To the Anti-Religious

[themadhair]

So you don't know that God doesn't exist, yet your adamant that the reasoning/evidence you've ever been presented with for God is BS.

Pretty much.

 

[MSizer]

Pretty much.

I second that.

 

[rageoftyrael]

see, we don't have to know whether or not there is a god, we merely have to know whether or not the defense used for god is bs. That is why many atheists don't believe, not because they are certain that there is no god, but because there is no evidence, nor any real logic, for a god.

 

[Vile Atheist]

So you don't know that God doesn't exist, yet your adamant that everyone else's God is BS.

Well, yeah. Because they haven't presented evidence for it.

 

[Lums]

Organized religion has its pros and cons. It's great for individuals who are in need of a strong community for support. But on a larger scale most if not all major religions are simply big business at this point. Religion is also right up there with race as another excuse for people hate each other

As far as spirituality is concerned religion is a useless weight, it's much more difficult to grow beyond a certain point when you are being held down by rules and opinions that you believe are absolute truth. That's why spiritual growth is an internal journey.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

I second that.

Third!

 

[nonbeliever_92]

see, we don't have to know whether or not there is a god, we merely have to know whether or not the defense used for god is bs. That is why many atheists don't believe, not because they are certain that there is no god, but because there is no evidence, nor any real logic, for a god.

and I second that

 

[Commoner]

Third!

Forth!

 

[dogsgod]

.



5th



.

 

[darkendless]

Of course. But that's still MY problem. I need to figure out why I can't either speak (write) more clearly, or walk away.

I don't think you'd be normal if everyone understood everything you said.

I feel the same way. But we'll both be better men when we CAN understand those folks. And that won't happen if all we focus on is how bizarrely wrong we think they are.

I don't think i can ever do that. I have deep concerns which are not easily forgotten, which would allow me to better understand these people. I don't think i'll ever understand why people are afraid to leave organisations that promote fear. Maybe age will help my understanding of such matters.

Science is at it's best when it's being presented to us by an artist or a priest. That's because science by itself is soulless. It needs a shaman to give it magic, again.
I agree. The bible has some great stories, and they teach good and useful lessons. But I've read them and heard them many times, now. And like anything we use all the time, it kind of goes flat after a while. So I look for that divine spirit elsewhere.
Keep in mind, though, that what we think is the truth, may well not be. That's why I say that honesty is the best we can do. And it's why we shouldn't imagine that science is some sort of cure for our bias and ignorance. It's not.

I am art-retarded. I can look at a painting and never guess the meaning until i'm told. In a way i prefer science the way it is because i can understand it and theres no room for interpretation, it is what it is (well in my experience). When i talk science its completely different to the common evolution and biology often spoken about on these forums.

My problem with the bible is i can never decide what the lesson is (being a piscies doesn't help). I think its my education but i don't like having to choose between whats right, and whats more right. Reading the same thing and drawing different meanings to me over-complicates the situation. Once again i think time and effort will help me better understanding these stories.

 

[Troublemane]

Its interesting to note that humans have no difficulty finding excuses to burn/kill/torture and in many other ways de-humanize other humans, based on the most flimsy criteria. Such as: what they profess to believe, or what one BELIEVES another person BELIEVES,....

I mean, hey, just because a person is a member of a church, can you say they really even believe what you think they believe? Or because they are a member of a group of any kind, can you really say with 100% certainy how they will behave in a given circumstance? Or is all this labelling just an excuse not to treat them as a fellow human being, or as a means to dismiss anything they might say/think/feel as having a shred of validity out of hand?

 

[PureX]

My problem with the bible is i can never decide what the lesson is (being a piscies doesn't help). I think its my education but i don't like having to choose between whats right, and whats more right. Reading the same thing and drawing different meanings to me over-complicates the situation. Once again i think time and effort will help me better understanding these stories.

One of the things I've always liked about the bible, particularly Jesus' story, is that I could see myself in most of the characters, and as each character, there are human truths to discover. I could imagine myself as Judas, and I can understand why he did what he did, and how he justified it in his own mind, and I can see how we humans can be motivated by jealousy or resentment, yet still convince ourselves that we're motivated by the highest ideals, as we do really stupid things. Or I can see myself as Pilot, intellectualizing away my responsibility for knowingly condemning an innocent man to death. Or I can see myself as the high priests, telling myself that I'm really having Jesus murdered for the good of all, and for the sake of God and religion. The story is full of these all too human characters, and their all too human predicaments, and crimes, and excuses.

Something I noticed years ago when I was debating with the fundamentalists, and that I still notice a lot today, is that modern human beings seem to be divided into two kinds of people: those who understand and accept the relativism of the human condition, and those who really don't like it at all, and who are fighting against it at every turn. The single most common thread among the fundamentalists, I think, is their absolute hatred for relativism. They are extreme "black and white" kind of folks, and they see the world around them becoming more and more relative every day. And it scares the crap out of them.

