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To the Anti-Religious

Smoke

Done here.
"Rather, it rebuts those who claim that, whether Christianity is true or not, it is irrational to believe it."

I am not aware of any position taken here (or anywhere else) that says Christianity is true and believing it is irrational.

That is absurd on its face. What IS irrational is accepting christianity AS true.
I think Dunemeister is referring to me, although that's not exactly what I said. I said that a belief with no basis in evidence or reason is an irrational belief even if it happens to be true. Suppose I just have a feeling that the Pope is having an affair with Angela Merkel. I have no evidence of this or even any evidence that the two have ever spent any time alone together. I believe myself to be psychic, and I say my psychic powers have revealed the affair to me. Much later, it turns out that the Pope actually was having an affair with Angela Merkel. My belief turned out to be true, but it was nevertheless an irrational belief, because it had no basis in evidence or reason.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
I think Dunemeister is referring to me, although that's not exactly what I said. I said that a belief with no basis in evidence or reason is an irrational belief even if it happens to be true. Suppose I just have a feeling that the Pope is having an affair with Angela Merkel. I have no evidence of this or even any evidence that the two have ever spent any time alone together. I believe myself to be psychic, and I say my psychic powers have revealed the affair to me. Much later, it turns out that the Pope actually was having an affair with Angela Merkel. My belief turned out to be true, but it was nevertheless an irrational belief, because it had no basis in evidence or reason.

I believe I offered something similar to this as well. If one has the evidence to demonstrate something is true, then belief in it cannot be irrational. If one does not have any evidence to demonstrate something is true, then belief in it cannot be rational.

Dunemeister counters that belief in Christianity is basic and therefore no evidence is required to believe it. Admittedly, I still am not sure why Chrisianity is supposedly basic.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Instead, it is actually question begging because it actually amounts to the objection that Christianity is untrue (in the first instance, the point at issue).
No, it doesn't. It says that your imaginary instigation of the Holy Spirit is not a rational reason for believing it is true. In fact, I can go further, and say that even if Christianity turned out to be true, it would not prove the existence of your imaginary instigation of the Holy Spirit.

I do believe that Christianity is untrue. But that's not the point. What I say about the irrationality of your argument stands even if Christianity turns out to be true.

I believe I carry a magical, invisible frog in my pocket. It sleeps on my pillow and tells me many things. For instance, it tells me that the ghost of Emily Dickinson watches over me day and night. I have no evidence and no explicable reason for believing in the magical, invisible frog; it's something I claim to be aware of in an unconventional manner. I maintain that my belief is rational. Is it? No.

If I really do have a magical, invisible frog, does that prove that Emily Dickinson watches over me? No.

If Emily Dickinson really watches over me, does that prove I have a magical, invisible frog? No.

Even if I really have a magical, invisible frog and Emily Dickinson really watches over me, does that confer rationality on my unevidenced and illogical belief? No.

I do reject the truth claims of Christianity, but what I'm saying here is that your argument for the rationality of belief fails regardless of the truth of Christianity. It is a fundamentally flawed argument either way.
 

Smoke

Done here.
No, the conclusion to draw is that my argument does not entail generalizability. The truth of Christianity itself (or voodoo) is not at issue.
Fine; you can change it to this:

If I am right, I am right.
If voodoo adherents are wrong, they are wrong.
Therefore, it is rational to believe that I am right and they are wrong.


The argument fails either way.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Dunemeister counters that belief in Christianity is basic and therefore no evidence is required to believe it. Admittedly, I still am not sure why Chrisianity is supposedly basic.
Dunemeister manages to think that a belief in Christianity is basic by defining a basic belief as one that need not be either self-evident or necessarily true. Dunemeister is in effect saying that a belief can be basic by virtue of being true, and that in the absence of proof to the contrary, such a belief is rational. I think the flaws in that reasoning are obvious to you.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
Dunemeister manages to think that a belief in Christianity is basic by defining a basic belief as one that need not be either self-evident or necessarily true. Dunemeister is in effect saying that a belief can be basic by virtue of being true, and that in the absence of proof to the contrary, such a belief is rational. I think the flaws in that reasoning are obvious to you.

