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To Those Whose Ears and Eyes and Hearts are Open

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So I'm noticing a trend in proselytizing religions. It goes something like this:
If you listen/read/pray with a pure heart and open eyes/ears/heart, then you will come to believe in the same thing I have come to believe.
I've heard this from Christians, Muslims and Baha'i here. If I've heard you saying it, presumably you've all heard each other saying it as well. So here's the thing:
At what point do you say to yourself, "We're all making the exact same claim as the way to find faith in the religion we already believe in. Maybe all having a pure heart and opened orifices does is reinforce a belief or intensify a leaning that we already had."​

I mean think about it. There's a good chance that in the over one billion people in the religion you are not a part of, at least one or two of its more mild adherents was feeling terribly distraught and truly opened their hearts to whatever was out there. And came away with even deeper faith in their religion just like you did.

Maybe it just really doesn't work unless you're already inclined to believe in the religion you're a part of?

What would happen if a believer read/listened/thought about, say, the Theory of Evolution, or the Big Bang Cosmology, or some other "atheistic" writing, with a pure and open heart and mind, as pure and open as when they read their holy book?

Would they come to believe it as well?
I'm sure that there have been lots of believers who have converted from their religions, or modified their beliefs, upon doing so...

'Conversion' can be a two-way street, you know.:D

There's a trend in prosleytising?

Behold Comrades! a philosophical text of atheistic-materialism and scientific socialism! Believe as the Party tells you! The Party is always right! It is Science! Anyone who says otherwise is a counter-revolutionary and an gutter agent of imperialism! :D

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm

If you read with a pure heart and open eyes you will come to believe as I believe...

...that 2+2=5!

*long awkward silence broken by occasional coughing*

Screw it...

...go worship some other genocidal dictator who wants to rule the world and all the people in it!

At least mine has the advantage of not being invisible! :D

Somehow I don't think it will catch on Tumah...:)
 

GodsVoice

Active Member
I get it. You make a very valid point. I find it interesting that Judaism does not proselytize (at least as far as ive been told)but the religions that are offshoots of Judaism do, such as my own. Hmmm.

None of us saints and prophets who were used to testify on behalf of God did any proselytizing. It's religious people who steal our words and use them for their selfish benefit who do all the proselytizing. Jesus, Peter, Timothy, Stephen, Paul and myself only preach the Gospel to those who God chose to listen to his voice. He puts them in our path and since they already know God somewhat, they love listening to his voice and the sweetness of the knowledge that pours out from it. Some of these believers may try use some of our words and try convince someone else to come and listen to us but usually they aren't chosen to participate in the Gospel.

The people who are chosen to come and listen to the Gospel of God and completely reject it are part of the crowd that eventually gets us killed according to God's will ( plan ).

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Psalm 79.
1. O God, the heathen have come into thy inheritance; they have defiled the holy temple; they have laid Jerusalem in ruins.
2. They have given the bodies of thy servants to the birds of the air for food, the flesh of thy saints to the beasts of the earth.
3. They have poured out their blood like water round about Jerusalem, and there was none to bury them.
4. We have become a taunt to our neighbors, mocked and derided by those round us.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

Revelation 11
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 12
17: Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Revelation 16
5: And I heard the angel of water say, "Just art thou in these thy judgments, thou who art and wast, O Holy One.
6: For men have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink. It is their due!"

Revelation 17
4: The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication;
5: and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth's abominations."
6: And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly.

Revelation 18
17: In one hour all this wealth has been laid waste." And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off
18: and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, "What city was like the great city?"
19: And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! In one hour she has been laid waste.
20: Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!"

24: And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth."

Revelation 19
1: After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2: for his judgments are true and just; he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants."

Revelation 20
4: Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 1,000 year reign of Christ is ending with the death of the servant who is writing this sentence.
 

Parchment

Active Member
Maybe it just really doesn't work unless you're already inclined to believe in the religion you're a part of?
What pans out in the end?
Funny thing to me is that top thinkers have been planning to colonize other planets for years, I can only imagine who will be the leaders in this new world.
 

arthra

Baha'i
What you have done and what has been done by followers of your religion, may not be the same.

Proselytizing is not one of our approaches:

Shoghi Effendi writes:

'Care, however, should, at all times, be exercised, lest in their eagerness to further the international interests of the Faith they frustrate their purpose, and turn away, through any act that might be misconstrued as an attempt to proselytize and bring undue pressure upon them, those whom they wish to win over to their Cause'.

