To those moderators who remain ...

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I feel like the reported post forum should not be open on display. To make a compromise though for the comfort of the members, I would say that a thread dealing only with violations that prove to be violations is made. The names of the people reporting and those who got reported on are unimportant and should remain undisclosed. The people involved will know who they are, and nobody else need that info. I am in support of this idea for at-a-glance on banned members and why they got banned. All the other info as to who told it, and who reported it, is irrelevant and keeping that info private will make moderation more transparent, while at the same time keeping the privacy and dignity of members intact.

 

[Buttons*]

Uhm... Buttons, it's all cool. But, talking about closed doors, don't you think we should do away with private messages as well? This might also be a place where members vent about moderators and other members. I say, we open up the moderators' room but at the same time we publish all PMs from the database in a separate forum. No censorship. Deal?

I'm totally game

I'll let you see whatever you want... you might have to pay a little first for some things :flirt:

Honestly, There's a difference between talking to a friend about an issue in your life, and then flaming about members Oh, but it's ok because no one can see it. Right?

 

[Buttons*]

I think you may have missed the point of what Buttons was saying. She was saying that there should be an opportunity for members to see what is said when discussing reported posts, because members don't know if the dicussions are kept on the topic of the report, or move to complaining about the poster.

Pretty much

 

[Buttons*]

No Llama, I didn't miss it. Not this time, at least. You know better than me that these discussions are handled pretty professionally. I also understand the curiosity: it's similar to how students are wondering what goes on behind the door of the Teachers' Room. (forgive the metaphor, I was a teacher for many years, it's the first thing that comes to my mind).

I think you did, actually.

Moderators are welcome to add any ideas to the discussion we are currently having, they may also add the one about opening the reporting process to public view and we will think about it. Personally, I am against this one.

I dont suggest that every post in the mod forum be brought to our attention. That would be silly!

Even if, as has been suggested elsewhere, we made it open to viewing but not posting, what's to stop the members from posting about it elsewhere? Or talk about it in PMs? We would have tons of posts not even about how moderators handled any particular issue but about how poster X was right and poster Y was not. If anything, it could only add to personal conflicts and not help to resolve them. This is just human nature, nothing wrong with it but I can't imagine what good we'd achieve from such a move.

I dont think that people care enough to conspire in PMs LOL but that's just me.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Uhm... Buttons, it's all cool. But, talking about closed doors, don't you think we should do away with private messages as well? This might also be a place where members vent about moderators and other members. I say, we open up the moderators' room but at the same time we publish all PMs from the database in a separate forum. No censorship. Deal?

Deal.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Even if, as has been suggested elsewhere, we made it open to viewing but not posting, what's to stop the members from posting about it elsewhere? Or talk about it in PMs? We would have tons of posts not even about how moderators handled any particular issue but about how poster X was right and poster Y was not. If anything, it could only add to personal conflicts and not help to resolve them. This is just human nature, nothing wrong with it but I can't imagine what good we'd achieve from such a move.

Transparency is messy ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To answer that really quickly two words : stability and growth.

Those are interesting goals. All else being equal they are characterized by being opportunistic and devoid of principle. I suspect that most abusively bureaucratic leadership is committed to stability and growth (in that order by the way).

 

[robtex]

Those are interesting goals. All else being equal they are characterized by being opportunistic and devoid of principle. I suspect that most abusively bureaucratic leadership is committed to stability and growth (in that order by the way).

elaborate on that. Which and what principles are they devoid of? What principles do you expect from staff and how do my two create a conflict to those?

what are your goals as a poster ?

 

[lilithu]

To answer that really quickly two words : stability and growth. I realize I have a position where I can affect both in a positive manner and have chosen to act on that.

Those are interesting goals. All else being equal they are characterized by being opportunistic and devoid of principle. I suspect that most abusively bureaucratic leadership is committed to stability and growth (in that order by the way).

While I'm not quite so negative about stability and growth, I have to agree with Jay that your answer is puzzling, Rob. Stability and growth are only good if the thing that's being stabilized and grown is good. Could you please elaborate on how your first sentence ties with your second sentence? Thanks.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Understand what you two are saying and put into this idea into play:

For example: Lets call

x= person reporting a post
y= person whose post is reported
z= mod staff involved in the decision regarding the reported post.



X reports a post and while reporting that post X wants:

a) to make it public that they reported that post
b) private that they reported that post

If X wanted B than they are not restricted from reporting posts. There reasons may be fear of private conversation with the person he reported (aka wanting to avoid conflict) or may not wanted to get involved but wanted to make the post known. Those posters, who are reserved are not prohibited by the paradigm presented from reporting post if privacy is what makes them feel that they can make one.

