To my Jewish friends on this forum...

[ChristineM]

Or being a christian and listening atheists explaining your own holy scriptures to you and what it really means.

Most atheists were once Christians or other religion.
And many have actually read at least one version of the bible, unlike many christians

 

[Subduction Zone]

Most atheists were once Christians or other religion.
And many have actually read at least one version of the bible, unlike many christians

Yes, what Christians often have a hard time understanding is that a superior understanding of the Bible often leads to atheism. I had a hard time comprehending that myself when I first heard of it. When I was a young Christian adult was the first time that I heard that seminaries were often "hotbeds of atheism". It turns out that Christians with a genuine interest in God when they went to schools where they went deeper into the morality of Christianity and the history of the Bible would often lose their faith as they learned more and more.

Most of those atheists were unwilling when they lost their faith. If you ever see Bart Ehrman's account you will see that it followed this general pattern. Understanding the Bible leads to atheism. Perhaps that is why the Catholic Church banned personal ownership of a Bible for so long.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, what Christians often have a hard time understanding is that a superior understanding of the Bible often leads to atheism. I had a hard time comprehending that myself when I first heard of it. When I was a young Christian adult was the first time that I heard that seminaries were often "hotbeds of atheism". It turns out that Christians with a genuine interest in God when they went to schools where they went deeper into the morality of Christianity and the history of the Bible would often lose their faith as they learned more and more.

Most of those atheists were unwilling when they lost their faith. If you ever see Bart Ehrman's account you will see that it followed this general pattern. Understanding the Bible leads to atheism. Perhaps that is why the Catholic Church banned personal ownership of a Bible for so long.

Near enough my story. I fled my chuch because of the hypocrisy and verbal abuse fired at me because a could not read. I was still very much Christian even without a church. Soon after i was diagnosed, simple remedial measures prescribed and voila letters came into focus. I taught myself to read, the first complete book i read was a Terry Pratchett, the second was the KJV. All of it, from cover to cover. Not the selected good bits dished out at church but the genocide, murders, rape, theft, slavery etc all in gods name.

That reading began my journey to atheiem.

Ive read 2 other bibles since it's surprising how different the scriptures are. No doubt the reason for so many different sects and cults of Christianity

 

[Colt]

Yes, what Christians often have a hard time understanding is that a superior understanding of the Bible often leads to atheism. I had a hard time comprehending that myself when I first heard of it. When I was a young Christian adult was the first time that I heard that seminaries were often "hotbeds of atheism". It turns out that Christians with a genuine interest in God when they went to schools where they went deeper into the morality of Christianity and the history of the Bible would often lose their faith as they learned more and more.

Most of those atheists were unwilling when they lost their faith. If you ever see Bart Ehrman's account you will see that it followed this general pattern. Understanding the Bible leads to atheism. Perhaps that is why the Catholic Church banned personal ownership of a Bible for so long.

What most Christians understand is that a spiritual understanding of the Bible leads to eternal salvation from ---> self.

 

[Ashoka]

...and we've all heard your interpretation of the Christian Scriptures,. ..which position is worthy of more indignation: Christians on Judaism, or Pantheists on Christianity, ...or any other theistic religion?

Thanks @Kenny for prompting this awareness (hypocrisy) to us on Ashoka's part!

I would trust a Jewish person's interpretation of the scriptures, since they are originally theirs, than a Christian.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What most Christians understand is that a spiritual understanding of the Bible leads to eternal salvation from ---> self.

And a word saladette. What do you even mean by a "spiritual understanding"?

 

[Colt]

Near enough my story. I fled my chuch because of the hypocrisy and verbal abuse fired at me because a could not read. I was still very much Christian even without a church. Soon after i was diagnosed, simple remedial measures prescribed and voila letters came into focus. I taught myself to read, the first complete book i read was a Terry Pratchett, the second was the KJV. All of it, from cover to cover. Not the selected good bits dished out at church but the genocide, murders, rape, theft, slavery etc all in gods name.