Of course, I'm going by his definition of basic. But otherwise, yes, there are flaws in that reasoning.
 

nonbeliever_92

Well-Known Member
I think Dunemeister is referring to me, although that's not exactly what I said. I said that a belief with no basis in evidence or reason is an irrational belief even if it happens to be true. Suppose I just have a feeling that the Pope is having an affair with Angela Merkel. I have no evidence of this or even any evidence that the two have ever spent any time alone together. I believe myself to be psychic, and I say my psychic powers have revealed the affair to me. Much later, it turns out that the Pope actually was having an affair with Angela Merkel. My belief turned out to be true, but it was nevertheless an irrational belief, because it had no basis in evidence or reason.


This is especially said for those who have no good reason to not believe in god, yet do. Same goes for those who don't have good reason for believing in god, yet do. For these are often the worst kind of people to debate with.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I believe I offered something similar to this as well. If one has the evidence to demonstrate something is true, then belief in it cannot be irrational. If one does not have any evidence to demonstrate something is true, then belief in it cannot be rational.

Dunemeister counters that belief in Christianity is basic and therefore no evidence is required to believe it. Admittedly, I still am not sure why Chrisianity is supposedly basic.

That's where IIHS comes in. Via IIHS, a person would come to believe the truths of the gospel directly, much like a person comes to believe "there's a computer in front of me right now" directly from her perception of the computer. There is no argument involved. Rather, the operation of the cognitive faculty in question simply gives rise to the belief; the perceptual belief is warranted if the cognitive faculty involved (sensory organs and other cognitive apparatus) is functioning properly and is not subject to interference from an uncongenial cognitive environment (illusion, hallucination, whatever). The operation of the IIHS would be similar. If it were operating properly in a congenial cognitive environment, the beliefs it produces would be warranted (rational).
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Dunemeister manages to think that a belief in Christianity is basic by defining a basic belief as one that need not be either self-evident or necessarily true. Dunemeister is in effect saying that a belief can be basic by virtue of being true, and that in the absence of proof to the contrary, such a belief is rational. I think the flaws in that reasoning are obvious to you.

No, DM is saying that a belief is basic if it receives warrant (that quantity enough of which elevates a true belief to knowledge) apart from argument. The vast majority of our beliefs have this character. Once again, consider a perceptual belief like "there is a computer there." That belief does not receive any warrant whatsoever by any argument. Rather, the belief receives warrant (and is therefore rational) by virtue of its being produced in a congenial cognitive environment by cognitive faculties functioning properly according to a design plan successfully aimed at truth.

I have further argued that, according to Christianity, belief in the gospel and other major Christian themes arise as a result of the operation of the sensus divinitatus (sense of the divine) and the holy spirit (what I have referred to as the internal instigation of the holy spirit, or IIHS). This picture is certainly possible (in the broadly logical sense). If Christianity were true, it would receive warrant by IIHS or something very close to it.

IIHS, according to the theory, would be a cognitive process. Its function would be, together with revelation (the bible) and/or preaching, to form beliefs about God and what Jonathan Edwards calls "the great things of the gospel." It would be a rational process inasmuch as it was a reliable belief-producing process; and since it would involve the activity of God himself, that would be presumed.

And please recall that I have also admitted that even if a belief is basic, it may still be defeasible. I see a sheep in that field about a hundred yards away. I form the belief "there's a sheep in that field" in the basic way. However, you own the field and tell me that there are no sheep in it. Nor are there any sheep in any fields for hundreds of miles. But there is a dog in that field that looks like a sheep. My first basic belief thus loses its warrant. I form a new belief (also in the basic way) based on your testimony: "there is a dog in that field."