Y, who is being reported is either

a) in violation of a rule
b) not in violation of a rule

Either way, his/her dirty laundry is now public. Now lets say the violation is a violation ....what are the chances, now that we threw this into a public forum for you guys to see and made speckle of the incident. Every time that is done I can guarantee you a good percentage of those people will instantly stop visiting here.

If we find it isn't a post violation they still wonder if some of you still feel it is wrong and likely either way you guys will make threads on your thoughts on the decision creating a forum where we talk about moderation and forum rules more than religion politics and philosophy....and where some poster innocent of a violation or guilty is at the heart of some elongated discussion.

Z= the mod staff that makes the decision is now responsible for answering a post audit on every decision made. Much of our proficiency is measured in the time it takes from receiving a complaint to completing the action. With your structure that idea is down the drain.

I am going to finish the last two points to this idea on the next post but realize your idea is making more problems and solving few. I will finish this in the next post.

When x is reporting, x can state (1) can reveal my id (2) I prefer to remain anonimous. For case (2), mod will have to spend more time seeing whether the reporting is justified or not. In case (1), since x is ready to be transparent, it is simple to handle.

The Mod will then consider the case, and then contact y to tell y about the decision, and let y know who x is or just tell y that x is anonimous. Then let y knows whether he like to openly discuss his case or just discuss the case in PM with the Mod.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

elaborate on that. Which and what principles are they devoid of?

What principles are they based upon?

 

[robtex]

While I'm not quite so negative about stability and growth, I have to agree with Jay that your answer is puzzling, Rob. Stability and growth are only good if the thing that's being stabilized and grown is good. Could you please elaborate on how your first sentence ties with your second sentence? Thanks.

Let me go backwards and start with growth. Forums grow or they risk dying. I spend time on big boards and watch other boards and have noticed forums either stagnate or they grow. The very first board I posted on was called abudokan.com As a quick forenote, if you google it you are gonna get spyware loaded on your pc inless you have a hardware or software fire or are running the windows (or mac equiv) firewall on your computer. Someone bought the domain name and it put spyware on my machine and it may or may not on yours but just a heads up.

Sorry for that wanted to say that real quick, but abudokan didn't make it. I don't know the reason why but I had about 500 posts on there and the forum had maybe 1000 members plus, of which a few dozen were active on a daily basis. I was a member of that community for about 18 months. I watched the forum die along with thousands of posts on technical material on martial arts. I realize that won't mean anything to most posters on here but realize it did for the posters and myself on that board. I use to store parts of home typed training manuals on that site (so others could see and share their ideas on it) and had to retype what I could remember. I lost contacts I was very close to (by not exchanging emails with them beforehand) and though I don't have a desire to post on a martial arts forum now, haven't really found anything close to it with the closest being planetjujitsu.com

What I took away from that is two-fold. Forums that don't grow risk death and being a part of a forum that bites the dust is a big loss. Growth is the best counter agent to that. A forum that grows has market value and is much safer than one that doesn't If Todd, had not found a buyer due to lack of buyer interest do you think a year from now he would still be bank rolling it or would it cease to exist? There is no way to know the answer to the question but what I do know is that RF has enough appeal to where that isn't really a threat. What gives it an appeal is that growth and perceived (and hopefully real) return on investment (roi). With that in mind I feel it is my personal responsiblity to have an interest in the growth of the forum as a way of protecting its existence.

In regards to stability there is a range of ideas of what posters feel is a pleasant posting environment. What that range is may vary to some degree from year to year or it may be stable. A big part of my job is to help with stability by preforming my duties. I measure it, and this is a personal opinion but we do discuss stuff like this in mod forums, in terms of poster retention as a benchmark for overall poster satisfaction. I realize some of you may see this as "imperfect" but I other than poster feedback (which is also very important) it is one of the better ways to me to attach a quantifiable expressions to a subjective idea. I attach stability to poster retention even when the backdrop is controversial topics and sensative issues.


I am assuming I am getting push-back to ask about my loyalties. I find that healthy and legit and want to qualify it by my sunday today.

I had been invited on a hiking trip today. My martial arts training partner may have given me a sunday evening of bagwork (not sure cause I didn't check in with him). I got offered for tea and coffee with two groups of friends. If we didn't have our current situation I would have normally done a log in for about two hours of which less than 30 would have been posting. Instead, I spent all day in this thread and others where my character has been challenged, my integrity question and my values challenged. I am not made upset or disturbed, but understand if I wasn't committed to my position here, I would have hiked, today, done bag work, or had coffee and or tea. Things much less stressful than this.

Every other mod that spent the day on here had the same choices. I am not asking for gratitude or anything else, but more using this information to show you my commitment for stability. And it wasn't just me but much of the staff. Of the other forums you participate on, do you think you would have seen that level of commitment to that forum by staff?

 

[lilithu]

Let me go backwards and start with growth. Forums grow or they risk dying...

Yeah, I get that. But I don't think you got me. A forum may risk dying if it doesn't grow, but if the forum isn't "good" then who cares whether it dies or not?

