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To my Jewish friends on this forum...

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think you have done all the leg work already and have built your web and are waiting for a Christian to step into it.

Your assumption is interesting. Especially given I have made no assumptions about you.

Please be aware, it was an offer. You could have just said no thanks. You are not the first RF's that I offered this to who had their reasons they didn't want to do it. There was one RF who did a few years ago, and it was great experience.

BTW, if you read what I wrote you would know that I offered to go through ALL ancient Hebrew texts and not just Masoretic ones, Torath Mosheh Jews use all ancient Hebrew texts in a matter like this and not just one type. i.e. as we all know Masoretic means with vowel points and grammer marks added. This means that I have no problem going to the Torah Scrolls (w/o vowels and punctiation) Samaritan Torah, the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.

The following may help.

 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
No, you know I don't read Hebrew.

Yes, I just wanted you to make it clear. Thank you.

Are you saying that you want me to show where the Messiah is said to be killed and resurrected in the Tanach?

It is up to you. Can you can present whatever you want. We go to VARIOUS ancient Hebrew texts, even the non-Masoretic ones and you can show me how what you are saying is supported by what I show you. On my side of things I have to show you what the various Hebrew texts are, their history, and where I am getting the information from of what the text means.

The Gospel of Matthew is said to have been written in Hebrew or Aramaic originally but the text is lost if it existed.

By stating, "is said" means that it is debatable and if even if it was early Christians didn't preserve that version. If I remember correctly, there is like one or two "church fathers" who may have made that claim. Further, even if it were true it would still have to go through the same critique that any text goes through. Also, even if there was a Hebrew version of Matthew most Christians world wide would not even be able to read it.

Are you saying that the spread of the gospel message from Jerusalem to the world did not happen as written in the Acts of the Apostles? If so, why do you think that?

Well, let's take a look at that. Can you give me an account outside of the book of Acts for what is claimed to have happend in Acts 2:8? I.e. can you show me where the Jews from the locations mentioned in Acts 2:8 claim to have witnessed those accounts.

Also, can you give the names of some of the Jews in the 3rd to 4th cent. who descend from the Christians mentioned in Acts? Also, are there any Jews you can identify today who descend from the people mentioned in Acts?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think it was more a case of Jesus being aware that the language of the spirit is meaningless to those who have closed themselves off to spiritual matters.

What you wrote sounds like the same thing to me. The authors of the gospels appear to make it clear that jesus intentially stated things in order for them not to be understood.

This seems to be alluded to in the gospel of Thomas.

upload_2022-11-22_14-43-7.png
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
What you wrote sounds like the same thing to me. The authors of the gospels appear to make it clear that jesus intentially stated things in order for them not to be understood.

This seems to be alluded to in the gospel of Thomas.

View attachment 68770


There is a question of intent here. Was it Jesus’ direct intention not to be understood by certain parties, or was it that he knew his words would only be understood those with ‘ears to hear’? In the second instance, we may interpret it as wilful deafness on the part of those who simply will not hear; Christ could lead his flock to the still waters, as it were, but he could not make them drink.

Matthew 13:15-17 makes it clear that there are those who simply will not hear. That is their own, possibly unconscious, decision. If the fool has said in his heart that there is no God, how can he be persuaded to hear the message? How much more so, the pious hypocrite who claims to love God, but treats his fellow men and women with contempt? That one thinks he already knows God, but his actions suggest he does not. There are many such people, it would seem, in all religions.

There is also, of course, a question of idiom and understanding. Language is a living thing, and it’s meaning is often ambiguous, transparent to some, opaque to others. In Bulgakov’s The Master and Margarita, the devil says to Matthew Levi, “We speak different languages, you and I. But the things we say do not change, for all that.”
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was an outsider until 28. Are you saying I wasn't open minded? Wasn't objective?

I'm saying that you could read scripture more objectively as an unbeliever than once you decided that it was the word of a perfect god. At that time, your manner of reading it changed. How do I know? I went from outsider to insider to outsider, and the way we all read scripture from the inside was different from before and after. The difference is that in one case, one asks what do the words say, and in the other, what truth am I reading now, and what needs to be the case for this to be true - what must the words mean given that they are correct.

Do you assume that somehow a believe is not objective but an outsider is because somehow he is better?

An unbeliever is free to read scripture without needing to distort its meaning if it reveals contradiction or other error. If another unbeliever sees contradiction, so will I, but not the believer.