The same would apply to beliefs formed by way of IIHS. By way of IIHS I believe that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. This belief is basic, believed not on the basis of evidence but directly on the basis of the operation of the holy spirit. Subsequently, I come to believe that the whole Christian tradition, including the New Testament documents and their story about Jesus and IIHS, is based on a cleverly concealed (but now revealed) plot. It turns out the whole thing was a complete fabrication. (Perhaps we have uncovered authentic letters written by the apostles where they detail in all seriousness how the plot is to proceed and so forth.) If I believed the stuff about the plot, that would undermine my belief based on IIHS. It would be irrational for me to hold my original belief in the face of such damning information.

Of course, it's not so easy as that. The believer would have to be convinced of the truth of the plot. But if he were so convinced, the belief in the plot would indeed provide a defeater for his Christian belief, and he would no longer be able to rationally hold it (even if, after all, Christianity was in fact true).

So if our question is, "Is it rational to believe in Christianity," the answer must be "That depends." On what? Clearly, on whether it's true. If Christianity (including the story about IIHS) is true, it's rational to believe it, in the absence of defeaters, via IIHS. If it's false, it's probably not rational to believe it because the only way to rationally believe it would be through the use of publicly available information. IIHS would not be available, because since Christianity is false, so is IIHS. Thus one would have to appeal to various arguments (historical, cosmological, teleological, moral, ontological, whatever) to provide evidence for Christianity. Sadly, these arguments, even at their best, and when their collective weight is brought to bear, can't get us much past agnosticism. The objective probability that Christianity is true on these arguments, even if we are enormously generous, is about .5. That's hardly sufficient to make it rational to believe Christianity. The coin may come up heads or tails; it isn't rational for me to BELIEVE it will come up heads.

So the question of Christianity's rationality hinges on the question of its truth. The believer takes herself to have access to the truth of the gospel via IIHS. Clearly, the skeptic demurs. However, the skeptic must admit that it's broadly logically possibe that Christianity is true. So if the skeptic wants to say that the believer is irrational, she must show that Christianity is in fact false.

Skeptics have taken several lines in this respect. Freud, for example, said that Christian belief arises as the result of a cognitive faculty all right, wish fulfillment. But that faculty is not aimed at truth. Its function is to enable survival in the face of a cold, heartless world. Of course, he doesn't argue for this position, he merely assumes it. But if someone could pose a convincing argumen that (a) Christian belief arises by way of wish fulfillment, and (b) wish fulfillment is not aimed at getting true beliefs about God, we'd have ourselves a nifty little defeater for Christianity. So far as I am aware, no argument for this is available in the literature (although many people claim it).

So as you can see, the argument is not as cute (and niftily dismissed) as it is being represented.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
That's where IIHS comes in. Via IIHS, a person would come to believe the truths of the gospel directly, much like a person comes to believe "there's a computer in front of me right now" directly from her perception of the computer. There is no argument involved. Rather, the operation of the cognitive faculty in question simply gives rise to the belief; the perceptual belief is warranted if the cognitive faculty involved (sensory organs and other cognitive apparatus) is functioning properly and is not subject to interference from an uncongenial cognitive environment (illusion, hallucination, whatever). The operation of the IIHS would be similar. If it were operating properly in a congenial cognitive environment, the beliefs it produces would be warranted (rational).

I disagree. There is evidence for a computer being in front of you, so that's an evidential belief. There is no evidence for the Gospels being true.

I disagree also with the belief being rational if cognitive faculties were functioning properly and it developed in a congenial cognitive environment because throughout history, there are many examples of this not being true. I agree that this is a prerequisite for a rational belief, but I just think evidence is the most important prerequisite.

Flat-Earth, for example. People looked out their windows. Earth looked flat. Therefore, the Earth is flat. The belief arose from cognitive mechanisms functioning properly and in a congenial cognitive environment (No Round-Earthers for awhile). To anyone who doesn't know any better, the Earth appears flat from the surface.

