To believe, or not to believe....?

[Ana.J]

If god equalls love, then god simply equals a human feeling.

Does not make sense to me. Who says that love we feel is the same love He would feel?

 

[Ana.J]

So, what you are proposing here is really what is known as Pascal's wager. It is a flawed argument. Just to name several of the problems.....

1. A person cannot simply will himself to believe. He has to actually think the thing is true.
2. It could be questioned whether an all-knowing god would be fooled by a person feigning belief.
3. It would take a lifetime to figure out which one of the thousands of gods one be should believe in.

1) Yes, that is true.
2) Of course he would now that you are faking faith. But what is the point? Why would one fake faith in God?
3) Why not seek God inside you? Do you think that you can connect to him only through religion?

 

[Ana.J]

We are told to delight in what God has created -but he will also delight in that we create forever.

Christ is described as "the firstborn of many brethren" -and the one for whom and by whom all things were made... as instructed by the Father (supreme).

We are all called "gods" by God and Christ in scripture -with the potential to be born the children of God in spirit bodies -and told that the whole creation awaits us.

Rom 8:18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Phil 3:21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

John 10:34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Rom 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

I'm sorry, but I do not completely understand your point here.

 

[Rajina]

Hello Guys,

Just a few thoughts on the faith in God.....

So do you agree that a person who believes in God and the one who doesn't live a different lives? I am not talking about fanatical dogmatic religious followers. Just a person who believes in supreme being/ the Creator and afterlife? Because most religions do imply the existence of afterlife.

So if we live our life believing in God and in the end we will find our that there is no afterlife, we will not care because we will cease to exist. No disappointment

But what if we live our life not believing in God (After us the deluge) and in the end we will find out that there is afterlife and you shall reap what you sow? Won't that be devastating?

So is it better to have faith then?

We may not be on the safe side just by believing in the existence of God and in afterlife. Even Satan believes it. To be on the safe side we need to obey God and live our life as per His guidance.

May God guide you

 

[Ana.J]

Interesting thread!

Found this -

"All belief that does not make us more happy, more free, more loving, more active, more calm, is, I fear, a mistaken and superstitious belief."

~ John K. Lavater

That is something I was trying to convey in my initial message.

 

[Ana.J]

We may not be on the safe side just by believing in the existence of God and in afterlife. Even Satan believes it. To be on the safe side we need to obey God and live our life as per His guidance.

May God guide you

Well, some Gods require blood sacrifices so you should be careful with that.....

 

[Rajina]

Well, some Gods require blood sacrifices so you should be careful with that.....

Yes.. We should be careful about fake gods.. And we need to make sure that we are on the safe side..

 

[Ana.J]

Yes.. We should be careful about fake gods.. And we need to make sure that we are on the safe side..

What if all gods are fake?

 

[Rajina]

What if all gods are fake?

Since its a matter of being on the safe side, we need to put our efforts, learn more, and investigate about what actually is the Truth.
May God guide you and me to the Truth.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

2) Of course he would now that you are faking faith. But what is the point? Why would one fake faith in God?

The same reason kids with crumbs all over the face say they didn't eat the cookies or cake or whatever: to not get into trouble.

 

[McBell]

Death means the destruction of the material body that we have but Jesus resurrected and went back home(the kingdom of God) in that very same body-within this angle of vision it can be considered as if he haven't died...after the crucification it was just an apparent death for him in order to wind up his pastime on earth & go back to the spiritual world since he had already completed his mission(guiding humanity toward God realisation)...so saying that Jesus died & later resurrected is correct as well as saying that Jesus didn't die is also true..it all depend hw ur seeing/understanding the bigger picture because no mundane human can kill Jesus.....jst an eg but on a material platform - a person who does an NDE(nearly death experience) is MEDICALLY dead for some seconds/minutes but then comes back to life afterward...saying that this person died and come back to life is as correct as saying that this person didn't die since he's still alive...hmm I think this is the main point of agreement

I rate it a 2.
The mental gymnastics are not nearly executed well enough.

 

[McBell]

What if all gods are fake?

Then your proposed Pascals Wager is simply a mental exercise for piece of mind.

 

[Etritonakin]

I'm sorry, but I do not completely understand your point here.

I was referring to what you wrote......

"I personally think that Jesus is not God. He was just a messiah who tried to teach people more humane attitude to each other. He had a message of love.

God to me is the Supreme Being, the Creator who put the beginning to life and our souls. I think that you can communicate with him personally through meditation. Or you can just admire his creation"

...and was giving the biblical perspective (which is not actually widely understood, because few actually read what is written -or with an open mind) that God is the Supreme being -as acknowledged even by Christ. When called good, Christ asked why he was called good -and said there is none good but God.

Also, however, that though Christ is not himself the supreme being -not the Father -he is "one" with God, the Father, and is also "God" -though not the Father.
It may seem confusing, but everything that exists is essentially God -and in creating, God essentially reconfigures that which he is.
Christ was not simply a man -as he existed with the Father before all else as "Logos" -the Word. The bible states that is was not the Father, but the Word who did the creating -but according to the will of the Father -whose intent it was to give rulership of the creation to his "Son".

Moreover... That his Son was -as stated -the "firstborn of many" who will be similar to him -but be governed by him. They will be the "children of God" -and be made like God.

My main point was that though we are told to delight in that which God has created, that is not the end of the story. God is essentially reproducing himself -making more like himself -but will always rightfully be in authority.
When we have been made like him, we will be given access to the entire creation -the whole universe -which is said in the bible to await the children of God.
Many think of eternal life -but do not consider what they might do forever.
Everyone will infinitely make more awesomeness to delight in.

