To my Jewish friends on this forum...

[Colt]

Do y'all get annoyed when Christians come in trying to explain your own holy scriptures to you? I see this happen all. the time. In discussions, in debates, it seems to happen a lot. I just know I'd get annoyed personally, but that's just me.

The Purpose of Jesus’ Parables
(Isaiah 6:1–13; Mark 4:10–12; Luke 8:9–10)

10Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

‘Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’b14In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled:

‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.15For this people’s heart has grown callous;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts,

and turn, and I would heal them.’

Jesus, who was Jewish and knew the scriptures, tried to open the eyes of the collection of Jewish holy men, lawyers and quibblers to the spiritual teachings within their own scriptures but it was mainly the common citizens who understood him. IMOP today Christians are still trying in vain to open the eyes of people in Judaism.

 

[idea]

This sounds a bit New Agey. What " laws"? If you mean the laws of physics, those are the only ones that I can think of, then your claim is refuted by a "So what?". The laws of physics do not point towards a deity nor do they seem to need one.

Finger pointing to moon is ancient Buddhist teaching.

חֻקּוֹת חֻקָּה
שָׁמַיִם שָׁמַיִם
וָאָרֶץ אֶרֶץ

ordinances of heaven and earth

 

[idea]

Please google up what "fallacy" is.

"The Jews knows better because they are the Jews" - is a straight forward fallacy. I don't know why you and your many friends have to use it and fall for it in this thread though.

4 realities
How you see yourself
How others see you
How you think others see you
The truth

The truth is neither what anyone thinks of themselves, nor is it what others think.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You already know that the child in Elijah went on to die again but Jesus did not.
So you give no reason for me being wrong except that you do not believe it.

No, I know of no such thing. Not only do I NOT think that Jesus ascended, I do NOT even think he rose from the dead. The gospels and the book of Acts combine a lot of legend with history. They are not reliable accounts of what actually happened. I think Jesus died, and his followers had a case of bereavement delusion. You would be surprised to hear just how common it is for those who are grieving to see the dead person.

You are the one making the claim that he rose from the dead, thus you are the one responsible to supply adequate proof, and you cannot.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Finger pointing to moon is ancient Buddhist teaching.

חֻקּוֹת חֻקָּה
שָׁמַיִם שָׁמַיִם
וָאָרֶץ אֶרֶץ

ordinances of heaven and earth

So what?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would trust a Jewish person's interpretation of the scriptures, since they are originally theirs, than a Christian.

Christians are not devoid of the capacity to engage in worthwhile scholarship. I would trust anyone committed to informed explication over impassioned eisegesis.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It

The Purpose of Jesus’ Parables
(Isaiah 6:1–13; Mark 4:10–12; Luke 8:9–10)

10Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

‘Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’b14In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled:

‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.15For this people’s heart has grown callous;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts,

and turn, and I would heal them.’

Jesus, who was Jewish and knew the scriptures, tried to open the eyes of the collection of Jewish holy men, lawyers and quibblers to the spiritual teachings within their own scriptures but it was mainly the common citizens who understood him. IMOP today Christians are still trying in vain to open the eyes of people in Judaism.

That is a nice excuse to use when others saw through the deception. That is a defensive verse. They are indicative that a work did not come from God.

 

[setarcos]

Do y'all get annoyed when Christians come in trying to explain your own holy scriptures to you? I see this happen all. the time. In discussions, in debates, it seems to happen a lot. I just know I'd get annoyed personally, but that's just me.

I must apologize and confess I may be guilty of this.
I can only say that from my viewpoint I try to "lean not unto my own understanding" but when it comes to other faiths quote from their respective teachers or simply debate their respective beliefs if those beliefs overlap mine concerning a mutual phenomena. After all God,...or nature, gave us all the capacity to reason together to some extent so if we can swallow our emotions and push our own arrogance aside for a wee bit that's what we should do. I think?

 

[Colt]

The Patches and the Wineskins
(Matthew 9:16–17; Luke 5:36–39)

21No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, and a worse tear will result.22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. Instead, new wine is poured into new wineskins.”

It was a huge blunder for the early followers of Jesus to attempt to justify their faith in him by exploiting the Old Testament prophets. With Jesus people were to start over with his liberating gospel. It is true that Christians get tangled up in the weeds when debating the OT with members of Judaism.

IMOP

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Most atheists were once Christians or other religion.
And many have actually read at least one version of the bible, unlike many christians

Exactly. Many atheists and agnostics who were once Christians are more knowledgeable about the Bible than most Christians. Some Christians like to use the defense of allegedly having "spiritual discernment" if they are outperformed by ex-Christians who are more knowledgeable about the Bible than they are. I was recently accused by a Christian of misunderstanding what the Bible actually says.

I have never challenged any Jewish members about their scriptures or beliefs, but I have disagreed with a few Bahá'is over a specific belief of their religion and explained why I disagreed with this belief. As a former Christian, I have had disagreements with Christians regarding the Bible, the nature of God, and other topics related to Christianity. I don't see this as an issue like the one you described, though, because I was a Christian for 30 years, and I read the Bible several times and studied Christian theology during these years.