To these people, that belief was rational as it was readily apparent. To Round-Earthers, it was irrational, because their model of a Round Earth predicted and explained a lot more than the flat one. They had evidence for their beliefs - a lot more evidence and now we know the Earth is a sphere.

In this light, I regard evidence as the deciding factor for a claim.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Fine; you can change it to this:

If I am right, I am right.
If voodoo adherents are wrong, they are wrong.
Therefore, it is rational to believe that I am right and they are wrong.

The argument fails either way.

That's not the argument, Smoke. Your oversimplification of it doesn't help matters.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I said that a belief with no basis in evidence or reason is an irrational belief even if it happens to be true. Suppose I just have a feeling that the Pope is having an affair with Angela Merkel. I have no evidence of this or even any evidence that the two have ever spent any time alone together. I believe myself to be psychic, and I say my psychic powers have revealed the affair to me. Much later, it turns out that the Pope actually was having an affair with Angela Merkel. My belief turned out to be true, but it was nevertheless an irrational belief, because it had no basis in evidence or reason.

Unless psychic powers are real. Now, I'm not saying they are, although I don't dismiss the possibility out of hand. But if they are, they are quite rational. The psychic method may be unusual; perhaps only a few of us have it. Nevertheless, it's not irrational just because of that. If you actually do have such cognitive equipment, the beliefs they produce are rational. And that would be so even if you are the only one in the world who has it.

In a way, memory is analogous to psychic powers in that only the believer has access to it. I believe I was hiking in the mountains yesterday. I told no one about it and there is no evidence whatsoever of my going there. The only evidence I have for the trip is that I remember doing it. Surely my belief that I was in the mountains yesterday is rational. And it would be rational even if there were plenty of evidence that I was in town.
 

Vile Atheist

Loud and Obnoxious
But if they are, they are quite rational.

If we know they are real, we have evidence for psychic powers being real. And thus, to extend that, we know that the psychic powers would constitute as evidence for the belief.

If we don't know psychic powers are real, we don't have evidence for psychic powers being real or not. They might be, they might not be. If they are real and we don't know they are real, then we cannot accept that as valid evidence. If it isn't real and we don't know it isn't real, then we cannot accept that as valid evidence. Either way, we cannot accept psychic powers as valid evidence until we know that they are indeed real - and thus have evidence for the phenomenon.

Once evidence is produced for that phenomenon, then we know that belief in it is rational.
 

Smoke

Done here.
So the question of Christianity's rationality hinges on the question of its truth. The believer takes herself to have access to the truth of the gospel via IIHS. Clearly, the skeptic demurs. However, the skeptic must admit that it's broadly logically possibe that Christianity is true. So if the skeptic wants to say that the believer is irrational, she must show that Christianity is in fact false.
On the contrary. The believer makes the claim and has the burden of proof. There is no rational reason whatsoever for believing in the imaginary instigation of the Holy Spirit, and while you are not the first Christian to do so, I believe it is shamefully dishonest to define a belief as "basic" because it receives warrant from any source, no matter how subjective or suspect that source is.

That's not the argument, Smoke. Your oversimplification of it doesn't help matters.
It really is the gist of your argument. And I can't help noticing that you have avoided answering my point about your arguing in circles.
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
I don't think this is entirely fair. Whether or not Dunemeister's argument is valid, it's quite evident he sincerely believes it. That warrants a counter-argument, at the very least, and optimally your own argument to replace it.

Regardless, he's at least being respectful. And his argument - regardless of its validity - is admittedly more sophisticated than the other theistic arguments proposed by most theists on these forums. I think that deserves a more respectful response than is.


You are entitled to so think. I don't.

All this philosophical verbiage has no real weight. It simply attempts to make respectful and weighty medieval superstition ignorance and obscurantism.

