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To the Anti-Religious

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I've even seen on another forum, a place for former Christians and Christians who are stressing out over deconversion. They claim to be open and friendly towards all religions, but yet any mention of any religion, even ones that have a large amount of atheist followers, such as Satanism, are bashed.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
I've even seen on another forum, a place for former Christians and Christians who are stressing out over deconversion. They claim to be open and friendly towards all religions, but yet any mention of any religion, even ones that have a large amount of atheist followers, such as Satanism, are bashed.

Are you surprised?
 

rojse

RF Addict
Religions do not deserve tolerance they do not exhibit in return *cough* homoseuality among abrahamic religions *cough*

There are many religious organisations that are intolerant, certainly, but there are large groups of followers for each organisation that are not intolerant. You can't presume every theist's opinion on this matter.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
There are many religious organisations that are intolerant, certainly, but there are large groups of followers for each organisation that are not intolerant. You can't presume every theist's opinion on this matter.

Of course, i was generalizing as "religions."

Not all people let their bible guide their hatred towards their fellow man based on their sexual preference handed down by their ever so generous God.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There are many religious organisations that are intolerant, certainly, but there are large groups of followers for each organisation that are not intolerant. You can't presume every theist's opinion on this matter.
There are also many human organizations that are not religious, but are still very intolerant. So I see no direct correlation between religion and intolerance. I think human beings are intolerant. Their religion or lack of it seems to be irrelevant to their inclination to tolerate other people's differences.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Dawkin Zealots or Anti-Dawkin Zealots? Dawkin's has some great speeches, books and ideas...

Richard Dawkins on militant atheism | Video on TED.com

What I find odd is when someone says look this a good point, the anti-dawkin zealot launches into ad homs or criticizing dawkins from seemingly whatever website comes up in the top 20 of their google search. Original thought seems to be lacking.
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I should know. I suffered immense psychological damage after I left religion because of this fear of Hell. It's tantamount to child abuse.
No, it isn't, and saying it is only serves to illustrate your irrationality and trivialize the suffering of those who have actually experienced it. Religion can, of course, be used as a tool of child abuse, but so can stoves. I do not presume to say you weren't abused religiously, but if you were, the fault lies with your abusers, not their implements.

As for your "immense psychological damage," may I ask what your diagnoses are? My abuse left me with PTSD, Schizo-Affective Disorder (learned paranoia), and Sleep Terror Disorder, from which I have thankfully recovered.
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
No, it isn't, and saying it is only serves to illustrate your irrationality and trivialize the suffering of those who have actually experienced it. Religion can, of course, be used as a tool of child abuse, but so can stoves. I do not presume to say you weren't abused religiously, but if you were, the fault lies with your abusers, not their implements.

As for your "immense psychological damage," may I ask what your diagnoses are? My abuse left me with PTSD, Schizo-Affective Disorder (learned paranoia), and Sleep Terror Disorder, from which I have thankfully recovered.

I think your illustration is off and I think by the post it is characterizing an involvement of religion as one which embodies a group of people fit to threaten children with outlandish tales of hell. A stove does not poison the minds of children with horror stories of devils and demons. And to be clear... Neither do all religions. The one described: Did.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Religions do not deserve tolerance they do not exhibit in return *cough* homoseuality among abrahamic religions *cough*
"Regardless of it is is a moderate or extremist".
I've met many a moderate theist from the Abrahamic religions who don't have a problem with homosexuality. I've some who do, but why on earth should you give those who don't go around being nasty to homosexuals a hard time because they have faith? Hell, I've met people who are religious who are gay. Talk about being nasty from both sides!

Intolerance is intolerance, and in this case the poster has shown intolerance to theists. Considering about 85% or so of the planet is considered theist, then this person has some real issues.

There are also many human organizations that are not religious, but are still very intolerant. So I see no direct correlation between religion and intolerance. I think human beings are intolerant. Their religion or lack of it seems to be irrelevant to their inclination to tolerate other people's differences.
Agreed. :)
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Why would you not believe that?

5+7=12 is a constant. There is no way it can be anything other than what it is.

I agree, but I don't have any evidence that this is a necessarily true proposition. I see that it's necessary, but I don't have any evidence that it is. Worse, I'm not sure how one might make an evidentiary case for its necessary truth. And if that's so, our a priori beliefs can be warranted without evidence.
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
I agree, but I don't have any evidence that this is a necessarily true proposition. I see that it's necessary, but I don't have any evidence that it is. Worse, I'm not sure how one might make an evidentiary case for its necessary truth. And if that's so, our a priori beliefs can be warranted without evidence.

