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To Those Whose Ears and Eyes and Hearts are Open

Jedster

Jedster

Flying through space
Shem Ben Noah said:
Back when I was a born-again Xian, I was told it was OUR job, and not God's, to spread the 'good news' and not doing so was the ultimate selfish attitude if one thinks they have the 'Truth' and keeps it from others. So what to think of those who have God's Torah, the 'Truth' as they feel it is, and not only refuse to share it but actively discourages seekers?
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You should ask those who told you it was your job and,more important imo, ask yourself why you gave these people authority over you.
 
Talmai

Talmai

Member
savagewind said:
Are you certain that it is true that God alone makes a person into a believer?

The reason why I ask is because your Holy Book seems to say something very different. Matthew 28:19
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In Matthew 28:19 Jesus tells His Apostles to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." In other words their mission was to bring people into the Church in which there is salvation. But did the Apostles, or any other human beings for that matter, make people into believers? It is the Holy Spirit who makes people into believers. The Apostles and the Church's Ministry are human instruments through which God works. Salvation is of the Lord, and in Him we boast.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Talmai said:
In Matthew 28:19 Jesus tells His Apostles to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." In other words their mission was to bring people into the Church in which there is salvation. But did the Apostles, or any other human beings for that matter, make people into believers? It is the Holy Spirit who makes people into believers. The Apostles and the Church's Ministry are human instruments through which God works. Salvation is of the Lord, and in Him we boast.
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I think what you are saying is the word make should more rightly be invite.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Talmai said:
As I wrote, "The Apostles and the Church's Ministry are human instruments through which God works. Salvation is of the Lord, and in Him we boast."
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I know and I agree. I am talking about what is actually written. OK?
There exists in the Bible a command for someone to MAKE disciples.
I think I like to deal in facts.
YOU say, "God alone makes a person into a believer".
 
Talmai

Talmai

Member
savagewind said:
I know and I agree. I am talking about what is actually written. OK?
There exists in the Bible a command for someone to MAKE disciples.
I think I like to deal in facts.
YOU say, "God alone makes a person into a believer".
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God makes people believers through His chosen means. We can say therefore that the Apostles made disciples of the nations, but they were not the ones putting faith into the hearts of people. They preached the Gospel, taught the doctrines of Christ, and administered the Sacraments and other things. God was at work in them. I am not arguing against any word in the text of the Holy Scriptures.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Talmai said:
God makes people believers through His chosen means. We can say therefore that the Apostles made disciples of the nations, but they were not the ones putting faith into the hearts of people. They preached the Gospel, taught the doctrines of Christ, and administered the Sacraments and other things. God was at work in them. I am not arguing against any word in the text of the Holy Scriptures.
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So? You are in the class who believe the Holy Scriptures are as intended by the way, the truth and the life. Right?

I have demonstrated that what we have is changed from the original and you say............what?

I shall go off-off topic and repeat it.

The original has disciple (a verb) nations and we have make (a verb) disciples (a plural noun) of nations.

Can you really not see the difference?

Is my proof in any way faulty?

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/28-19.htm

How many differences are there? I count at least four differences.
1. disciple the verb has been changed to disciple a noun
2. plurality was added to the noun
3. the verb make was added
4. of, the preposition, was added

Four changed proves to me that Matthew 28:19 is no longer the words of God.
 
Servant_of_the_One1

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
My perception of truth is disputed by jews christians hindus etc. And i dispute their perception of truth.

So we shall know on judgement day who will be saved and for who there will be a painful torment
 
Shad

Shad

Veteran Member
Tumah said:
So I'm noticing a trend in proselytizing religions. It goes something like this:
If you listen/read/pray with a pure heart and open eyes/ears/heart, then you will come to believe in the same thing I have come to believe.
​
I've heard this from Christians, Muslims and Baha'i here. If I've heard you saying it, presumably you've all heard each other saying it as well. So here's the thing:
At what point do you say to yourself, "We're all making the exact same claim as the way to find faith in the religion we already believe in. Maybe all having a pure heart and opened orifices does is reinforce a belief or intensify a leaning that we already had."​

I mean think about it. There's a good chance that in the over one billion people in the religion you are not a part of, at least one or two of its more mild adherents was feeling terribly distraught and truly opened their hearts to whatever was out there. And came away with even deeper faith in their religion just like you did.

Maybe it just really doesn't work unless you're already inclined to believe in the religion you're a part of?
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I read something entirely different. What I see people asking me to suspend my evaluation and reasoning which I use to reject a religion instead I should use appeals to emotions as a basis of my evaluation of a religion. Hence heart (emotion) rather than my mind. Of course such appeals can backfire when I find something emotionally horrible within a religions text(s).

I do think such ideas can work for those searching for a religion. However I doubt such a search is based on anything but emotions anyways.
 
loverofhumanity

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Servant_of_the_One1 said:
My perception of truth is disputed by jews christians hindus etc. And i dispute their perception of truth.

So we shall know on judgement day who will be saved and for who there will be a painful torment
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What is your perception of truth because the day of judgement is here now so I can find out for you if your perception is approved of God or not and quote you His direct answer in His own Words hopefully.

No need to wait.
 
Servant_of_the_One1

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
loverofhumanity said:
What is your perception of truth because the day of judgement is here now so I can find out for you if your perception is approved of God or not and quote you His direct answer in His own Words hopefully.

No need to wait.
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If ur perception of truth includes believing in Allah and all messengers then that is the right guidance
 
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