Are you the judge of what are failed prophesies at the expense of what believers interpret the prophecies to mean?

I am the judge of what constitutes a display of transhuman prescience (quality prophecy) and what does not. I am able to judge when a prophecy is so nonspecific as to be very human in origin.

Is it you are more of a literalist?

I can tell you what the words say, and being a native speaker of the language, what they mean, as I do with every other book written in comprehensible English (post-Chaucer). The way you would read the Iliad or Odyssey is how I read them AND all scripture. The way you read every other book is how I read the Bible. I'll bet we'd agree on the errors that we find in those other books, and recognize any contradictions and both of us call them that, because that's what a "literalist" does. We could do that for Harry Potter, the Hobbit, and Game of Thrones as well, and be in agreement, but as soon as we pulled out the Bible, only one of us would remain a "literalist."

The fact that you say "skeptic" could be a show that one isn't open-minded. Maybe could be but potentially not because a skeptic can be saying, "You have failed prophecies, IYO, and you won't convince me otherwise"... quite close-minded IMV.

That's a lay definition of skeptic, which means unbeliever. In critical thinking, a skeptic is one who doesn't accept claims as truth until they meet certain requirements. This latter skeptic can be convinced with a sound argument if he is also a critical thinker. My mind is open to any evidence and argument that you can present to defend a claim that a given prophecy is of high quality and was fulfilled - the minimum requirement for transhuman prescience.

You also don't have open- and closed-minded defined properly. Let me give you an example of each. The moderator in the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye on whether creationism is a viable scientific pursuit asked, “What would change your minds?” Scientist Bill Nye answered, “Evidence.” Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, “Nothing. I'm a Christian.” Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."

Which one has the mind closed to new or contradictory evidence? Which one is saying that the other can't convince him of anything whatever the truth and evidence might be?

Nye is the skeptic in this as I use the word - unwilling to accept insufficiently claims - but Ham is as you use the word - unwilling to even consider ideas that contradict what he has chosen to believe by faith. Nye actually said that Nye couldn't "convince [him] otherwise."
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
There is a question of intent here. Was it Jesus’ direct intention not to be understood by certain parties, or was it that he knew his words would only be understood those with ‘ears to hear’? In the second instance, we may interpret it as wilful deafness on the part of those who simply will not hear; Christ could lead his flock to the still waters, as it were, but he could not make them drink.

Matthew 13:15-17 makes it clear that there are those who simply will not hear. That is their own, possibly unconscious, decision. If the fool has said in his heart that there is no God, how can he be persuaded to hear the message? How much more so, the pious hypocrite who claims to love God, but treats his fellow men and women with contempt? That one thinks he already knows God, but his actions suggest he does not. There are many such people, it would seem, in all religions.

There is also, of course, a question of idiom and understanding. Language is a living thing, and it’s meaning is often ambiguous, transparent to some, opaque to others. In Bulgakov’s The Master and Margarita, the devil says to Matthew Levi, “We speak different languages, you and I. But the things we say do not change, for all that.”

There is also the issue of whether whoever inspired the jesus any said any of thus found in the new testament. For example, some Christians claim that he spoke in Aramaic but the NT is written in Greek. Galieeian Aramaic is conceptually very different than Koine Greek. Again, one has to determine if they believet he NT authors are accurate sources of information and if they had the ability in Greek to accurately convey something that may or may not have happened historically.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
There is also the issue of whether whoever inspired the jesus any said any of thus found in the new testament. For example, some Christians claim that he spoke in Aramaic but the NT is written in Greek. Galieeian Aramaic is conceptually very different than Koine Greek. Again, one has to determine if they believet he NT authors are accurate sources of information and if they had the ability in Greek to accurately convey something that may or may not have happened historically.
Did Moses speak Hebrew?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
:D
So, a question is posed "to my Jewish friends on this forum ..." and we're graced with seven pages heavily laced with non-Jewish apologetics ranging from Christian to Messianic to Urantia. Gotta love it.​
:D
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
It seems everyone leans on their own understanding, everyone chooses what groups to follow, what books to read.

When I say "lean unto my own understanding" I mean forming an opinion without consideration of others input. It seems at least for me that more often than not groups and books cross my path without me choosing the path that they cross that I happen to be on. Sometimes to my delight sometimes to my chagrin. The challenge is in paying attention with integrity to what has crossed your path.