His computer example is flawed at the very beginning. (And I think he very well KNOWS it.) He most certainly DOES go thru a reasoning process to determine the computer is there. But that process is so familiar and so often repeated and so second nature that he can and does ignore it. Just as we all do. BUT it is a reasoning process and he learned it as an infant. AND he conveniently forgets that the computer's existence - should he doubt it - can be quickly verified by a number of objective tests that work independent of his understanding of them.


No such thing can be said for his myth. Which is why he creates his HS thingy. It is to provide an independent verification of what exists NOWHERE but in his head. (And btw, even AFTER being verified - as he defines it - STILL exists nowhere but in his head.) It just gives him justification for what he has DECIDED he will believe.

It is the same nonsense with his breakfast example. And his hiking example. There is no there there. It is just smoke and mirrors and verbiage with no "beef."

If this Christianity stuff COULD be verified he wouldn't NEED any magical friend to tell him it was true. That fact ALONE absent ANYTHING else is enough to defeat the whole tale.

And he very well KNOWS that to.

Seriously, think for a minute. This spitus divantas or whatever Latin is it is - his divine sense - the extra sense he possess and the rest of us don't -just what IS that? Can he share it? No, apparently not. Can it be verified in ANY way? No, apparently not. Can it accurately predict anything? No, apparently not. Can any feature of it any at all - be seen or tested or verified in any way INDEPENDENT of the person claiming it?

Now how do we normally describe such a "sense" and the "facts" it attempts to convey?
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
If we know they are real, we have evidence for psychic powers being real. And thus, to extend that, we know that the psychic powers would constitute as evidence for the belief.

If we don't know psychic powers are real, we don't have evidence for psychic powers being real or not. They might be, they might not be. If they are real and we don't know they are real, then we cannot accept that as valid evidence. If it isn't real and we don't know it isn't real, then we cannot accept that as valid evidence. Either way, we cannot accept psychic powers as valid evidence until we know that they are indeed real - and thus have evidence for the phenomenon.

Once evidence is produced for that phenomenon, then we know that belief in it is rational.

Really, CM I know you want to be SO polite and SO respectful but really. . . .

You are making an argument that was learned and accepted in high school. It is SO obvious and SO "basic" that it should not even be necessary to make it. You are proclaiming the obvious.

Now WHY would you have to DO that?:confused:

Think about that for a minute. What kind of discussion with what kind of intellect REQUIRES you to state the obvious?;)
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
That's not the argument, Smoke. Your oversimplification of it doesn't help matters.

Yeah, you are right. That is NOT your argument.

Your argument is: "I can produce pages and pages of verbiage in support of my beliefs while all you guys got are a few postulates that you are too narrow minded to disregard."

On another thread you made EXACTLY the same argument but in reverse. You don't know anything about ToE, don't plan to learn anything about it, don't care really if has any value cause whatever the truth of the matter - GodDidIt.

Which argument you use depends entirely on your self perceived level of knowledge. Since you know nothing about science (except that you WISH to know nothing) over there is it just GodDidIt.
Here where you imagine you have deep and profound philosophical knowledge - here it is page after page of verbiage.

But I at least do notice something quite telling. There are NO facts.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Yeah, you are right. That is NOT your argument.

Your argument is: "I can produce pages and pages of verbiage in support of my beliefs while all you guys got are a few postulates that you are too narrow minded to disregard."

On another thread you made EXACTLY the same argument but in reverse. You don't know anything about ToE, don't plan to learn anything about it, don't care really if has any value cause whatever the truth of the matter - GodDidIt.

Which argument you use depends entirely on your self perceived level of knowledge. Since you know nothing about science (except that you WISH to know nothing) over there is it just GodDidIt.
Here where you imagine you have deep and profound philosophical knowledge - here it is page after page of verbiage.

But I at least do notice something quite telling. There are NO facts.

Yaddayaddayadda.....
 
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