholly unaware of the existence of intersex people, for example.

This isn’t science. This is modern day denial of XX and XY unless you show me how a biological man can have a baby.

Yep, it is science. You should have read the article, apparently.

Your ignorance of the science involved doesn't make it unscientific.
Your question is bizarre and irrelevant.

I love this definition as it supports what I am saying,

Demonstrate how then, instead of just claiming it.

Correct! But then we found out that it wasn’t an anomaly - a peculiar, not easily classified or a deviation from a common rule. We found out that it was normal to be either left handed, right handed or ambidextrous. Science corrected the error of treating them as freaks or anomalies. We took what was messy and unscientific and made it easy.
Thanks for a great example.

Left-handedness is still an anomaly, as per the definition provided. It sounds like you didn't read it.
People are usually right-handed. That's the "common rule." Some people are left-handed, they are the anomalies.

But it is a choice.

If I am “straight” and love “women”, do I yield to the desire and violate my vows with my wife and choose not to do it? Absolutely. It is my choice.

We're not talking about "yielding desires" or cheating on your wife.

We're talking about which sex a person is attracted to.
That's not a choice.

You didn't choose to be attracted to women. You just are attracted to women.
Same goes for gay people.

Creative. But surely an opinion

An opinion based on observation and interaction with you and your posts.

You don't even know that intersex people exist.

If this is your “logically interpretation” of what I said, may I suggest you take some science classes? Logic classes too.

I've taken advanced biology, psychopharmacology, neuropharmacology, and neuropsychopharmacology courses. I've taken critical thinking courses and have a degree in psychology.

How about you?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Just so we are clear, I am asking for 'long term' studies on side/negative effects.

Btw, you have thrown out many links. Guide me to the one you are referring to that has long term side effect study results.

I gave 2 links. You can find it.

 

[We Never Know]

I gave 2 links. You can find it.

Ok. You dont have any. Thanks.

 

[We Never Know]

Relevance?

You said it was medical.

Medical conditions were being compared to being left handed.
Using the medical definition of normal, its normal.

 

[We Never Know]

I gave 2 links. You can find it.

Btw see post #354 about that.

 

[Argentbear]

Doesn't seem like much of a problem. Are you struggling to compare "low" with "weak" or "poor"?

standard nomenclature verses undefined nd made up

I'm guessing that you're other people's reviews of Cass as opposed to reading or skimming the report yourself? I ask because in my reading / skimming of the report, they spend a lot of time discussing all the things above that your source says they don't discuss.

really? Then maybe you can point out what studies they looked at dealing with not providing care

Again, that's simply wrong. For example the report discusses the fact that there just isn't much data of any kind concerning long term outcomes.

Do you think we have good data on long term outocmes? That would be interesting given how recent the spike in GD is...

Long-term Outcomes After Gender-Affirming Surgery: 40-Year Follow-up Study Rachel H Park

Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care Diana M. Tordoff

Long-term effect of gender-affirming hormone treatment on depression and anxiety symptoms in transgender people: Zoë Aldridge

Mental Health Outcomes and Receipt of Gender-affirming Care David J. Inwards-Breland,

Gender-Affirming Surgery Improves Mental Health Outcomes and Decreases Antidepressant Use in Patients with Gender Dysphoria. Kilmer LH,

Risk of Suicide and Self-Harm Following Gender-Affirmation Surgery. Straub JJ,

In general doctors balance risk and benefits, correct?

Which you don't want them to do at all

The big problem the GAC cohort has is that they have no good data on the benefits,

SUre they do, just because Cass ignored them doesn't mean they don't exist

and we know the risks are high.

For withholding care

So we hear from the likes of WPATH that GAC "saves lives", but there is no good evidence to support that claim.

Sure tehre is you just done' want to look at any because it goes against your agenda

Further, we have no good evidence about long term benefits of GAC.

False, see above

And as the wave of detransers grows we are likely to find that the long term benefits are dubious for many kids.

Health Care Experiences of Patients Discontinuing or Reversing Prior Gender-Affirming Treatments Kinnon R. MacKinnon
Found that almost all of the individuals who stopped transitioning did so not because of any dissatisfaction with the process r its results but because of familial and social pressure to stop
Factors Leading to “Detransition” Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis JL TUrban
found the same but also found that those who stop transitioning start back up again

Let me ask you this, do you agree that GD is a mental health disorder?

gender dysphoria is a mantel health condition that affects abotu 143% of transgender people at some point in their lives

Being transgender is not a mental health disorder