To Blaspheme or not to Blaspheme?

[stvdv]

Should there be a difference or do the people posting here who have an opinion about what happened draw any distinction?

According to Hinduism drawing Muhammad is considered a beneficial act

So, IMO this whole blasphemy issue is a non issue for a country like France

It's none of the Muslims their business what France allows French people to draw

Hence for me it is a "don't care" whether or not "there should be a difference"; in France

 

[loverofhumanity]

True we should not insult others, BUT the main point Macron makes is that we should see the huge difference between the 2 violences done:
1) Charlie Hebdo publishes drawings in France, which is not Islamic, AND it has the right to do so as per their LAW; none of Muslims their business
2) Muslims kill French people in France for drawing a picture; again this is none of their business. This is a narcissistic power and control game

IF the second is violence 100 on the scale of 1 to 100
THEN the first is violence 2 on the scale of 1 to 100

Comparing those 2 types of violence is plain wrong

These Muslims (and all (non)Religious people) must learn 2 rules:
1) Never never impose on others your religion or your religious rules
2) What others do in their house, in their country is none of your business

Islam and Muslims claim they do not proselytize. They can fool themselves, but they don't fool me, nor will they ever fool Allah

Yes I agree fully. Violence is not the way to solve problems. France has given refuge to these people so the least they should do is be patient when these things occur and try using proper channels of communication to address the problem not killing and murdering.

That is not the way.

 

[stvdv]

France has given refuge to these people so the least they should do is be patient when these things occur and try using proper channels of communication to address the problem not killing and murdering

Very essential point, I did not even think about this
These Muslims don't know gratitude; but that is understandable if you hate the West

This will be a very difficult issue to solve, as it involves narcissistic and spiritual ego; Hindu Scriptures teach that this is incurable, alas. So, then the next best thing to do, is to keep these narcissistic people on a very short leash, as damage control. And don't allow to many in your country. I think 8% Muslims in France is far over the limit France can handle. It should not be more than 1% or 2% I think, when you want to keep a democracy.

So, IMO it seems that Macron is doing the right thing. Not an easy job, and I wish him the best.

 

[QuestioningMind]

To Blaspheme or Not to Blaspheme?

There is a huge difference between criticizing religions (being critical), as in "not blindly accept things", and blaspheming (the red part). It can be compared with the RF Rules. Criticize ideas all you want, just don't get personal, as in bullying, insulting or showing contempt.

RF Rules seem to be quite useful guidelines, and all can learn a lot from them


What are your thoughts on this subject? Would you do it differently than Macron did? Is this an important issue, needing to be solved?

Who gets to decide the line between valid criticism and showing contempt? And what if I consider my secular right to free speech/expression to be a sacred right? Could I then claim that anyone suggesting that I can't draw any cartoon I want to be blasphemous? How about if I consider the scientific method to be a sacred method and that anyone who claims that the ToE isn't valid is committing blaspheme?

Personally I think that someone drawing a picture of Mahammad is a perfectly valid means of voicing criticism. It demonstrates just how absurd it is to suggest that a religious group should be able to impose it's beliefs onto the rest of society.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Since art concerning Muhammad was not always forbidden, how can Muslims forbid it with a straight face? I would sympathize more if I didn’t know I can google Muslim art.

Personally i would never try to paint or draw prophet Muhammad, i have no idea how Muhammad looked, so why would i depict him?

 

[QuestioningMind]

What would be the purpose of such a drawing? To **** off religious people?
I do not support action seen by some muslims over drawings, but i do not understand the need for such drawing either

I'd say that the purpose of drawing such a cartoon is to point out the absurdity of allowing any religious group to impose their beliefs onto the rest of society.

 

[Spirit of Light]

it doesn't take more than 1% to spoil the whole barrel though, since the rest of the world does not discriminate that finely....hence the need of this religious group to police themselves, to prevent the insane amongst them from doing something to give everybody else a bad reputation...those provocateurs......
a fellow who had been to dubai told me that one of the higher functionaries told him when he asked why there was no extreme terror in that place, and he said it was because of reprisals, since it was "well known" [but not openly] that if anyone messed around that way their entire family line would be destroyed, so apparently that threat was sufficient and the extremists look for softer targets elsewhere......things that make you go Hmmm.

I speak only for my self as muslim, i can not take responsability for what others do or say, personally i try to never harm others.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'd say that the purpose of drawing such a cartoon is to point out the absurdity of allowing any religious group to impose their beliefs onto the rest of society.

Well the rule are for muslims to be followed, but yes some people will feel it hurtful when someone draw Muhammad since we are not supposed to do it.
The reaction given has been wrong, that i agree on.

No need to harm non muslims because of their drawings.

 

[MNoBody]

I speak only for my self as muslim, i can not take responsability for what others do or say, personally i try to never harm others.

well, of course, you seem a decent fellow who cannot be expected to speak for some ideology you did not create.....
it has to stand on its own merits, given the claimed authorship......

 

[Spirit of Light]

well, of course, you seem a decent fellow who cannot be expected to speak for some ideology you did not create.....
it has to stand on its own merits, given the claimed authorship......

Claimed authorship? Not sure what you mean here, can you elaborate on it?

 

[MNoBody]

Claimed authorship? Not sure what you mean here, can you elaborate on it?

well, the claim was that the prophet received the words of the holy quran from an angelic source
..divine, [claimed authorship]
which, if it is as claimed it will stand on its own merits, not on the merits of imperfect adherents who may fall short of such magnificent and marvelous achievement [no matter their good intentions].... at least so I have heard

 

[QuestioningMind]

Well the rule are for muslims to be followed, but yes some people will feel it hurtful when someone draw Muhammad since we are not supposed to do it.
The reaction given has been wrong, that i agree on.