That reading began my journey to atheiem.

Ive read 2 other bibles since it's surprising how different the scriptures are. No doubt the reason for so many different sects and cults of Christianity

Thanks for sharing your story. Thats really awesome!

 

[Brian2]

@Brian2 Nope.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

James calls love for our neighbour, the royal law. So that is not lawlessness that is fulfilling the whole of God's word by loving.

 

[Brian2]

I'm sorry but you are simply mistaken. We have the story of Elijah raising a child from the dead -- but this resurrected child was not the messiah (or God).

Basically, Jesus had his chance. He tried. He failed. Time to move on.

You already know that the child in Elijah went on to die again but Jesus did not.
So you give no reason for me being wrong except that you do not believe it.

 

[Brian2]

No, that is not it at all. If it was anything like that we would simply say that is the issue. It isn't, because in Jewish texts for several thousand years Hashem has raised numerous people from the dead. One person is not something special to us.

Besides, it is not like I see any evidence that anyone named "jesus" was proven to be raised from the dead, directly from a "god."

Further, IF historically that is what happened then there would be no reason for any Christian in history to try and convince a Jew to become a Christian. Also, the early Jewish Christians would have survived rather than dying out within 2 generations of their start.

It is like that time I offered several Christians on this forum that I would do a Zoom with them where we take the Hebrew Tanakh w/o translation and they could attempt to prove to me that their ideas are derived from the Hebrew Tanakh. To date no one has taken me up on that offer.

Would you be willing?

The story is that Jesus was raised back to life (approved by God) and was taken up to heaven where He sits at the right hand of God and God puts His enemies under His feet (Psalm 110:1)
Where there's smoke there's fire. If Jesus was not raised then the church would not have begun unless it was started by people who knew Jesus was not the Messiah and did not rise from the dead.
If the generation of Jewish leaders were seriously unrighteous as Jesus claimed and taught that Jesus body was taken by His disciples as claimed then that is a good reason for many or most Jews not to become Christians. Within a couple of generations the gentile Christians would not be obeying the Law as the early Jewish Christians would have done and that would create a greater distance between Christianity and Judaism and the Jews would be seeing it as a gentile religion instead of the New Covenant religion.
I imagine there were also other factors involved in the separation.
If I was a language scholar then I might take you up on the zoom offer but as you say, what's the point of discussing it with someone who can't understand the Hebrew.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Those scriptures belong to whoever embraces them on a deep spiritual and religious level.

As is true of science and philosophy, they belong to no one and are available to all - be is for use or abuse.

 

[idea]

As is true of science and philosophy, they belong to no one and are available to all - be is for use or abuse.

I like the thought that all are "fingers pointing to the moon", symbols. Look to where the finger points, rather than the finger itself and all that

Every grain of sand, every atom, follows and contains the laws. Study anything, any book, any physical object, and its there.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I would say that the Christian translators of the scriptures are learned and know what they are talking about and how to translate accurately.

Only they didn't. Just look at what was done to Leviticus, or the entire process of the King James Version bible.

I imagine the real problem is that the Jews see the Gospel story, the actual story of what happened, as not true.

So which one actually happened?

There are four Canonical Scriptures (which right there is a problem) that have numerous contradictions between themselves. Contradictions that, while small, present a narrative issue with the claim that "This is what happened". As well, elements like the lineage of Jesus that must be explained away with dubious "historical" cultural norms. Did you know in the Gospels Judas has three very different deaths? As well, this discounts other accounts of "what happened", other gospels that were written, because politically they presented a narrative that the Church did not want. So they favored stories written down 50-100 years after Jesus' death by anonymous authors.