More male bovine excrement.:(

And DWOAD. If something is consistently and universally true then whether it is "necessarily" true is irrelevant. When you come up with a situation when arithmetic DOESN'T work, come back to us. We will VERY interested in your example.

But your present distinction is just mental game playing. And this observer suspects it is known to be such and engaged in with quite deliberate purpose.:sad4:
 

PureX

Veteran Member
When you come up with a situation when arithmetic DOESN'T work, come back to us. We will VERY interested in your example.
Actually, the abstract perfection of mathematics NEVER works in actuality, except relatively. The principal of equality, for example doesn't actually exist. No two anythings are exactly the same, or they would actually BE THE SAME thing. Two actual things can only be considered equal in relative terms. They are equal only relative to the degree to which we ignore the ways they are not equal.

So, although as an abstract concept, two plus two equals four, perfectly and absolutely, in actual reality, it NEVER CAN.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
All of these examples suffer the same defect -fatal defect.

But to take just the last one you believe the computer is front not SIMPLY because you see it. You also have decades of experience that has confirmed almost every time that what you see IS REALLY THERE.

Not according to David Hume or Bishop Berkeley.

This has been true since were in your crib reaching for a toy. You have l o-o-o-ng ago learned to accept that what you see IS there. And are most surprised if this turns out NOT to be the case.

I don't think I have ever "learned" that there is an external world. It's just something I've always assumed. As Hume (and others) have pointed out, it's notoriously impossible to prove that there is an external world of objects.


In all of your other examples the same argument applies. You can verify by investigation - and indeed at various times in your past you HAVE verified by investigation - that your perception or belief is accurate. You no longer go thru that process because you don't need to.

Reminder: I am simply making the distinction between beliefs formed in the basic way (i.e., they are not dependent on evidence or arguments) and beliefs formed by way of evidence (or beliefs formed on the basis of those formed in the basic way). My claim is that some basic beliefs count as warranted. You seem to be saying that a belief is warranted only if it is (perhaps only in principle) verifiable.

You have (quite rightly) focussed on perceptual beliefs because those sorts of beliefs are most amenable to your argument. Sadly, your argument isn't nearly as strong as you think it is. First, I haven't learned by experience that my perceptual faculties are reliable. I have simply always assumed it. As it happens, I've never had their reliability questioned, let alone had to investigate whether they are. Yet I still think that the vast majority of my perceptual beliefs have warrant.

I acknowledge that, as we develop from embryo to adult, our cognitive faculties grow and develop. There's a sense in which that's "learning", but it certainly isn't anything like "investigation" or "verification." Babies learning to perceive depth, or learning to associate sounds with things in the world so that they turn their heads in response to their parents' voices are not processes of verification or investigation. The baby isn't learning to trust her perceptual and cognitive apparatus. This is just their normal development. (Besides, do babies even have beliefs?)

So your whole argument about verification seems predicated on a misunderstanding of what counts as verification and investigation. It also confuses the development of faculties with learning to trust them.


Putting those confusions aside, I still don't need to verify that there's a computer in front of me in order to know that there is. My perceptual belief is warranted whether anyone verifies it or not.

But it's also possible for me to have a warranted perceptual belief that is not verifiable. I have incredibly good hearing, much better than any other human. I can hear sounds in ranges that not even dogs can hear. I hear a high-pitched sound beyond your range, and thus form the belief that I hear that sound. It seems to me that my perceptual belief is warranted even without verification. You can't verify my belief by any means whatsoever. Yet it's warranted for me (whether it is for you is debatable).

Authority says something is so you accept absent anything to the contrary. But you could if so inclined verify every statement or observation made. So could any OTHER observer so inclined.

Not necessarily. If a mathematician tells me that mathematics is incomplete, there's no way I can verify it. I simply don't have the ability to follow complex mathematical proofs. Abstract logic frequently gets the best of me, especially when it goes beyond basic sentential logic (don't get me started on modal logic or relevance logic -- ugh). So it's not even possible for me to verify this truth (or any other higher mathematical proof). Yet it seems to me that my belief in the incompleteness of mathematics is entirely warranted, coming as it does from an authority in the field. My belief remains warranted unless I'm presented with other recognized experts who disagree. Until then, my belief has warrant. If it's true, it's also knowledge.