No need to harm non muslims because of their drawings.

So would you then agree that publishing such a cartoon in order to highlight how absurdly some wrong thinking members of a religion react serves a valid purpose and isn't done to just ****-off certain people?

 

[stvdv]

I'd say that the purpose of drawing such a cartoon is to point out the absurdity of allowing any religious group to impose their beliefs onto the rest of society.

And this is very much needed, and maybe to late, seeing 50 thousand of Muslims who want to react violently

 

[QuestioningMind]

Its common sense not to insult a person, their mother or beliefs. Freedom doesn’t mean freedom to hate, despise and incite. One does not need to accept Islam or its laws but deliberately making a mockery of Muhammad, knowing it upsets Muslims is despicable.

Extremists on both sides I believe are wrong and common sense needs to prevail.

I don't think publishing that cartoon had anything to do with making a mockery out of Muhammad. It was all about highlighting the absurdity of allowing a religious group to impose their religious beliefs onto the rest of a secular society.

 

[stvdv]

Macron explains in a very simple and good way how he deals with the Muslim extremism situation in France (02:18-3:00)

 

[Spirit of Light]

So would you then agree that publishing such a cartoon in order to highlight how absurdly some wrong thinking members of a religion react serves a valid purpose and isn't done to just ****-off certain people?

No. I still believe those who keep doing it aftervthey know how some muslims can react still do it to get that reaction,so they can keep mocking muslims and our belief.
This is my personal view on the topic.

 

[stvdv]

I don't think publishing that cartoon had anything to do with making a mockery out of Muhammad. It was all about highlighting the absurdity of allowing a religious group to impose their religious beliefs onto the rest of a secular society.

Yes, I agree with that.

Muslims try to shift the focus and blame on the West; while they do the killing. That is narcissism in its extremist form. Very dangerous.

First they kill you (not normal, but beheading), and then they blame those who complain. How sick can one be

Unless the West is blind, these Muslims dig their own grave. The West is crazy if it accepts this

 

[QuestioningMind]

No. I still believe those who keep doing it aftervthey know how some muslims can react still do it to get that reaction,so they can keep mocking muslims and our belief.
This is my personal view on the topic.

Yes, those who are doing it do it because they know it will highlight how some Muslims will react. They do it to point out how wrong and dangerous such a reaction is. They are not doing it to mock YOU or YOUR beliefs, since you do NOT believe that it's okay to react with violence and death to the printing of a mere cartoon. It's focused on those radical Muslims who think that violence and death IS the proper response to someone publishing a cartoon. You are clearly an individual who believes in peace, non-violence, and allowing people to hold whatever beliefs they desire, so I find it very confusing that you feel mocked by people pointing out the absurdity of radical Muslims who promote violence against those who practice alternative beliefs.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yes, those who are doing it do it because they know it will highlight how some Muslims will react. They do it to point out how wrong and dangerous such a reaction is. They are not doing it to mock YOU or YOUR beliefs, since you do NOT believe that it's okay to react with violence and death to the printing of a mere cartoon. It's focused on those radical Muslims who think that violence and death IS the proper response to someone publishing a cartoon. You are clearly an individual who believes in peace, non-violence, and allowing people to hold whatever beliefs they desire, so I find it very confusing that you feel mocked by people pointing out the absurdity of radical Muslims who promote violence against those who practice alternative beliefs.

On this i agree on the first part your reply.
Second part where you are confused about my stand. The answer is.
Yes i dont directly see it as very harmful for a non muto draw a cartoon of a spiritual leader, but in the same time, since muslims should not draw it or even see it, it kind of is touching on my feelings when i know that if those drawings was not published in the first place, radikal muslims would probably not act the way they do.

My understanding of those radical muslims are that they get provoced to a degree that make them act out in voilence. I do not know, but maybe they feel their action is the only solution in todays society.
I believe non action would be better.

 

[QuestioningMind]

On this i agree on the first part your reply.
Second part where you are confused about my stand. The answer is.
Yes i dont directly see it as very harmful for a non muto draw a cartoon of a spiritual leader, but in the same time, since muslims should not draw it or even see it, it kind of is touching on my feelings when i know that if those drawings was not published in the first place, radikal muslims would probably not act the way they do.

My understanding of those radical muslims are that they get provoced to a degree that make them act out in voilence. I do not know, but maybe they feel their action is the only solution in todays society.
I believe non action would be better.

My understanding of those radical muslims are that they get provoced to a degree that make them act out in voilence. I do not know, but maybe they feel their action is the only solution in todays society.
I believe non action would be better.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote above sounds like what an abuser says to try and excuse their abuse. I don't care what words or images a person might use to provoke their spouse, it can never rise to the degree where physical violence or murder is justified. Your words might provoke me, but they can never MAKE me react with violence... how I react to being provoked is 100% on me, no matter how hurtful I might find your words to be.

And we ALL have to hold people responsible for how they choose to react to mere words or images. Even if I completely understand why a group is upset by what someone said and would completely support them speaking out against what what said, I would NEVER condone them reacting with violence and would never excuse their violent behavior by suggestion that they were somehow MADE to react violently. We all have to stand up against radical violence, otherwise any group that decides it will react violently to anything said that offends them will effectively be able to silence the rest of society. It's the only way a free and civilized society can function.