 

[pearl]

Surely the simplest reason is that Jews don't believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

Maybe not as there was belief in resurrection, but the resurrected was not the messiah.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I like the thought that all are "fingers pointing to the moon", symbols. Look to where the finger points, rather than the finger itself and all that

Every grain of sand, every atom, follows and contains the laws. Study anything, any book, any physical object, and its there.

This sounds a bit New Agey. What " laws"? If you mean the laws of physics, those are the only ones that I can think of, then your claim is refuted by a "So what?". The laws of physics do not point towards a deity nor do they seem to need one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It strikes me as being more concerned with "winning" arguments than broadening one's understanding and perspective.

How can talking to a theist broaden the understanding of an atheist?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The story is that Jesus was raised back to life (approved by God) and was taken up to heaven where He sits at the right hand of God and God puts His enemies under His feet (Psalm 110:1)

Can you show, based on the Hebrew language alone without translation, how that works on the below?

Where there's smoke there's fire. If Jesus was not raised then the church would not have begun unless it was started by people who knew Jesus was not the Messiah and did not rise from the dead.

Sorry, but I don't find what you wrote convincing. You would have to show me how all of that is supported in a Hebrew Tanakh W/O TRANSLATION.

If the generation of Jewish leaders were seriously unrighteous as Jesus claimed and taught that Jesus body was taken by His disciples as claimed then that is a good reason for many or most Jews not to become Christians. Within a couple of generations the gentile Christians would not be obeying the Law as the early Jewish Christians would have done and that would create a greater distance between Christianity and Judaism and the Jews would be seeing it as a gentile religion instead of the New Covenant religion.

If you don't mind me asking, do you have a Hebrew or Aramaic text from the time period where they explain all of that for themselves?

I imagine there were also other factors involved in the separation.

Yeah. The original Jewish Christians seperated themselves from the Torath Mosheh Jews of that generation. The original Jewish Christians also appear to have beleived that what ever concept of redemption they had was going down in their generation. Thus, they decided not to marry or own property. When their end game didn't happen, they didn't have 3rd generation to continue their movement and a few of them went to the Roman non-Jewish peoples and convinced them to take up some of their concepts while inserting others.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If I was a language scholar then I might take you up on the zoom offer but as you say, what's the point of discussing it with someone who can't understand the Hebrew.

You don't have to be a scholar. I am certain we are both honest adults. I will set up the zoom and I provide the most ancient of Hebrew Tanakh texts (plural). Then you call out whatever passages you know of and I will pull them up so we can both see them, in the zoom, I will explain what it means, directly from the Hebrew, show where I get every single thing I tell you from and then you show me how it supports your concept.

See, it isn't hard at all. I am the one who has do most of the leg work.

So what do you say?

but as you say, what's the point of discussing it with someone who can't understand the Hebrew.

Actually, what I was talking about is if you show up thinking that you know what the Hebrew says when you don't know Hebrew then yes, then it is your thinking that would make it pointless.

If you come in honest that you have no idea what is actually in the Hebrew text and we both are honest about what it says and what it doesn't when I show you visually what it says and what it doesn't then there may be a point.

So, again, you have literally nothing to lose and there would be little to no effort on your part. If you think I as a Jew have misunderstood the Hebrew Tanakh this is your chance to show me how.

So, what do you say?

 

[Hawkins]

Do y'all get annoyed when Christians come in trying to explain your own holy scriptures to you? I see this happen all. the time. In discussions, in debates, it seems to happen a lot. I just know I'd get annoyed personally, but that's just me.

Please google up what "fallacy" is.

"The Jews knows better because they are the Jews" - is a straight forward fallacy. I don't know why you and your many friends have to use it and fall for it in this thread though.

 

[rosends]

Please google up what "fallacy" is.

"The Jews knows better because they are the Jews" - is a straight forward fallacy. I don't know why you and your many friends have to use it and fall for it in this thread though.

which fallacy would you consider that?
I can think of one but I'm not sure it is the same as the one you are thinking of. Actually, I can think of at least one which I can apply to your post as well.