I guess it comes down to changing beliefs. I admire anyone who has left their faith, who has changed their beliefs with new information. If understanding can change and grow, it is at least not about ego, but honesty that forms beliefs.

I don't know that I would say admire. Many people leave their faith for the wrong reasons. Its too hard, too unrealistic, too against what I feel I want to do etc.
But I understand what your saying. It is an admirable thing to have the strength of character to be able to follow perceived truth where ever it may lead.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
There is also the issue of whether whoever inspired the jesus any said any of thus found in the new testament. For example, some Christians claim that he spoke in Aramaic but the NT is written in Greek. Galieeian Aramaic is conceptually very different than Koine Greek. Again, one has to determine if they believet he NT authors are accurate sources of information and if they had the ability in Greek to accurately convey something that may or may not have happened historically.


Well to me, as a Christian in the loosest sense of the word, the historical accuracy of the Gospels is of less importance than the moral, philosophical and spiritual teaching contained in the text.

It is possible that the Jesus of the Gospels bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus; the nature of Jesus the man, and of the Living Christ, would be a matter of faith, rather than something that could be confirmed by scholarship imo. Still, the message - John 15:12 , that you should love each other, as I have loved you - resonates down the centuries. So the meaning and intent of Christ’s message in the Gospel stories matters, even if they are just stories. They are important stories to Christians and arguably to the whole of Christendom; they have cultural, theological and moral gravitas. They are significant.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
:D
So, a question is posed "to my Jewish friends on this forum ..." and we're graced with seven pages heavily laced with non-Jewish apologetics ranging from Christian to Messianic to Urantia. Gotta love it.​
:D
That's what i was thinking! Im not Jewish so I ain't really participated in this thread cuz it wasnt directed to me. But I've been reading it and have it watched and now there's apologetics. Also a surprising amount of folk who aren't jewish have replied


(Edited to reword)
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
:D
So, a question is posed "to my Jewish friends on this forum ..." and we're graced with seven pages heavily laced with non-Jewish apologetics ranging from Christian to Messianic to Urantia. Gotta love it.​
:D
That tells you something about the human condition. Most everyone has an overwhelming desire to be heard, to be justified, and to get others to agree with them so they may justify themselves to themselves.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
That tells you something about the human condition. Most everyone has an overwhelming desire to be heard, to be justified, and to get others to agree with them so they may justify themselves to themselves.
Perhaps we should offer extra points to those who model their observation. :)
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
:D
So, a question is posed "to my Jewish friends on this forum ..." and we're graced with seven pages heavily laced with non-Jewish apologetics ranging from Christian to Messianic to Urantia. Gotta love it.​
:D
I'm Jewish, I'm related to Benjamin Netanyahu according to CRI Institute. I just don't keep many of the holidays, laws, dietary requirements etc.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I'm Jewish, I'm related to Benjamin Netanyahu according to CRI Institute. I just don't keep many of the holidays, laws, dietary requirements etc.
I suspect that the author of the the OP was referring to those who identify as Jewish in the RF's "Religion" field, but if you choose to hide your cult allegiance behind some DNA in order to justify your participation you should certainly feel free to do so. :)
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I suspect that the author of the the OP was referring to those who identify as Jewish in the RF's "Religion" field, but if you choose to hide your cult allegiance behind some DNA in order to justify your participation you should certainly feel free to do so. :)
Oh there's no hiding my affiliation with the Urantia Book, I talk about it all the time on RF.

156:2.8 Jesus greatly enjoyed the keen sense of humor which these gentiles exhibited. It was the sense of humor displayed by Norana, the Syrian woman, as well as her great and persistent faith, that so touched the Master’s heart and appealed to his mercy. Jesus greatly regretted that his people—the Jews—were so lacking in humor. He once said to Thomas: “My people take themselves too seriously; they are just about devoid of an appreciation of humor. The burdensome religion of the Pharisees could never have had origin among a people with a sense of humor. They also lack consistency; they strain at gnats and swallow camels.” UB 1955

IMOP
 
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The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
What was done to Leviticus?
The entire nature of the laws set down for the Tribe of Levites was changed in the bible to that of Laws for All. As well, what began as conditions that made one ritually unclean were then twisted to be absolute sins and "abominations" to be avoided at all costs, of which Christians have cherry-picked to their own political ends. (Ref. homosexuality) In the Torah, there is no such notion of abomination, but rather that of impurity, and the only effect it has on oneself is that one must be ritually purified before entering the temple.