And I feel for them. I really do. I know what it's like to have lived my life believing that certain things are absolutely true, and that they always were and always will be true, and then have that certainty turned completely on it's head. It's a horrible and very scary feeling. And there are lots of people like that living among us. They aren't all religious fundamentalists, but they are all holding onto something that they believe is absolutely true, and they are afraid of suddenly finding out that it's not so true as they thought.

But I'm an artist. I like stories, and mythic images, and ideas that transcend reality. I like science when it's at it's most unbelievable. And I like the idea of God BECAUSE it's unbelievable. I like flawed people, BECAUSE of their flaws. I like irrationality. It has a unique value of it's own. Life would be so boring and pointless if everything made sense.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"I like science when it's at it's most unbelievable. And I like the idea of God BECAUSE it's unbelievable. I like flawed people, BECAUSE of their flaws. I like irrationality. It has a unique value of it's own. Life would be so boring and pointless if everything made sense."

Well that explains a lot.

 

[Vile Atheist]

"I like science when it's at it's most unbelievable. And I like the idea of God BECAUSE it's unbelievable. I like flawed people, BECAUSE of their flaws. I like irrationality. It has a unique value of it's own. Life would be so boring and pointless if everything made sense."

Well that explains a lot.

I think he meant that in an artsy-fartsy type of way. In a sense, I agree - up to a point. Flaws contribute to uniqueness. Uniqueness makes the world interesting. But we cannot have flaws and irrationality in our only methodology of acquiring knowledge. That would retard human progress, if not stop it dead in its tracks.

I find beauty in science as well. I'm a chemist. My first awe-struck science moment was in my Grade 10 chemistry class. My chemistry teacher was showing us the different factors that affect the rate of a reaction: concentration, surface area, addition of a catalyst, temperature, etc.

He took a mound of lycopodium powder and tried to light it directly. Didn't really work. He then set up a Bunsen burner, took a handful of powder and threw it through the flame and shouted "I AM A WIZARD" as this fireball jetted out towards the amazed classroom. I was in awe over something so simple.

When I think of atomic theory, I try to picture everything in a different way. Instead of seeing a solid wall, I try to picture the countless nuclei and electrons spinning around them. When I see acid corrosion, I'm always in awe as to how acids can break down other substances.

I'm in awe with combustion reactions. How you can increase the sensitivity of explosives by adding aluminum powder. Or how you can make high explosives like acetone peroxide that are very sensitive to shock and friction. I am in awe when I witness electrochemistry.

And I think I'm most awe-struck when I see the immense complexity of biochemistry. But what makes it all the more beautiful is that we can understand how these concepts work. We can manipulate them. We can use them to suit our own purposes.

Art is pretty to look at. Music is pleasant to the ears. It can be a great way to convey your deepest emotions or to depict a significant event. It's meant to be enjoyed. But it doesn't have much of a purpose, other than entertainment. But I - and others like me - find beauty, utility, and purpose in science. That's what makes it a worthy pursuit. It contributes to the knowledge of mankind and takes it far beyond what we can dream of.

Life is not boring and pointless if everything makes sense. It's the opposite.

 

[Commoner]

But I'm an artist. I like stories, and mythic images, and ideas that transcend reality. I like science when it's at it's most unbelievable. And I like the idea of God BECAUSE it's unbelievable. I like flawed people, BECAUSE of their flaws. I like irrationality. It has a unique value of it's own. Life would be so boring and pointless if everything made sense.

If you think a god exists, why do you keep comparing it with stories and mythology?

Life is chaotic enough as it is (for most of us), no need to add more drama to it. Being "bored" is a pretty silly reason for believing in god. You can enjoy the stories and the mythology and whacky ideas even though you realize they are nothing more than figments of your imagnation.

If you start acting as if these things acutally existed and find it difficult to distinguish reality from fiction - that's where the problems start. Then the "using condoms is a sin" and "let's not take our kid to the doctor, god can heal him/her" stupidity is just one step away.

 

[PureX]

If you think a god exists, why do you keep comparing it with stories and mythology?

Because I don't know if God is actual, or if God is actual, what is God's nature.

You can enjoy the stories and the mythology and whacky ideas even though you realize they are nothing more than figments of your imagnation.

But I don't know that they are only imaginary.

If you start acting as if these things acutally existed and find it difficult to distinguish reality from fiction - that's where the problems start. Then the "using condoms is a sin" and "let's not take our kid to the doctor, god can heal him/her" stupidity is just one step away.

What you don't seem to fully appreciate is that for we humans, reality IS A FICTION. It is the image of it that we have invented in our minds. That and the very minimal immediate experience of actuality that we get through our senses is all the reality we have. I already know that my idea of reality is probably wrong. I already know that we are all designed to be crazy. I'm not the one pretending that I own any "truth".

That's why I'm just interested in what works. That's why all I can offer is evidence of God's existence, and not proof.