 

[Colt]

Exactly. Many atheists and agnostics who were once Christians are more knowledgeable about the Bible than most Christians. Some Christians like to use the defense of allegedly having "spiritual discernment" if they are outperformed by ex-Christians who are more knowledgeable about the Bible than they are. The most recent accusation against me was "having a tangle of misunderstanding of what the scriptures are saying."

One can have more genuine faith in God then knowledge of the Bible. In fact, I think they may be better off just developing their relationship with God and tred lightly in the OT, completely ignore the Book of incoherent Revelation, maybe even stick with the parts of the red letters that sound true! IMOP

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

One can have more genuine faith in God then knowledge of the Bible. In fact, I think they may be better off just developing their relationship with God and tred lightly in the OT, completely ignore the Book of incoherent Revelation, maybe even stick with the parts of the red letters that sound true! IMOP

Personally, I think that people should read the Bible for what it is and not read it with rose-colored glasses. That's the mistake that I made when I was a devout Christian. As an ex-Christian, I know that it's much easier on a Christian's conscience to blame mankind or the devil for the evil in the world rather than blame a "loving and merciful" God that a Christian genuinely believes in and has faith in.

 

[metis]

Do y'all get annoyed when Christians come in trying to explain your own holy scriptures to you? I see this happen all. the time. In discussions, in debates, it seems to happen a lot. I just know I'd get annoyed personally, but that's just me.

I got more annoyed by the intolerance and being told that Jews can't go to heaven because they aren't Christian. Fortunately, the church I converted back to doesn't any longer teach this.

 

[metis]

Or an atheist trying to explain scriptures to Christians. But, I have to just be patient and loving. (or try to )

Hey, I know there are some atheists and agnostics who have a better understanding of the scriptures than some Christians, let me tell ya.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Fortunately, the church I converted back to doesn't any longer teach this.

Pope John did a lot of good work.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

an atheist trying to explain scriptures to Christians.

Any outsider can give you a more open-minded, objective account of what the words mean. He has no agenda to make it seem like the words of a god, so he has no need to try to explain why failed prophecies aren't really failed prophecies, and internal contradictions aren't really contradictions, and errors in history and science aren't really errors at all once you look at them just right.

The skeptic is fine with the idea that the scriptures are flawed. The believer won't even consider that. It's not an error - it's an allegory. And a day isn't a day. And saved by faith and saved by works mean the same thing. The skeptic has no reason to invoke such verbal gymnastics, and that makes him a more objective interpreter of what scripture says.

What I do see often is nonChristians lecturing Christians on how best to interpret their scriptures.

No, what you see is Christians explaining what their scriptures mean and critical thinkers dissenting. I'm in a thread now with a Christian explaining to us why the prophecy of Israel reforming is evidence of a superhuman prescience. Why would any of us be discussing that with him had he not introduced it and made false claims about it?

Those scriptures belong to whoever embraces them on a deep spiritual and religious level.

Like all literature, they belong to the world.

I guess it would be annoying for Jews but really just because the majority of Jews say (are told) the scriptures mean one thing that does not make them right just because they are the majority

And as you can see, that's how I feel about interpreting Christian scripture.

Why do you think the writings of Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus?

Paul's contradictions of Jesus. (answering-christianity.com)
List of Contradictions of Jesus by Paul to make New Theology | Just Give Them The Truth (wordpress.com)

I understand that you will see no contradiction there. That's your job as a faithful believer. If one scripture says black and another white, the apologist is ready to explain why those are the same thing, which is why his interpretations of scripture are of little value to the skeptic, who can read it for himself and understands that black is not white.

 

[metis]

Pope John did a lot of good work.

IMO, exactly. Without Vatican II, I would not have ever become Catholic to begin with.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I got more annoyed by the intolerance and being told that Jews can't go to heaven because they aren't Christian. Fortunately, the church I converted back to doesn't any longer teach this.

You once informed me that the Catholic Church no longer teaches that protestants cannot be saved outside of its Church (Catholic Answers | How Protestants Are Saved). Was this belief discarded under the influence of a Pope or did he have a direct hand in it?

 

[metis]

You once informed me that the Catholic Church no longer teaches that protestants cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church (Catholic Answers | How Protestants Are Saved). Was this belief discarded under the influence of Pope Francis or did he have a direct hand in it?

Neither, as this was a byproduct of Vatican II, but it did take a while for it to be manifested after that. Pope Francis is VERY open to ecumenism, and it's driving some of the conservative bishop nuts.

 

[idea]

I must apologize and confess I may be guilty of this.
I can only say that from my viewpoint I try to "lean not unto my own understanding" but when it comes to other faiths quote from their respective teachers or simply debate their respective beliefs if those beliefs overlap mine concerning a mutual phenomena. After all God,...or nature, gave us all the capacity to reason together to some extent so if we can swallow our emotions and push our own arrogance aside for a wee bit that's what we should do. I think?

It seems everyone leans on their own understanding, everyone chooses what groups to follow, what books to read.

I guess it comes down to changing beliefs. I admire anyone who has left their faith, who has changed their beliefs with new information. If understanding can change and grow, it is at least not about ego, but honesty that forms beliefs.