Now, before anyone starts accusing me of bashing RF, let me explain. I love RF. That's why I'm still here. That's why I care about these events. But I love it because it is the kind of forum that it is. If it became a different kind of forum simply for the sake of growth and sustainability, I might not like it any more.

And so you say that you're staying because you feel that you can contribute to stability and growth. And I am asking you, what aspects of RF are you hoping to help stabilize and grow?

I am assuming I am getting push-back to ask about my loyalties.

Speaking for myself, yes and no. I am asking about your loyalties to certain people. But I am asking about your loyalties to a vision. Jay can obviously speak for himself but I think that's what he means by "What principles are they based on?"

And honestly Rob, I hope you believe me, I am not assuming anything negative about your staying. If anyone can wade through this calmly and rationally, it would be you. I simply want to know if you value the same things about RF that I value. (And if we differ, that's fine.)

 

[markablue]

Guys, the mods are aware of the suggestion to make some of the mod actions public. As I said, we are taking most of your suggestions into consideration. Personally, I am against it as I believe the forums should be focused on debating religious issues and general topics, not personal grudges. I may be outvoted, though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Every other mod that spent the day on here had the same choices. I am not asking for gratitude or anything else, but more using this information to show you my commitment for stability.

Previously ...

Which and what principles are they devoid of?

What principles are they based upon?

Leaving aside your curious question, it occurs to me that some things warrant commitment more than others. I would suggest that 'stability' is an attribute rather than a principle.

 

[Mister_T]

If, in some other context, you were to list the many historical figures you find worthy of respect, how many would owe their presence on that list to their willingness to pick a side?

I don't have any particular historical figures in mind, but this conflict was something that I wasn't apart of and had no business in, in the first place. Both "sides" have treated me as such...much like two friends who had a disagreement and decided to part ways view, of a mutual friend.

If my stance is not "worthy" of anyones respect, so be it. I'm not going to compromise my integrity to please a group of people.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not understand how the question of "principle" relate to an open forum.
A forum can have an ethos.. and one that is worth preserving.
Only people can have principles and they will vary hugely in a mixed forum like this.
It is even difficult to get agreement on what are "good principles" and what are " bad principles"
Why some staff are still here and others are gone I feel is largely down to their personal perceptions of what has "gone on"
From a personal point of view I never wanted to be a "Mod" in the first place, at my time of life ambitions like that are long past.
However, I did accept the task and so will do it as long as the interests of the Forum and its members coincide with my own perceptions, and I am able to continue to do a useful Job.

 

[lunamoth]

I would just like to say that the moderators who have remained all have my utmost respect and I think they all have done and will continue to do a great job. I am very sorry to see them coming under fire here. These are people, friends, who have devoted time and energy, and a lot of care, in trying to make this forum open, friendly, interesting and safe for all, and that is not easy.

I would love to think that members would all work to make this place enjoyable with as little moderation as possible, and most of the time that is the case. However, it is true that it only takes one or two trolls to create havok and drive some members away. I don't know about you, but I don't want to see this place be one of 'survival of the ruthless.'

Yes, we do have principles here. Interfaith communication, civility, freedom from personal abuse and harrassment, and a reasonable amount of peacefulness. When we do this right the forum will grow and be stable.

Anyway, I would like to thank all of the mods who have stayed.

Laurie

 

[Mike182]

Jay, i can understand and respect all of the staff, current and past, for their individual decisions on the recent clashes. i chose to leave because i felt that my presense on the staff combined with my disagreement what the management wanted to do would not be able to be turned into a positive... so putting the forum first, i resigned my position, because a constant negative on the staff in moderation discussion is never going to be a good thing. i can easily see how others are not as against the proposed changes as myself and others were, will be able to work with the new management, so they should get no criticism from me for that.

i would hope that non of the staff or members have lost respect for me for resigning, and i have every confidence in all of my friends here to respect my decision and the manor in which i choose to act upon that decision.

 

[Mister Emu]

To those who remain: why? Is it that you endorse the new owners or that you covet your position? I know this sounds like a harsh question but I'm sincerely interested in your answer. I'm beginning to view the "Mod" label as a badge of dishonor designating those who've turned their backs on those who have served here for some time. I realize that it is an uninformed reaction and I'm more than willing to hear from those who remain.

Thanks.

Hey,

Sorry I didn't post before on this thread.

The reason I stayed on as a moderator isn't because of me or my position, honestly the time spent moderating isn't the most fun in the world and it isn't because of the owners, who I do believe want the best for the forums. It is for the forum itself, I have spent countless hours through three years, learning, laughing, debating, and just enjoying the time here. I would like for this forum to remain a place where people can do the same, and as long as I feel I can help facilitate that, even the littlest bit, I will stay. If I feel that I can not, I will resign.