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 592)
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Proselytizing is not one of our approaches:

Shoghi Effendi writes:

'Care, however, should, at all times, be exercised, lest in their eagerness to further the international interests of the Faith they frustrate their purpose, and turn away, through any act that might be misconstrued as an attempt to proselytize and bring undue pressure upon them, those whom they wish to win over to their Cause'.

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 592)
Well, I mean it is. You just don't call it proselytizing because of the negative connotations, you call it pioneering. Its maybe a little less aggressive, but I mean, essentially what you're doing is trying to promote conversion to Bah'ai faith.
I mean compare that with Judaism who doesn't proselytize. We actually discourage conversion, let alone sending people to other countries to teach people about Jewish beliefs.
 

Sakeenah

Well-Known Member
What I was more questioning, was the wisdom in telling someone who isn't of your religion, that if they were to truly open their hearts, they would come to believe in your religion.

I wouldn't say this to a non muslim or a muslim. I believe opening our hearts and guidance is in God's Hands,He is the turner of hearts.

To say God guided me because I have a pure heart or it's because I prayed and listened is imo a sign of arrogance.To me belief/religion is a journey towards God, I might be guided in one issue but wrong in another.

At the same time I do advise people (muslims/non muslims) who asked me for advise to do their research don't blindly follow.Be openminded and yes pray..talk to God to guide them to a path that's best for them. Would I be happy if their journey leads them to Islam, yes.. not because I'm proselyitising my ideas because I see how it effected my life positively so it's naturally to want it for others.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So I'm noticing a trend in proselytizing religions. It goes something like this:
If you listen/read/pray with a pure heart and open eyes/ears/heart, then you will come to believe in the same thing I have come to believe.
I've heard this from Christians, Muslims and Baha'i here. If I've heard you saying it, presumably you've all heard each other saying it as well. So here's the thing:
At what point do you say to yourself, "We're all making the exact same claim as the way to find faith in the religion we already believe in. Maybe all having a pure heart and opened orifices does is reinforce a belief or intensify a leaning that we already had."​

I mean think about it. There's a good chance that in the over one billion people in the religion you are not a part of, at least one or two of its more mild adherents was feeling terribly distraught and truly opened their hearts to whatever was out there. And came away with even deeper faith in their religion just like you did.

Maybe it just really doesn't work unless you're already inclined to believe in the religion you're a part of?
The thing is if you close your heart and open your book, God will tell you, "every inclination of mans heart is evil, even from his youth". So at that point, look at the state of religion based on people opening their hearts and orifices. Ask yourself, who is true, God or man's heart and orifices.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So I'm noticing a trend in proselytizing religions. It goes something like this:
If you listen/read/pray with a pure heart and open eyes/ears/heart, then you will come to believe in the same thing I have come to believe.
I've heard this from Christians, Muslims and Baha'i here. If I've heard you saying it, presumably you've all heard each other saying it as well. So here's the thing:
At what point do you say to yourself, "We're all making the exact same claim as the way to find faith in the religion we already believe in. Maybe all having a pure heart and opened orifices does is reinforce a belief or intensify a leaning that we already had."​

I mean think about it. There's a good chance that in the over one billion people in the religion you are not a part of, at least one or two of its more mild adherents was feeling terribly distraught and truly opened their hearts to whatever was out there. And came away with even deeper faith in their religion just like you did.

Maybe it just really doesn't work unless you're already inclined to believe in the religion you're a part of?

The only right and decent thing to do then, I feel, is to humbly offer you my sincerest apologies if you have felt I have exerted undue pressure on you or anyone here as that was never the intention.

If I do overstep these boundaries I would ask kindly if you could remind me as we do have an obligation to teach our Faith but not proselytise so it's a fine line which is easily overstepped by unwisdom.