You're right to say that someone else might be able to verify the proposition. But then, for me, that just counts as another testimony. My belief is still based on testimony, which means that I've formed it in the basic way, without evidence.


But your invisible fairy god father . . . now there's a problem.:(

It's a problem only if verification by empirical means is necessary for knowledge claims. It's not, so it's not.

I noticed that you steered clear of focussing on the other forms of basic belief that I mentioned. I can only assume that they are less congenial to your verification argument. Be that as it may, my claim is rather modest. I'm only saying (a) we form beliefs in the basic way; and (b) at least some of those beliefs are warranted sufficiently for knowledge. The next (admittedly more controversial) step in my argument will be to argue (c) belief in God can be arrived at in the basic way, and (d) such beliefs can be warranted. If true, such beliefs count as knowledge.
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
More male bovine excrement.:(

And DWOAD. If something is consistently and universally true then whether it is "necessarily" true is irrelevant. When you come up with a situation when arithmetic DOESN'T work, come back to us. We will VERY interested in your example.

But your present distinction is just mental game playing. And this observer suspects it is known to be such and engaged in with quite deliberate purpose.:sad4:

If something is "consistently and universally" true, that's just about tantamount to saying it's "necessarily" true. The point is that I can just see that 5 + 7 = 12 is not just true but necessarily true. I can see it couldn't be otherwise. But I have no evidence of its necessity. Indeed, it's not possible to marshal evidence for a propositions' necessity. Yet it would be churlish to insist that I don't know that 5 +7 = 12 is necessarily true.

Is all this just a mental game? Not at all. I've presented several ways in which we can have knowledge without evidence. That's not a game. It's the sober truth.
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Actually, the abstract perfection of mathematics NEVER works in actuality, except relatively. The principal of equality, for example doesn't actually exist. No two anythings are exactly the same, or they would actually BE THE SAME thing. Two actual things can only be considered equal in relative terms. They are equal only relative to the degree to which we ignore the ways they are not equal.

So, although as an abstract concept, two plus two equals four, perfectly and absolutely, in actual reality, it NEVER CAN.

I think that's a misunderstanding. When a mathematican says 2 +2 = 4, she means that 2 + 2 is exactly the same thing as 4. The two expressions are identical values.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
There's also the fact that Christianity developed in one culture while during that same time there were no Jesus sightings.

I'm not sure what you mean. Christianity started because of Jesus sightings after his death. If it weren't for the sightings, there wouldn't have been a Christianity.

In other words, different religious truths among different cultures. You are positing that the spiritual blindness is possibly ethnically related.

Not at all. Spiritual blindness (if we keep to the metaphor) implies damage or dysfunction in one's cognitive faculties that deal with truths about God. There's no need to assume that some ethnicities are more highly damaged than others. It may be part of the human condition. Perhaps we're all born with a faculty for perceiving God but by way of some genetically inherited trait, that faculty doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
Intolerance is intolerance, and in this case the poster has shown intolerance to theists. Considering about 85% or so of the planet is considered theist, then this person has some real issues.

There was a time when 99% or so of the planet thought the earth was flat, too.....

Cheers
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think that's a misunderstanding. When a mathematican says 2 +2 = 4, she means that 2 + 2 is exactly the same thing as 4. The two expressions are identical values.
But this would be a useless expression relative to actuality, as no two anythings are exactly the same as two anything else's. If they were exactly the same things, they would BE the same things, and 2 would =2, but not 4. Reality looks more like this: "A" & "B" + "C" & "D" = "A, B, C, & D"
 

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
Not at all. Spiritual blindness (if we keep to the metaphor) implies damage or dysfunction in one's cognitive faculties that deal with truths about God. There's no need to assume that some ethnicities are more highly damaged than others. It may be part of the human condition. Perhaps we're all born with a faculty for perceiving God but by way of some genetically inherited trait, that faculty doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

Perhaps this genetically inherited trait, in actuality, may cause a tendency to develop mental disorders such as schizophrenia, and god-belief is simply a milder case. This makes far more sense from an evolutionary perspective. Although, it makes even more sense that no such gene exists, and god-belief is the result of cultural conditioning.
 

elisheba

Member
To get back to the point .... why should people be tolerant of what is not beneficial, unhealthy, and continually placing innocent people at risk ?
 
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