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To The Jesus Myth Theorist

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Because I don't give a darn about yours. I wasn't talking to you.
So you quote me, and address what I said, but you weren't talking to me? Whatever you say. But if you don't want to talk to me, please to address me, or what I said. That will reduce the confusion.

(I also suspect that this is nothing more than you dodging the fact that you have no real arguments).
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Sorry, man. I love you and all, but I rarely watch videos posted to threads.

So you demand evidence and refuse to review it?? :confused::(:facepalm:

And ignoring Policeman versus Fireman is worse. You don't even realize the favor that I did for you.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
That isn't how burden of proof works. So that argument fails.

How funny. All my arguments fail and all of yours prevail. It's interesting how much time you spend on assertions like that. Curious how important it seems to you.

Anyway, you're losing me, Blood. I wish you would actually post some evidence of your position and support your burden of proof, but I obviously can't force you to do that.

Let me know if there's anything specific you want to discuss.

Meanwhile, the most likely conclusion is that no Jesus actually lived in first-century Judea. Maybe a proto-Jesus, years earlier, but no man crucified in 33 CE.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
How funny. All my arguments fail and all of yours prevail. It's interesting how much time you spend on assertions like that. Curious how important it seems to you.

Anyway, you're losing me, Blood. I wish you would actually post some evidence of your position and support your burden of proof, but I obviously can't force you to do that.

Let me know if there's anything specific you want to discuss.

Meanwhile, the most likely conclusion is that no Jesus actually lived in first-century Judea. Maybe a proto-Jesus, years earlier, but no man crucified in 33 CE.

I'm trying desperately to pull the conversation up to your level, but you refuse to engage meaningfully in debate.

Fallingblood - for whatever reason - hasn't referred to the YouTube evidence. I know that he knows because he's preparing for a PhD in New Testament, and he won't have a chance unless he knows all about the KTF fragments.

With every blessed syllable, KTF embodies indisputable proof that Jesus lives!
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Meanwhile, the most likely conclusion is that no Jesus actually lived in first-century Judea. Maybe a proto-Jesus, years earlier, but no man crucified in 33 CE.

If this is the only joke you've got, you'll never make it in stand-up.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I quoted you to let you know I was dismissing your irrelevant intrusion into my debate with someone else. Think whatever you want. You've shown you possess very little real intellect. My care continuum about it is near infinitesimal.

Whatever fallingblood lacks in intelligence, he makes up for by good judgment and powerful reasoning.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I quoted you to let you know I was dismissing your irrelevant intrusion into my debate with someone else. Think whatever you want. You've shown you possess very little real intellect. My care continuum about it is near infinitesimal.

This is an open debate forum, there is no such thing as intruding in on a debate here.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
***mod advisory***

please stick to the topic at hand and refrain from making this personal. Your point can be made without resorting to this.
 
Last edited:

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
And ignoring Policeman versus Fireman is worse. You don't even realize the favor that I did for you.

I'm sure that all of your Kermit cartoon evidence regarding the (non) historical Jesus is of the very finest sort and that in the face of it, I'd be speechless -- entirely unable to refute a single slapstickish point.

Maybe that's why I don't watch it. Subconscious fear of being proven wrong. I don't know, really.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I'm trying desperately to pull the conversation up to your level, but you refuse to engage meaningfully in debate.

Fallingblood - for whatever reason - hasn't referred to the YouTube evidence. I know that he knows because he's preparing for a PhD in New Testament, and he won't have a chance unless he knows all about the KTF fragments.

With every blessed syllable, KTF embodies indisputable proof that Jesus lives!

I think I may just have to stick with the YouTube evidence for now on. It seems that it may be a little more productive. Maybe this will work. [youtube]WkPh8As-y6E[/youtube]
Subway! (Vintage Sesame Street) - YouTube
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
REPOSTING SO IT GET'S NOTICED
***MOD ADVISORY***

Please stick to the topic at hand and refrain from making this personal. Your point can be made without resorting to this.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I'm sure that all of your Kermit cartoon evidence regarding the (non) historical Jesus is of the very finest sort and that in the face of it, I'd be speechless -- entirely unable to refute a single slapstickish point.

Maybe that's why I don't watch it. Subconscious fear of being proven wrong. I don't know, really.

There's no reason to fear KTF. I'll make a different thread so as not to derail this one.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
There's no reason to fear KTF. I'll make a different thread so as not to derail this one.

If you make it, I will come.

Except I'm easily lost. If I don't show up in the new thread after a fortnight or so, would you send a pack of those St. Bernards for me -- the ones with the kegs around their necks?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
It doesn't seem likely to me. I'm sure there were a bunch of sects and cults around all the time back then. I don't see why an historian would necessarily mention them.