This is a letter here from the Universal House of Justice explaining the difference.

http://www.bahai.org/library/author...ouse-of-justice/messages/#d=19820103_001&f=f1

An excerpt regarding why we teach:

The responsibility of the Bahá’ís to teach the Faith is very great. The contraction of the world and the onward rush of events require us to seize every chance open to us to touch the hearts and minds of our fellowmen. The Message of Bahá’u’lláh is God’s guidance for mankind to overcome the difficulties of this age of transition and move forward into the next stage of its evolution, and human beings have the right to hear it. (Universal House of Justice, Haifa ,Israel)

Again I humbly offer my sincerest apologies to you or anyone who feels I offended and I greatly appreciate you pointing out my unwisdom.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I think for many religious laymen, faith is almost purely emotional and cultural. Having a strong emotional attachment makes it much harder to let go of, obviously, and easier to 'feel'. Secondly, it can often be a case of 'my ancestors followed such and such, so I'm following such and such...'

Those people who take the time out to study their faith in depth, I've noticed, do not use this 'argument' of emotion. If anything, using emotions to bring someone to your faith is, in my opinion, manipulative; some people are very easily swayed and emotions are hard to ignore. These conversions are not true. They are based on feelings.

But feelings are so much easier than taking the time out to study, study, reflect and more study...

The problem is that appealing to emotion is all that most religions can attempt do, due to being devoid of evidence and logic.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
The thing is if you close your heart and open your book, God will tell you, "every inclination of mans heart is evil, even from his youth". So at that point, look at the state of religion based on people opening their hearts and orifices. Ask yourself, who is true, God or man's heart and orifices.

The problem is that what your religions presume about god came out of man's orifices.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
No, it came out of a pen. God said, write this down in a book and the man wrote it down in a book.

God is telling me "type this down in a post" and I typed it in this post. This is his message: "I The Lord your God declare all religious texts apocryphal and thus are henceforth to be repudiated."
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
A reading from the First Book of Robert:

"And it is written: 'The things written down by Man are not worth tuppence, even if they actually are the inspired words of God; except perhaps as a direction-post on a rural road, or a sign at a historic overlook, or a source of amusement. For knowledge, look thee instead to nature, and how you can test it. And even then, don't unquestioningly believe what you think you find there, any more than you would blindly trust in the words of your fellows.'

Thus it is written, thus is how it is!"
 
So I'm noticing a trend in proselytizing religions. It goes something like this:
If you listen/read/pray with a pure heart and open eyes/ears/heart, then you will come to believe in the same thing I have come to believe.
I've heard this from Christians, Muslims and Baha'i here. If I've heard you saying it, presumably you've all heard each other saying it as well.

'Rationalists' are amongst the worst for this, and theirs is a proselytising universal faith also. Few things are as sacred to the rationalist as the sensation of their own reason, and if they are reasonable, then their worldview must be reasonable and dissenting voices must therefore be unreasonable.

They are so utterly convinced that they reach their views based on the objective analysis of carefully considered evidence that to disagree with their worldview can only result from the emotionally stunted mind of a brainwashed fool or feeble soul grasping at a comfort blanket in which to cocoon themselves to avoid the harsh light of reality.

To them, most religions are shackles of the mind which cause nothing but trouble, and if everyone was educated and intellectually honest then they'd all be rationalists too. Then we'd live happily ever after.

But we don't live happily ever after because too many silly people won't consider the evidence with an open mind and a pure heart.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
'Rationalists' are amongst the worst for this, and theirs is a proselytising universal faith also. Few things are as sacred to the rationalist as the sensation of their own reason, and if they are reasonable, then their worldview must be reasonable and dissenting voices must therefore be unreasonable.

They are so utterly convinced that they reach their views based on the objective analysis of carefully considered evidence that to disagree with their worldview can only result from the emotionally stunted mind of a brainwashed fool or feeble soul grasping at a comfort blanket in which to cocoon themselves to avoid the harsh light of reality.

To them, most religions are shackles of the mind which cause nothing but trouble, and if everyone was educated and intellectually honest then they'd all be rationalists too. Then we'd live happily ever after.

But we don't live happily ever after because too many silly people won't consider the evidence with an open mind and a pure heart.

Dude, this was beautiful.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
God is telling me "type this down in a post" and I typed it in this post. This is his message: "I The Lord your God declare all religious texts apocryphal and thus are henceforth to be repudiated."
You mumbled as you typed, thus it come out your orifice.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Maybe it just really doesn't work unless you're already inclined to believe in the religion you're a part of?
I'm pretty inclined to say if you found god then its God. Some might argue if you do it wrong then its Satan. Moses and Jesus were practicers of Magic, that is if you take any of that stuff literally.
 
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