To my Jewish friends on this forum...

[Brian2]

Oh, but it's so much more than just a "fulfilment of prophecy". That's just the New Testament that you all would be going on about, which I imagine a Jew would view as just so many fairy tales and Paul talking out his brown-town express.

No, the bigger problem, I imagine, would be what you all think the Old Testament says, relying entirely on shoddy translations swayed heavily by political movements, as well as retroactively influenced by even more shoddy Greek to Latin to English translations of the New Testament also influenced in no small part by politics and in-fighting. Then treating this hideous Frankenstein's Monster as though it's the definitive version of those stories when they're more comparable to Marvel Comics take on Norse mythology.

I would have thought they are more serious and accurate than Marvel Comics take on Norse mythology.
I would say that the Christian translators of the scriptures are learned and know what they are talking about and how to translate accurately.
The Jewish translators use the Masoretic text, as do the Christian translators, but the Christian translators are more open to using other older texts in their translations.
But I imagine the real problem is that the Jews see the Gospel story, the actual story of what happened, as not true. That of course is something that all non believers have a problem with.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Do y'all get annoyed when Christians come in trying to explain your own holy scriptures to you? I see this happen all. the time. In discussions, in debates, it seems to happen a lot. I just know I'd get annoyed personally, but that's just me.

No, what actually annoys me is when their 'church doctrine' goes directly against their own holy scriptures, or isn't even founded on scriptures. What do you say then? Black is white & up is down.
That's why I've given up trying to talk to Xians, their 'church doctrine' is supreme. Not Scripture.
(Not just them of course, Jews are the same)

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

No, what actually annoys me is when their 'church doctrine' goes directly against their own holy scriptures, or isn't even founded on scriptures. What do you say then? Black is white & up is down.
That's why I've given up trying to talk to Xians, their 'church doctrine' is supreme. Not Scripture.
(Not just them of course, Jews are the same)

To be fair, I suspect they may be following Paul's writings.

But if that's the case, you can still make the argument of, why do Paul's writings take importance over the teachings of Jesus?

 

[Sedim Haba]

To be fair, I suspect they may be following Paul's writings.

But if that's the case, you can still make the argument of, why do Paul's writings take importance over the teachings of Jesus?

They don't even follow Paul. Paul advocated the Noachide Laws, MINIMUM STANDARD
obedience to G-d, and their knee-jerk reaction to anything 'Law' ? ... NOPE.

 

[Brian2]

To be fair, I suspect they may be following Paul's writings.

But if that's the case, you can still make the argument of, why do Paul's writings take importance over the teachings of Jesus?

Why do you think the writings of Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus? The early Church did not seem to think so.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Surely the simplest reason is that Jews don't believe God raised Jesus from the dead.
If you believed that you would believe whom He is and the rest would all fall into place.

You are right we don't believe in the resurrection. But let's face it -- even if Jesus came back from the dead, it would not prove he was the messiah. In a nutshell, you will recognize the messiah when someone fulfills all the messianic prophecies. Jesus didn't. He's automatically excluded.

 

[Brian2]

They don't even follow Paul. Paul advocated the Noachide Laws, MINIMUM STANDARD
obedience to G-d, and their knee-jerk reaction to anything 'Law' ? ... NOPE.

It is hard to find Noahide Laws in the scriptures imo.
But really Paul was not advocating Noahide Laws as something that is part of the gospel message and required by Christians in order to be saved. That the Gentiles should follow Noahide Law was decided at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) and it was instituted in those days so that the Jewish Christians (many of whom were still zealous for the Law) would associate with Gentile Christians (who were not zealous for the Law but were under the New Covenant only and not the Covenant of Moses)
As time went by and the proportion of Jewish Christians dropped, the need for that decision became less.

 

[Brian2]

You are right we don't believe in the resurrection. But let's face it -- even if Jesus came back from the dead, it would not prove he was the messiah. In a nutshell, you will recognize the messiah when someone fulfills all the messianic prophecies. Jesus didn't. He's automatically excluded.

He's not excluded if God raised Him from the dead and showed His approval for Jesus. It certainly would be easier then for Jews to see the Christian interpretations in the Hebrew scriptures.
It would also means that Jesus is still alive and working on the other Messianic prophecies and can return to complete that work and bring salvation for rest of the Jews when they look on the one that they have pierced. (Zech 12:10)

 

[Aštra’el]

"their scripture"

I realize that Christians have appropriated the Jewish sacred texts, but the Tanakh is still OUR scriptures. That's the whole point of this thread.