The KJV has errors and the good thing is that many errors have been fixed in the KJV.
No, they really aren't being fixed, as they are still inherent.
1. Studies of the New Testament manuscripts were woefully incomplete at the time the KJV was commissioned and written. The translators of the KJV only had the Textus Receptus and the Latin Vulgate. Sure, modern translations remove the verses that were added to the KJV, but that does not resolve the poor translations that were done using already inaccurate translations through the Greek texts and the Latin Vulgate.
2. To add to this poor translation, there are instances where words are introduced as a "best guess" using contemporary language and imagery, such as "unicorn" and "witch". Elements which were not present in the original texts, and have led to massive political and cultural conflicts.
3. There were conscious political changes to the text issued from King James himself. At the bottom of the issue, the KJV is a political commission, and infringes on the veracity of the biblical text and claims by altering wording to allow for numerous loses of cultural and linguistic nuance, and better instill the message that King James wanted the bible to tell.

your concentration on the KJV seems unwarranted. It is just another translation with errors like other translations.
Gee, almost like I've never stated that the bible itself is a horrible mismanagement of culture and language...

This ex cold case cop says that the differences (or many of them at least) indicate witness reports which vary between witnesses.
I don't think you're quite understanding. This is not something that's a "difference of witness reports" because, by most accounts, Judas was alone. Who was there to witness it? As well, it's not a matter of "Person A says Judas poisoned himself, Person B says Judas was poisoned" no; Did Judas:
  1. Hang himself in guilt over his betrayal of Jesus, after which his bowels split open?
  2. Fall on his plow while plowing his new (and cursed) field?
  3. Get stoned to death by the other Apostles?
These three deaths bear nothing in common, and mar the veracity of the Gospel accounts in their contradiction. And they're not alone.

The story of Jesus birth and early years can be harmonised along with other things in the gospels that look like contradictions to some.
With enough mental gymnastics and blind faith, anyone can make "sense" of anything. That does not make it less a contradiction.

The gospels that were not accepted were the ones written later
No, they weren't. Several were written around the same time, and some - like the Gospel of the Hebrews - were written before the canonical gospels. All gospels - including the Big Four - were an ongoing process over and during the Second Century. Mark is regarded as the earliest in it's beginning, dated at 70 CE, but it was not completed until around 110 CE. The other three range around 110 CE for their authorship, though some - like Luke - saw revisions and additions throughout the early and mid-Second Century. The Apocrypha are not accepted because the contradict the message that the Council of Hippo decided upon in 393 CE.

The authors of the gospels we have can be worked out from the internal evidence and Church tradition. It appears to be the false gospels, written late, that are not anonymous and I would say, that is a good way of identifying them as forgeries that the authors wanted to be accepted as real by adding their names.
"This text that we have that doesn't have an author and could be several people is more valid than this known person telling their experience, because they were obviously in it for the fame." Make it make sense. Especially as you laud the KING JAMES Version Bible.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Did Moses speak Hebrew?

If you are talking about Mosheh ben-Amram, let's just say he spoke the following:

upload_2022-11-22_19-48-33.png


upload_2022-11-22_19-50-31.png


upload_2022-11-22_19-52-38.png


Calling what he spoke (עברית ישראלי) Ivrith Yisraeli and also the dialects of Kemetic would be an accurate description of the langauges of his time. And, again if we are talking Mosheh ben-Amram then this discussion in the below video would have been clear to him.


 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Well to me, as a Christian in the loosest sense of the word, the historical accuracy of the Gospels is of less importance than the moral, philosophical and spiritual teaching contained in the text.

It is possible that the Jesus of the Gospels bears little resemblance to the historical Jesus; the nature of Jesus the man, and of the Living Christ, would be a matter of faith, rather than something that could be confirmed by scholarship imo. Still, the message - John 15:12 , that you should love each other, as I have loved you - resonates down the centuries. So the meaning and intent of Christ’s message in the Gospel stories matters, even if they are just stories. They are important stories to Christians and arguably to the whole of Christendom; they have cultural, theological and moral gravitas. They are significant.

Fair enough. Yeah, Torath Mosheh Jews would stay away from something like that. But to each their own. ;)
 
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