All the historians I just mentioned dealt with that topic. What you're proposing, that the actual Jerusalem church was comprised of followers of a proto-Jesus who had lived 200 years before the period we're discussing, isn't worth introducing into a discussion like this unless we're willing to examine the idea and see how it holds up to a little logical speculation.

Put it this way: if there actually were a cult or sect centered around another Yoshua who lived sometime around 200 BCE, that would put there emergence at right about the same time as the emergence of the Essenes and the Qumran sect.

Cults are organic, they either grow of whither and fade away into obscurity or (more often) extinction.

Almost all cults that are centered around an actual, living human being die off shortly after the death of their central figure.

The few that don't tend to grow and attract more followers and greater attention, acceptance, and recognition. As with any organic entity, the basic rule for any cult or sect is grow or die.

So basically, any cult that had managed to exist for 200 years would have had to have grown substantially. At least to the point where they would have been known and noticeable, especially in a setting as focused on religion as first century Judea.

And even disregarding all of that, Josephus talks about several cults and movements centered around Messianic claimants during this period.

Given all that, it just seems unlikely that any cult or sect such as your describing---especially with an established history of 200 years behind it---would have escaped notice completely.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It doesn't seem likely to me. I'm sure there were a bunch of sects and cults around all the time back then. I don't see why an historian would necessarily mention them.
All the historians I just mentioned dealt with that topic. What you're proposing, that the actual Jerusalem church was comprised of followers of a proto-Jesus who had lived 200 years before the period we're discussing, isn't worth introducing into a discussion like this unless we're willing to examine the idea and see how it holds up to a little logical speculation.
More. Given ...
I'm not sure why Jay wants to talk in detail about the first-century church at Jerusalem, but as I've told him, I don't know much about it and can't see any real relevance.
it is clear that what he proposes is supported by willful ignorance. This is not only intellectually irresponsible, it's necessary if one is to avoid basing one's mythicist fantasy on absurd conspiracy theories and the implicit claim that nascent Christianity was a covey of idiots and frauds.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
What you're proposing, that the actual Jerusalem church was comprised of followers of a proto-Jesus who had lived 200 years before the period we're discussing, isn't worth introducing into a discussion like this unless we're willing to examine the idea and see how it holds up to a little logical speculation.

That isn't what I've proposed.

But I certainly agree that anything which I propose is up for examination. It's why I'm here and why I urge other debaters to address my points with evidence and argumentation.

Put it this way: if there actually were a cult or sect centered around another Yoshua who lived sometime around 200 BCE, that would put there emergence at right about the same time as the emergence of the Essenes and the Qumran sect.

I don't know where you've gotten the 200-year number. Maybe I accidentally typed such a thing, but I can't remember doing it. Anyway, your argument in this message doesn't seem relevant to my position, since I don't think the proto-Jesus lived in 200 BCE. But I'll address it anyway.

The character behind Jesus may have lived 50 years before the stories began to arise about him, or he may have lived 300 years before. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is when the myths began to grow.

And I think the Jerusalem Church could easily have begun to form itself around 0 CE. As I say, I'm not a student of the Jerusalem Church. If there's a reason it couldn't have existed then, someone will have to instruct me.

Given all that, it just seems unlikely that any cult or sect such as your describing---especially with an established history of 200 years behind it---would have escaped notice completely.

As I say, I don't know anything about a 200-year-old sect.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
That isn't what I've proposed.

But I certainly agree that anything which I propose is up for examination. It's why I'm here and why I urge other debaters to address my points with evidence and argumentation.



I don't know where you've gotten the 200-year number. Maybe I accidentally typed such a thing, but I can't remember doing it. Anyway, your argument in this message doesn't seem relevant to my position, since I don't think the proto-Jesus lived in 200 BCE. But I'll address it anyway.

The character behind Jesus may have lived 50 years before the stories began to arise about him, or he may have lived 300 years before. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is when the myths began to grow.

And I think the Jerusalem Church could easily have begun to form itself around 0 CE. As I say, I'm not a student of the Jerusalem Church. If there's a reason it couldn't have existed then, someone will have to instruct me.



As I say, I don't know anything about a 200-year-old sect.

Was this proto-Jesus executed? If so, what were the charges? Did this proto-Jesus have a predecessor like the Jesus of the Gospels?
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Was this proto-Jesus executed? If so, what were the charges? Did this proto-Jesus have a predecessor like the Jesus of the Gospels?

I don't know if he was executed. I'm sure lots of wild-eyed preachers probably were.

On the other hand, I find the crucifixion suspicious. Whenever I read a story with too many dramatic highpoints in it -- even if that story is claimed as truth -- I begin to wonder if the writer hasn't taken liberties.

In the end, I don't think we can know much at all about the proto-Jesus. It's just a guessing game.

I don't know what you mean about a predecessor. You'll have to expand. John the B?
 
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