You may see things differently, but that is an accurate paraphrasing of what is actually written in the bible -for your consideration.

 

[Shad]

Who says that they will not go to hell? My entire message was that it is better to be a believer because:

a) you are a better person when you grow spiritually (on your way to God)

Empty assertion.

b) you will not be disappointed/regret anything you did in the end if it turns out that we DO have to reap what we sow.....

If one acts are in favor of them being a good person belief is not required at all. However your point shows that belief is the trump card to all acts. However this is not something supported by your OP thus is a theistic concept of reward/punishment. Your facade is obvious.

Why would you make such an assumption? I never even mentioned hell in my post....

You have clearly stated that belief matters in comparison to acts and is a trump card against acts. Read what you type.

Why???? I never said that.

As per you belief overrides acts is obvious. Read what you post.

To be honest, I think that we will all reap what we sow no matter if you believe or not....but if you believe....you will be more mindful.

And the finally a statement of projection not included in your OP but is in most of your posts.

Are people not capable of figuring out a moral code without threats and fear based intimation? All you have shown is these people lack a moral compass while being susceptible to the most basic control mechanism of fear. They only fear punishment but are incapable of seeing an act is wrong on their own.

 

[George-ananda]

Hello Guys,

Just a few thoughts on the faith in God.....

So do you agree that a person who believes in God and the one who doesn't live a different lives? I am not talking about fanatical dogmatic religious followers. Just a person who believes in supreme being/ the Creator and afterlife? Because most religions do imply the existence of afterlife.

So if we live our life believing in God and in the end we will find our that there is no afterlife, we will not care because we will cease to exist. No disappointment

But what if we live our life not believing in God (After us the deluge) and in the end we will find out that there is afterlife and you shall reap what you sow? Won't that be devastating?

So is it better to have faith then?

This sounds like the old 'Pascal's Wager' argument.

My issues with that argument would first be that it assumes your beliefs are an important determinant of your afterlife state. I think the quality of our hearts and minds (and not our beliefs on metaphysical issues) is what matters most. I have really found not that much difference in the moral quality and the hearts and minds of believers and non-believers in God. Although, in your arguments defense I can see how belief in God and an afterlife can motivate some people (myself included) from apathy.

 

[Pudding]

Huge fan of that quote, but just noting here that Marcus Aurelius didn't say it. There's a quote in Meditations that is similar but with a way different intent. Marcus was a polytheist after all.
Here's a better translatiom:

Greek is hard, and taking a sensible snippet and formulating an idea now fondly referred to as the atheist wager is fine. Buy but I always tag the quote with 'unknown' because the intents are just so different.

I saw the quote in other place's discussion and think the content might suit this thread but didn't bother to check whether or not the person really say it, i apologize for the inaccuracy if it's a misquote.

 

[Shad]

This sounds like the old 'Pascal's Wager' argument.

It is. I even spotted the same mistake Pascal made by injecting his religious views into the argument after the fact. Judgement, reward/punishment, etc.

 

[Pudding]

Well, we all have a different understanding of God. Each religion is just a path to THE GOD.

(1) Are you saying that each religion is just a path to the same God?
How can you prove what you say is true?

(2) There're many religions in the world, which religion belong to that group which you say is a path to the same God?
(3) If there're exception then which is it?

For me religion limits the wonderful essence of God so I do not follow any religious view of god.

(4) What is the unknown wonderful essence of God which you say limit by all religion? Please elaborate.

(5) How do all those religion limit the wonderful essence of God?

(6) How do you access and comes to know the existence of this wonderful essence of your non-religion's God?

(7) Will all of those religions' followers reap what they sow if they follow their religions' Gods but not your non-religion's God?
(8) If they'll reap what they sow for not following your non-religion's God, what is the "reap what they sow" do you mean?
Do you mean your non-religion's God will punish them in afterlife?
Please elaborate the unknown punishment you're talking about.

So if we live our life believing in God and in the end we will find our that there is no afterlife, we will not care because we will cease to exist. No disappointment

But what if we live our life not believing in God (After us the deluge) and in the end we will find out that there is afterlife and you shall reap what you sow? Won't that be devastating?

So is it better to have faith then?

Is it better to have faith in your non-religion's God?

In order to answer your question:
(9) Those religions' Gods (especially those many version of God from many abrahamic religions) who say you'll go to hell if you don't believe in them, please prove that they doesn't exist otherwise if they exist and if you don't follow them then you'll reap what you sow and go to hell which nullify what you say if your non-religion's God doesn't exist there'll be no dissapointment.
There'll be many dissapointment if your non-religion's God doesn't exist but one of those religions' God do exist.
The dissapointment is that you'll reap what you sow and go to hell.

(10) If some religion's believer wants to abandon their religion's God and follow your non-religion's God, for their benefit please explain what is the method to communicating with your non-religion's God.

(11) Please also elaborate the complete moral codes and laws your non-religion's God possess, as of now all of that is still unknown, that could be a quite important factor for some people to decide whether to follow your unknown God or not.
Who knows maybe your God is a homophobia, racist and misogyny God, many people will not follow such an immoral God, who can you blame if people guessing your God image like that since all of your God's moral and law is unknown.

 

[psychoslice]

I don't believe in anything, if there is a god there is, if there isn't then there isn't, why imprison yourself in a belief, why not just be a good person and treat others as you would like to be treated, its that simple, no god needed, unless your not a good person and can't treat others with dignity, then yes you need a belief for the sake of all of us.

 

[Ana.J]

Then your proposed Pascals Wager is simply a mental exercise for piece of mind.

Edit: What it all mad made Gods are fake?