Those scriptures belong to whoever embraces them on a deep spiritual and religious level.

 

[Sedim Haba]

It is hard to find Noahide Laws in the scriptures imo....

Not really. Paul mentions some of them off-hand, like it's common knowledge (NOT in Acts).
Thing is, noachide laws pre-date Jewish law, and are human law. This covenant covers all.
But, it's pointless to try to educate. Xians will continue to eat blood and have a sunday
Shabbat as that's what 'church doctrine' says is fine. I don't care anymore.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Those scriptures belong to whoever embraces them on a deep spiritual and religious level.

Unless of course they warp and distort them to fit a different narrative. That's appropriation.

 

[Brian2]

Not really. Paul mentions some of them off-hand, like it's common knowledge (NOT in Acts).
Thing is, noachide laws pre-date Jewish law, and are human law. This covenant covers all.
But, it's pointless to try to educate. Xians will continue to eat blood and have a sunday
Shabbat as that's what 'church doctrine' says is fine. I don't care anymore.

The Noahide Laws would be common knowledge for a Jew like Paul, but hard to find in the Hebrew scriptures imo.
For a Christian the New Covenant is not any of the Covenants in the Hebrew Scriptures but as you probably know, we do use those scriptures to inform us of what God is like and what He likes.
Going toward the time of Jesus the requirements of God became more honed down. (do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God Micah 6:8) In the New Testament it was love that the whole law is built on and which fulfills the law.

 

[Sedim Haba]

@Brian2 Nope.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[IndigoChild5559]

He's not excluded if God raised Him from the dead and showed His approval for Jesus. It certainly would be easier then for Jews to see the Christian interpretations in the Hebrew scriptures.
It would also means that Jesus is still alive and working on the other Messianic prophecies and can return to complete that work and bring salvation for rest of the Jews when they look on the one that they have pierced. (Zech 12:10)

I'm sorry but you are simply mistaken. We have the story of Elijah raising a child from the dead -- but this resurrected child was not the messiah (or God).

Basically, Jesus had his chance. He tried. He failed. Time to move on.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Those scriptures belong to whoever embraces them on a deep spiritual and religious level.

Says the person who appropriates.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Basically, Jesus had his chance. He tried. He failed. Time to move on.

Actually, he didn't stand a chance against Esau. Rome conquers all.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Surely the simplest reason is that Jews don't believe God raised Jesus from the dead.
If you believed that you would believe whom He is and the rest would all fall into place.

No, that is not it at all. If it was anything like that we would simply say that is the issue. It isn't, because in Jewish texts for several thousand years Hashem has raised numerous people from the dead. One person is not something special to us.

Besides, it is not like I see any evidence that anyone named "jesus" was proven to be raised from the dead, directly from a "god."

Further, IF historically that is what happened then there would be no reason for any Christian in history to try and convince a Jew to become a Christian. Also, the early Jewish Christians would have survived rather than dying out within 2 generations of their start.

It is like that time I offered several Christians on this forum that I would do a Zoom with them where we take the Hebrew Tanakh w/o translation and they could attempt to prove to me that their ideas are derived from the Hebrew Tanakh. To date no one has taken me up on that offer.

Would you be willing?

 

[Sedim Haba]

No, that is not it at all. If it was anything like that we would simply say that is the issue. It iesn't, because in Jewish texts for several thousand years Hashem has raised numerous people from the dead. One person is not something special to us. Besides, it is not like I see any evidence that anyone named "jesus" was proven to be raised from the dead, directly from a "god."

Further, IF historically that is what happened then there would be no reason for any Christian in history to try and convince a Jew to become a Christian. Also, the early Jewish Christians would have survived rather than dying out within 2 generations of their start.

It is like that time I offered several Christians on this forum that I would do a Zoom with them where we take the Hebrew Tanakh w/o translation and they could attempt to prove to me that their ideas are derived from the Hebrew Tanakh. To date no one has taken me up on that offer.

Would you be willing?

Ya, not gonna happen.
As a Ex- Messianic Jew for four decades, I can assure you you're wasting your time there.
But, you should know that the early Jewish Xians were killed off by Roman Xians. No surprise really.

 

[Harel13]

Do y'all get annoyed when Christians come in trying to explain your own holy scriptures to you? I see this happen all. the time. In discussions, in debates, it seems to happen a lot. I just know I'd get annoyed personally, but that's just me.

I typically just explain it right back at them.

 

[1213]

Or an atheist being told i hate god.

Or being a christian and listening atheists explaining your own holy scriptures to you and what it really means.