 

[DarkSun]

I find beauty in science as well. I'm a chemist. My first awe-struck science moment was in my Grade 10 chemistry class. My chemistry teacher was showing us the different factors that affect the rate of a reaction: concentration, surface area, addition of a catalyst, temperature, etc.

He took a mound of lycopodium powder and tried to light it directly. Didn't really work. He then set up a Bunsen burner, took a handful of powder and threw it through the flame and shouted "I AM A WIZARD" as this fireball jetted out towards the amazed classroom. I was in awe over something so simple.

So by throwing it, he increased the surface area of the powder to ignite it, right?

They would never get away with that in schools these days.

Which is a pity, because something like that sounds so cool!

 

[PureX]

Art is pretty to look at. Music is pleasant to the ears. It can be a great way to convey your deepest emotions or to depict a significant event. It's meant to be enjoyed. But it doesn't have much of a purpose, other than entertainment.

That is such a typically american attitude, and so wrong. Art is the mirror of a society. It's the mechanism though which we get to see for ourselves who we really are, as opposed to who we think we are (as from propaganda). That's why the first thing fascist dictators eliminate when they attempt to take over a nation is the art. They ban all art, and immediately replace it with propaganda so that the people can't see what they are being made to become. Then they use the propaganda to turn the people against each other. To make them all "tattletales" against their neighbors.

Here in the U.S. the fascist wanna-bes among us can't ban art, outright, though they would dearly love to do so, so instead they employ an endless slander campaign against it's value. They convince people that art is frivolous, and that it's "just whatever we like". That way when an artist does something that forces society to look at it's own flaws, the fascists just dismiss it as "bad art", because it's unpleasant to look at. And as we all know here in the land where all things are consumer products, art is just another item being offered up for our entertainment pleasure.

But I - and others like me - find beauty, utility, and purpose in science. That's what makes it a worthy pursuit. It contributes to the knowledge of mankind and takes it far beyond what we can dream of.

Science may contribute to our knowledge, but it contributes nothing to our wisdom. As a result, we become more and more clever, and more and more powerful, but we don't become any wiser. Science increases knowledge, but art increases wisdom. Science by itself is just a process. It has no soul. It has no vision. It has no morality.

 

[Commoner]

Because I don't know if God is actual, or if God is actual, what is God's nature.
But I don't know that they are only imaginary.
What you don't seem to fully appreciate is that for we humans, reality IS A FICTION. It is the image of it that we have invented in our minds. That and the very minimal immediate experience of actuality that we get through our senses is all the reality we have. I already know that my idea of reality is probably wrong. I already know that we are all designed to be crazy. I'm not the one pretending that I own any "truth".

That's why I'm just interested in what works. That's why all I can offer is evidence of God's existence, and not proof.

Even if you accept the goofy notion that "reality is fiction", that still doesn't mean every fiction is equally worthy of acceptance - we have to be able to distinguish between the good fiction ("Oh look, a table") and the bad fiction ("Oh look, an alien in my garden talking to Jesus explaining to the alien why condoms are a sin"). We might use "experience" to decide on trivial matters, but in more complex matters, we use science (and the scientific method) to distinguish the "bad fiction" from the "good fiction", because it produces the most reliable results based on the incomplete information we have available.

If you can't tell that Peter Pan is just a figment of someone's imagination, you've got a problem. If your "fiction" clashes strongly with the "fiction" of other people, you most likely have a problem. We have institutions to "help" people like that.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

That is such a typically american attitude, and so wrong. Art is the mirror of a society. It's the mechanism though which we get to see for ourselves who we really are, as opposed to who we think we are (as from propaganda). That's why the first thing fascist dictators eliminate when they attempt to take over a nation is the art. They ban all art, and immediately replace it with propaganda so that the people can't see what they are being made to become. Then they use the propaganda to turn the people against each other. To make them all "tattletales" against their neighbors.

Yes, art is a reflection of society, but it is not a reflection of truth per se. Art strives to achieve the "truth" within the human mind, to unite and relate every human being and to accentuate the human experience, but drawing a pretty picture that "moves me" in no way suggest that the picture is actually depicting what is, but it's most likely depicting what is thought to be. Showing me a picture of god and of angels and of heaven and of jesus on the cross has as much truth value as a heart-wrenching picture of a puppy sitting out in the rain. The picture is suppose to be inspiring, emotionally appealing, and held in awe, but it doesn't show us the truth about how the world (as in not society) works.

Science may contribute to our knowledge, but it contributes nothing to our wisdom. As a result, we become more and more clever, and more and more powerful, but we don't become any wiser. Science increases knowledge, but art increases wisdom. Science by itself is just a process. It has no soul. It has no vision. It has no morality.

Science is the pursuit of knowledge, what one does with the knowledge is another matter. So far the use of science has had alot more to offer than art or religon has ever tried to accomplish.